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2013-07-08 1:18 AM

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Subject: Pain and gain
http://running.competitor.com/2012/04/training/no-pain-no-gain-how-...

Is that true?

I did a 11mile run today (new distance for me) and last 2miles were very slow and painful. I just slowly walked the last mile... since it was a training run, it didn't matter but my calves hurt lots right now. So I got into reading some articles on pain tolerance and its effects. Given the level of effort it took, how can folks run these distances in HIM and IM? I am newbie but the long (long, long) term dream is to do an IM someday. After today's run, I am forced to question myself if I have it in me to be a triathlete? Heck! I am getting dubious on "just a 26.2".

PS - Its intended to be "just a 26.2" for the IM athletes reading this post :-D


2013-07-08 1:53 AM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain

Hover-over is not working for me so I can't see your training logs (sigh), but from what you posted, the relationship between "no pain no gain" and what happened in your last run is not the issue.

If 11mi is currently your longest run, and this means you are a (relatively) new runner ... I gotta ask what kind of run training you're doing (a plan? whatever you feel like? etc.) and why.

I'm not saying a long run should be easy to complete, but in your circumstances, the entire thing should be done at more or less conversational pace (you could hold a conversation), you should have finished feeling like you could do a couple more miles at the same pace/effort, and it could leave you feeling pleasantly tired but not more.

Canned plans are not for everyone. Some people need to build up much more slowly; some need to run more frequently but less per run; some people need to run a lot slower for a lot longer (both in time as well as over time, like weeks/months/years).

It's not about pain tolerance. It's about having had adequate preparation to execute an 11-mile long training run in the manner I described, towards serving whatever long-term plans and goals you have.

2013-07-08 2:07 AM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain

Of course performing to your potential is going to require you to endure a certain level of suffering.  But as far as making "gains," that's not necessarily done by enduring pain, it's by consistent and smart training.  Running performance is not limited primarily by suffering tolerance, it's primarily limited by our running fitness. 

I thought it was funny how they cited the "phenomenon of the end spurt."  They kind of lost me after that.

2013-07-08 2:39 AM
in reply to: TriAya

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain
Yanti, always good to hear from you. I don't update my logs here so you can't see anything.

Is it possible that pain/gain relationship changes as a new runner gets accustomed to running? As you said, canned plans don't work for everyone.

I am loosely following the Hal Higdon plan and you are right, I am a new runner to longer distances. All my runs are done at conversational pace (very slow) and sometimes I even take walk breaks. But after 6.5-7miles, it starts taking me apart slowly. I just can't get used to mileages over that distance. I did 8miler 3-days ago and due to good weather it felt less uncomfortable during the run but still made my legs really soar for rest of the day.

Just got me wondering... if I need HTFU or at a certain level athletes build a mental tolerance towards pain (like military toughness).
2013-07-08 6:47 AM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain
8 Miles to 11 Miles in three days? Both 'record' distances for you?


Seems like too much too soon.
2013-07-08 7:42 AM
in reply to: VGT

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain
Originally posted by VGT

8 Miles to 11 Miles in three days? Both 'record' distances for you?


Seems like too much too soon.


Agreed. Might be good to take a look at the plan. Seems like most beginner-to-race plans will have no more than one mid-week longer run, no more than 1/2 the distance of the week's long run, while gradually increasing the long run by 10% or so through the higher mileage.

As for how anyone does an HIM or IM, never underestimate the transformative power of time and consistency. The ability to endure/recover from longer workouts takes time to build. What feels like all-out effort now can become routine and managed over time, provided you manage your training to avoid chronic injury and burnout.


2013-07-08 8:19 AM
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Subject: RE: Pain and gain
double post

Edited by ironbaby 2013-07-08 8:31 AM
2013-07-08 8:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Pain and gain

Originally posted by VGT

8 Miles to 11 Miles in three days? Both 'record' distances for you?


Seems like too much too soon.


I have done few 8-mile runs. 11 is new.

I get what you are saying but have you ever looked at the Hal Higdon plan? It plays jump-rope with long run distances... 12 to 18 to 14 to 22.... AND, it is a novice runner plan. Just saying.... again, I am not being defensive and have always followed 10% rule in past.

Originally posted by Batcheldor
As for how anyone does an HIM or IM, never underestimate the transformative power of time and consistency. The ability to endure/recover from longer workouts takes time to build. What feels like all-out effort now can become routine and managed over time, provided you manage your training to avoid chronic injury and burnout.


Although these transformations are probably different for each individual. What kind of timeframes are realistic to see these transformations? Just curious... how long to before someone not from an athletic background can see these changes in the body.
One of my IM buddies is natural born swimmer and a very good rider but he never trains for long runs (max 6mi-10mi). He still does atleast one IM/year without any planned training. I guess his body can take that kind of beating without extremely focussed training.

Edited by ironbaby 2013-07-08 8:32 AM
2013-07-08 8:33 AM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain
Originally posted by ironbaby

Given the level of effort it took, how can folks run these distances in HIM and IM?


Time and patience. Simply put, it takes time to develop the aerobic and muscular base to run long distances. Patience, because you'll reap the best long-term effects by slowly building your run base.

If I had one piece of advice to give to potential distance runners and triathletes, it would be to take their time developing their body and don't jump into longer races right away. I waited 8 years to do an IM -- time well spent, IMHO.

As far as the article? It's true enough that with athletes of equal "specs," the one with a higher pain tolerance would probably gut out the win. But that's putting the cart before the horse -- you've got to do the training first. "Mental toughness" and all that is important, but all the mental toughness in the world isn't going to make you faster than the body will go.

Good luck!

Ken
2013-07-08 10:44 AM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain

Originally posted by ironbaby
Originally posted by VGT 8 Miles to 11 Miles in three days? Both 'record' distances for you? Seems like too much too soon.
I have done few 8-mile runs. 11 is new. I get what you are saying but have you ever looked at the Hal Higdon plan? It plays jump-rope with long run distances... 12 to 18 to 14 to 22.... AND, it is a novice runner plan. Just saying.... again, I am not being defensive and have always followed 10% rule in past.
Originally posted by Batcheldor As for how anyone does an HIM or IM, never underestimate the transformative power of time and consistency. The ability to endure/recover from longer workouts takes time to build. What feels like all-out effort now can become routine and managed over time, provided you manage your training to avoid chronic injury and burnout.
Although these transformations are probably different for each individual. What kind of timeframes are realistic to see these transformations? Just curious... how long to before someone not from an athletic background can see these changes in the body. One of my IM buddies is natural born swimmer and a very good rider but he never trains for long runs (max 6mi-10mi). He still does atleast one IM/year without any planned training. I guess his body can take that kind of beating without extremely focussed training.

As something of an aside on the Higdon plans, the weeks you reference are going from a lower mileage week back to the higher long day runs.  Preceding each of the lower mileage runs (12 and 14) are runs of longer distances.  His plan does not have you jump from a longest run of 14 to a run of 22.  Distances for the long run about halfway through go: 17, 18, 13, 19, 12, 20 (longest in the Novice 2 program), then on down to the race day.

So, yes, there are jumps, but not a 50% jump in one week from a longest to a "wicked longest" run. 

10% rule is a good one to follow, but needs to be in context of a smart and consistent training plan (as stated repeatedly above).  Do the "smart and consistent" training thing, and you'll be able to push waaaaay up in distances over time.

2013-07-08 10:58 AM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain

Originally posted by ironbaby
Originally posted by Batcheldor As for how anyone does an HIM or IM, never underestimate the transformative power of time and consistency. The ability to endure/recover from longer workouts takes time to build. What feels like all-out effort now can become routine and managed over time, provided you manage your training to avoid chronic injury and burnout.
Although these transformations are probably different for each individual. What kind of timeframes are realistic to see these transformations? Just curious... how long to before someone not from an athletic background can see these changes in the body.

For running, you may see some gains over the course of several months of consistent training, but more likely to see significant gains over the course of years.

Take a look at the runners around you that seem to run effortless and recover well.  They don't necessarily need to be "fast," but those runners who can knock out runs day after day without looking like they've been through a death march.  They didn't just start running yesterday.  Most of them have likely been running for many years...some decades.



2013-07-08 4:13 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain
Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

As something of an aside on the Higdon plans, the weeks you reference are going from a lower mileage week back to the higher long day runs.  Preceding each of the lower mileage runs (12 and 14) are runs of longer distances. 


I see what you are saying,
Week 8 - HM
Week 9 - 10
Week 10 - 15
Week 11 - 16

But between week 9 and 10 is still a 50% disparity. Just because someone pushed themself to do a HM in adrenaline rush of the race atmosphere, doesn't make them used to that kind of distance. Which brings to original point... they are still going to be in a world of hurt and pain. I have done 4 training days (in recent few weeks) where I went close to between 7.5-8miles but still doesn't make it effortless run.

Since many have focussed on time and consistency... do you guys increase mileage every week or at certain intervals hold on mileage increase so body can increase it's tolerance to that level? I guess this would apply to bike and run, both.
2013-07-08 7:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Pain and gain
Pain is weakness leaving the body
2013-07-08 8:02 PM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain

Originally posted by ironbaby
Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 As something of an aside on the Higdon plans, the weeks you reference are going from a lower mileage week back to the higher long day runs.  Preceding each of the lower mileage runs (12 and 14) are runs of longer distances. 
I see what you are saying, Week 8 - HM Week 9 - 10 Week 10 - 15 Week 11 - 16 But between week 9 and 10 is still a 50% disparity. Just because someone pushed themself to do a HM in adrenaline rush of the race atmosphere, doesn't make them used to that kind of distance. Which brings to original point... they are still going to be in a world of hurt and pain. I have done 4 training days (in recent few weeks) where I went close to between 7.5-8miles but still doesn't make it effortless run. Since many have focussed on time and consistency... do you guys increase mileage every week or at certain intervals hold on mileage increase so body can increase it's tolerance to that level? I guess this would apply to bike and run, both.

What happens in weeks 4,5,6 & 7?

2013-07-08 8:19 PM
in reply to: TriAya

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain
Originally posted by TriAya

Hover-over is not working for me so I can't see your training logs (sigh), but from what you posted, the relationship between "no pain no gain" and what happened in your last run is not the issue.

If 11mi is currently your longest run, and this means you are a (relatively) new runner ... I gotta ask what kind of run training you're doing (a plan? whatever you feel like? etc.) and why.

I'm not saying a long run should be easy to complete, but in your circumstances, the entire thing should be done at more or less conversational pace (you could hold a conversation), you should have finished feeling like you could do a couple more miles at the same pace/effort, and it could leave you feeling pleasantly tired but not more.

Canned plans are not for everyone. Some people need to build up much more slowly; some need to run more frequently but less per run; some people need to run a lot slower for a lot longer (both in time as well as over time, like weeks/months/years).

It's not about pain tolerance. It's about having had adequate preparation to execute an 11-mile long training run in the manner I described, towards serving whatever long-term plans and goals you have.

 

This^^^^^^^.  Hal Higdon's plans are very popular and have been used successfully by many runners. I used the novice plan for my first marathon. One consideration however is the long run as a percent of your weekly mileage. HH's novice plan has you running 4 x week with the long run comprising 50% of your total weekly mileage. That "may" be too much for you and part of the reason why you are struggling. 

This thread is worth a read.....http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=414314&page=1

2013-07-08 8:49 PM
in reply to: kcarroll

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain
I don't see what the problem is.  I used Hal's plan and went from not being able to run a mile strait, to 4 months of training so I could run 6 miles without stopping and then I knocked out my first race ever (marathon) a few years ago. You'l notice that for 3 weeks you build, and on the 4th, you get a rest week.  It's not going from 10 to 15 in one week.  It's going from 13 to 15 over 2 weeks, with a rest week between it.  I liked the plan and every week it felt like a new accomplishment for the long run.  Every week you build confidence and by the time you get to the 20 miler, you then know you have what it takes to do the marathon.  All it takes is time and effort.  Skipping workout for no reason or not resting when you should be will get you no where though.  You legs will strengthen and you should be able to overcome this.


2013-07-08 8:55 PM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain

Originally posted by ironbaby
Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 As something of an aside on the Higdon plans, the weeks you reference are going from a lower mileage week back to the higher long day runs.  Preceding each of the lower mileage runs (12 and 14) are runs of longer distances. 

I see what you are saying,

Week 8 - HM
Week 9 - 10
Week 10 - 15
Week 11 - 16

But between week 9 and 10 is still a 50% disparity. Just because someone pushed themself to do a HM in adrenaline rush of the race atmosphere, doesn't make them used to that kind of distance. Which brings to original point... they are still going to be in a world of hurt and pain. I have done 4 training days (in recent few weeks) where I went close to between 7.5-8miles but still doesn't make it effortless run.

Since many have focussed on time and consistency... do you guys increase mileage every week or at certain intervals hold on mileage increase so body can increase it's tolerance to that level? I guess this would apply to bike and run, both.

There is a disparity between week 9 and 10, but when you compare week 8 (13.1) and 10 (15), the disparity isn't as bad.

You also need to remember that this is the Novice 1 plan, and it clearly states in the first paragraph of the guide that this plan is simply designed to get you to the starting line.  This really isn't a plan designed to help you run your best marathon, but more like a "crash course" for someone simply looking to start and finish.  If you're currently having trouble with some of the 7-8 mile runs then you need to slow down, or incorporate some walk breaks (also mentioned in his guide).

2013-07-08 11:03 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain

It's necessary to take a step back and look at a bit bigger picture for this. I see weeks 4-10 going 9, 10, 7, 12, 13.1, 10, and 15. Looking at this build up all together looks much different than isolating the apparent 10 to 15 jump. There are 4 runs of 10 miles or better leading into it. Not one. You don't lose what you gained in the previous weeks by going back down to 10 the one time.

I'm not necessarily for the plans, but as someone stated, it does seem to be for just getting through a marathon with the both the weekly volume total and the relation to the long run size. It hops up and down like that from week to week because the long run is such a big percentage of the weekly total. It pushes over the consistent build guidelines at times, and then falls back down to allow for more recovery between the really big efforts. From what I know of ultra plans (limited), this could possibly be viewed as a scaled down version of one.

2013-07-09 6:51 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain

Higdon's advanced plans (or intermediate, I think) incorporate more like 6 runs a week.  One track day, one tempo run, one pace run, one long run and two easy breezy runs.  The more advanced, the more track/temp/speed, and the more days.

I've used the HM plan a couple times - first the upper intermediate and then the advanced.  Tailored just a bit to allow biking and swimming, but was a run focus over the winter.  I liked the build, even if it was a bit over 10% here or there (though never by much when looking at the whole plan).  With the 6 runs a week, the long runs weren't outside of the total volume:long run ratio with which I'm comfortable.

It's a good base from which to do consistent, smart training.  In the end, if you keep coming back to that last sentence, any plan can serve as a base.

Once my HIM is done in August, I'm going back on a run focus to run a marathon (with the better half) in late October.  I'll use the Higdon "Wicked Advanced Awesome Runner" plan as a rough guide again and am looking forward to it.  Wink

Good luck!

Matt

2013-07-09 7:27 AM
in reply to: ironbaby

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2013-07-09 7:33 AM
in reply to: jdl2012

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain
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Patience grasshopper. Slow and steady gets you to 26.2


2013-07-09 8:23 AM
in reply to: jdl2012


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Subject: RE: Pain and gain
You are right. I am with your thoughts that "never gained by training with pain" It look little awkward but this is reality.
2013-07-09 2:59 PM
in reply to: jdl2012

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain
So essentially, are you guys saying that pain should never be there? Every long run during training should be effortless even when if it's a distance PR?? If so, I have been doing it all wrong. Higdon's definition of novice might be different than my novice.

One of my co-workers did the Charlotte marathon following HH's novice plan but he did track in college (now this guy was in 40s) but even from day 1 he was keeping a pace of under 10min/mile. Not having any athletic background is probably being the issue for me here.
2013-07-09 3:08 PM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Pain and gain
Originally posted by ironbaby

Yanti, always good to hear from you. I don't update my logs here so you can't see anything.

Is it possible that pain/gain relationship changes as a new runner gets accustomed to running? As you said, canned plans don't work for everyone.

I am loosely following the Hal Higdon plan and you are right, I am a new runner to longer distances. All my runs are done at conversational pace (very slow) and sometimes I even take walk breaks. But after 6.5-7miles, it starts taking me apart slowly. I just can't get used to mileages over that distance. I did 8miler 3-days ago and due to good weather it felt less uncomfortable during the run but still made my legs really soar for rest of the day.

Just got me wondering... if I need HTFU or at a certain level athletes build a mental tolerance towards pain (like military toughness).


Be careful using the HTFU mentality in regard to running, you're going to hurt yourself. What goal are you going for how? I used Higdon's plan for my first marathon and it got me to the finish line under my goal (4 hours). However 3 months out from my marathon I was using the HTFU approach, running to hard on training runs, and hurt my achiles (Achilles tendonitis). Don't know your goals or base but be careful following a plan if you don't have any base to start.
2013-07-09 3:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Pain and gain
Originally posted by ironbaby

So essentially, are you guys saying that pain should never be there? Every long run during training should be effortless even when if it's a distance PR?? If so, I have been doing it all wrong. Higdon's definition of novice might be different than my novice.

One of my co-workers did the Charlotte marathon following HH's novice plan but he did track in college (now this guy was in 40s) but even from day 1 he was keeping a pace of under 10min/mile. Not having any athletic background is probably being the issue for me here.


There's a difference in pain and discomfort. You're not getting any kind of gain running through pain. On longer slow runs I can honestly say I'm neither in pain or uncomfortable, but it took 3 years, 2 marathons, a few HM, a HIM, and training for an IM to get to feeling comfortable running distances. On tempo/interval runs I get a little uncomfortable, but that's the point of the run, but never in pain.

Edited by rjrankin83 2013-07-09 3:16 PM
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