login
Weight training for improving biking? (Page 3)
-
No new posts
|
 2013-09-30 9:54 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran  635    Ajo |  Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?IF I may throw my thoughts on this... usually I get prosecuted. A while back I had found a link to the author's writing that watts to lifting in gym weights AND a link between 1RM and threshold FTP. It may be this guys opinion, but I thought the article very persuasive. Unfortunately, I didn't save it and can't find it anymore when googling. Basically, it asserts that since only 20 to a max of 25% of our energy goes directly into force on the pedals of the bike, the rest is lost due to sweating and other functions. Then, extrapolating that say 25% into 1RM, we'd need at least 1RM squat ability of about 2 x body weight. For example, to produce a 5s maximal sprint where almost all of your energy goes into the pedals, the ratio is 1:1 or pretty close. To produce a 1500w sprint, you'd need to be able to do a squat at about 340 lbs, that for me would be about 2.25 times more than my weight of 145 to 150lbs. At the moment, I can't squat that much, and have never produced a 1500w sprint either. I have lifted weights in some form or another since 17 yo, I'm now 45. I am an ectomorph body type, very slender, but at one time in my mid 20's, I weighed 170lbs at a very low body weight, lots of muscle, I could squat back then. Anyways, I feel that being a gym rat in the past has allowed me to make faster gains in triathlon, eventhough I started only 2 years ago. So, last winter during the offseason, I employed some of the power lifting past to a gym regimine meant solely to put muscle on my skinny frame. I had about 18.75 inch thighs at the beginning and after a couple of months I increase their size to about 19.5 inches... while I still trained on my bike and ran too... my sprint ability went from 800w to 1200w and all other metrics increase substantially, esp. efforts up to about 10 minutes, like my 1 minute went up to 475w and 5 minute went to about 330ish and FTP went up to 290 from 275 at the end of the season. I employed the thinking from that article and focused solely on increasing muscle size and power. Currently, my FTP is around 320, or my 60' FTP w/kg is 4.75, my goal is a ratio of 5.5w/kg for the 20' FTP threshold standard, now it's around 345... it needs to be 360w, getting close. All this being said, since I began as a triathlete, my thigh size has gone from 18.5 to 20.2 inches, my FTP is gone from 198w to 320w, or avg. speed of around 21mph to 26mph for a 40k TT. I firmly believe that I wouldn't have made this kind of gain to cycling w/o gym work. So, during this next offseason, guess what I'm going to hit power squats and leg curls again. If you're all thinking that my VO2max has improved, I'd say yes, but only slightly, from a running standpoint... it's about 6:50 to 7:00 for longer efforts like a 10k to half marathon, and I can't or at least haven't broke 20 minutes on a 5k. Take it for what it's worth, I believe in the gym. Edited by tomspharmacy 2013-09-30 9:55 AM |
| 2013-09-30 10:06 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by tomspharmacy IF I may throw my thoughts on this... usually I get prosecuted. A while back I had found a link to the author's writing that watts to lifting in gym weights AND a link between 1RM and threshold FTP. It may be this guys opinion, but I thought the article very persuasive. Unfortunately, I didn't save it and can't find it anymore when googling. Basically, it asserts that since only 20 to a max of 25% of our energy goes directly into force on the pedals of the bike, the rest is lost due to sweating and other functions. Then, extrapolating that say 25% into 1RM, we'd need at least 1RM squat ability of about 2 x body weight. For example, to produce a 5s maximal sprint where almost all of your energy goes into the pedals, the ratio is 1:1 or pretty close. To produce a 1500w sprint, you'd need to be able to do a squat at about 340 lbs, that for me would be about 2.25 times more than my weight of 145 to 150lbs. At the moment, I can't squat that much, and have never produced a 1500w sprint either. I have lifted weights in some form or another since 17 yo, I'm now 45. I am an ectomorph body type, very slender, but at one time in my mid 20's, I weighed 170lbs at a very low body weight, lots of muscle, I could squat back then. Anyways, I feel that being a gym rat in the past has allowed me to make faster gains in triathlon, eventhough I started only 2 years ago. So, last winter during the offseason, I employed some of the power lifting past to a gym regimine meant solely to put muscle on my skinny frame. I had about 18.75 inch thighs at the beginning and after a couple of months I increase their size to about 19.5 inches... while I still trained on my bike and ran too... my sprint ability went from 800w to 1200w and all other metrics increase substantially, esp. efforts up to about 10 minutes, like my 1 minute went up to 475w and 5 minute went to about 330ish and FTP went up to 290 from 275 at the end of the season. I employed the thinking from that article and focused solely on increasing muscle size and power. Currently, my FTP is around 320, or my 60' FTP w/kg is 4.75, my goal is a ratio of 5.5w/kg for the 20' FTP threshold standard, now it's around 345... it needs to be 360w, getting close. All this being said, since I began as a triathlete, my thigh size has gone from 18.5 to 20.2 inches, my FTP is gone from 198w to 320w, or avg. speed of around 21mph to 26mph for a 40k TT. I firmly believe that I wouldn't have made this kind of gain to cycling w/o gym work. So, during this next offseason, guess what I'm going to hit power squats and leg curls again. If you're all thinking that my VO2max has improved, I'd say yes, but only slightly, from a running standpoint... it's about 6:50 to 7:00 for longer efforts like a 10k to half marathon, and I can't or at least haven't broke 20 minutes on a 5k. Take it for what it's worth, I believe in the gym. I have to say, this is the kind of results I thought my kid could gain from an off-season power lifting program. At 15 his FTP is 300 and his 40K TT is right at 25 mph, his w/kg is always well above 4. I have been surprised at the responses from Gavin, Fred, etc....because they know this stuff pretty well. I'm still googling and reading.....pretty interesting how varied some articles are from each other. Edited by Left Brain 2013-09-30 10:08 AM |
| 2013-09-30 10:09 AM in reply to: tomspharmacy |
Expert 1439 Tallahassee | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? I agree 100% that weight training in the gym is beneficial but I'm a newbie here too. I'm addicted to lifting and trying to break that habit to do more in the tri area. To me the problem with squatting and working legs is that after a grueling leg workout, I can't run or bike for at leat 4 days, shoot I can barely walk. |
| 2013-09-30 10:14 AM in reply to: 0 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? This is also worth a read: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2672335 Shane Edited by gsmacleod 2013-09-30 10:15 AM |
| 2013-09-30 10:17 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 2261 Ridgeland, Mississippi | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by Left Brain
I have to say, this is the kind of results I thought my kid could gain from an off-season power lifting program. At 15 his FTP is 300 and his 40K TT is right at 25 mph, his w/kg is always well above 4. I have been surprised at the responses from Gavin, Fred, etc....because they know this stuff pretty well. I'm still googling and reading.....pretty interesting how varied some articles are from each other. The thing that I've liked about following this thread so far is that you're inadvertently playing moderator on what is normally a heated topic. The debate usually gets out of hand by now, but your pursuit of actual information has kept that from happening. This has potential to be an interesting, constructive thread. |
| 2013-09-30 10:26 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by gsmacleod This is also worth a read: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2672335Shane Yeah, I have seen in quite a few of my readings the idea that you NEVER reach, or use, your true "strength" threshold on the bike, so leg "strength" is somewhat irrelavent. (at least according to the literature I've come across). I'm still holding out for something that more closely correlates to what I've always believed to be true. |
| 2013-09-30 10:44 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Master 1858 Salt Lake City | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by gsmacleod This is also worth a read: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2672335Shane Yeah, I have seen in quite a few of my readings the idea that you NEVER reach, or use, your true "strength" threshold on the bike, so leg "strength" is somewhat irrelavent. (at least according to the literature I've come across). I'm still holding out for something that more closely correlates to what I've always believed to be true. I do wonder where the popular articles all seem to get their information, because every time you turn around they're spouting something about how some kind of weight training benefited cyclists in some study or another... I suppose its probably that telling people they need to bike more gets old and uninteresting before long. |
| 2013-09-30 1:35 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 635 Ajo | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by tomspharmacy IF I may throw my thoughts on this... usually I get prosecuted. A while back I had found a link to the author's writing that watts to lifting in gym weights AND a link between 1RM and threshold FTP. It may be this guys opinion, but I thought the article very persuasive. Unfortunately, I didn't save it and can't find it anymore when googling. Basically, it asserts that since only 20 to a max of 25% of our energy goes directly into force on the pedals of the bike, the rest is lost due to sweating and other functions. Then, extrapolating that say 25% into 1RM, we'd need at least 1RM squat ability of about 2 x body weight. For example, to produce a 5s maximal sprint where almost all of your energy goes into the pedals, the ratio is 1:1 or pretty close. To produce a 1500w sprint, you'd need to be able to do a squat at about 340 lbs, that for me would be about 2.25 times more than my weight of 145 to 150lbs. At the moment, I can't squat that much, and have never produced a 1500w sprint either. I have lifted weights in some form or another since 17 yo, I'm now 45. I am an ectomorph body type, very slender, but at one time in my mid 20's, I weighed 170lbs at a very low body weight, lots of muscle, I could squat back then. Anyways, I feel that being a gym rat in the past has allowed me to make faster gains in triathlon, eventhough I started only 2 years ago. So, last winter during the offseason, I employed some of the power lifting past to a gym regimine meant solely to put muscle on my skinny frame. I had about 18.75 inch thighs at the beginning and after a couple of months I increase their size to about 19.5 inches... while I still trained on my bike and ran too... my sprint ability went from 800w to 1200w and all other metrics increase substantially, esp. efforts up to about 10 minutes, like my 1 minute went up to 475w and 5 minute went to about 330ish and FTP went up to 290 from 275 at the end of the season. I employed the thinking from that article and focused solely on increasing muscle size and power. Currently, my FTP is around 320, or my 60' FTP w/kg is 4.75, my goal is a ratio of 5.5w/kg for the 20' FTP threshold standard, now it's around 345... it needs to be 360w, getting close. All this being said, since I began as a triathlete, my thigh size has gone from 18.5 to 20.2 inches, my FTP is gone from 198w to 320w, or avg. speed of around 21mph to 26mph for a 40k TT. I firmly believe that I wouldn't have made this kind of gain to cycling w/o gym work. So, during this next offseason, guess what I'm going to hit power squats and leg curls again. If you're all thinking that my VO2max has improved, I'd say yes, but only slightly, from a running standpoint... it's about 6:50 to 7:00 for longer efforts like a 10k to half marathon, and I can't or at least haven't broke 20 minutes on a 5k. Take it for what it's worth, I believe in the gym. I have to say, this is the kind of results I thought my kid could gain from an off-season power lifting program. At 15 his FTP is 300 and his 40K TT is right at 25 mph, his w/kg is always well above 4. I have been surprised at the responses from Gavin, Fred, etc....because they know this stuff pretty well. I'm still googling and reading.....pretty interesting how varied some articles are from each other. LB, I don't know your son's past, but he sounds fast and dedicated... great genes from Mom and Dad... BUT, I'd say this about being young. When I was 15 yo, I started running like Forest Gump, everyday for nothing but exercise, no competitions, at around 17, I picked up cycling for exercise at around the same time I picked up weights to make me bigger and stronger for the ladies. I weighed about 135 and in a year packed on 15lbs of muscle. At 19, I entered a century race for the first time, broke 6 hours with no training... then the El tour de tucson (111 milers) the next year at 20, got 4:35. At 21, I entered the Army and was stationed to Denver, CO. I rode my bike, hit the gym and ran when I could, but my best 2 miler in the Army test was about avg. about 12' flat, nothing spectacular in terms of being an elite runner, but I could bike with leg strength... I did a couple of club TT's and I can remember getting a 22:30 on a 10 mile TT... that was on an aluminum Giant road bike with no aero equipment... I was about 1.5 minutes off the best times produced by pros and elite riders with the latest mid-90's technologoy. BUT, my point and it may relate to your son, or possibly to anyone else... I'd say that he would have to abstain or reduce his long endurance training to gain muscle mass, since it seems that he might be catabolizing the muscle that he has... he would also have to take a lot of extra calories and not worry about gaining weight. This may be counterproductive... you can't gain muscle while wasting it during endurance exercising. Anyways, I think the gym can be very beneficial. It may be that a young 10 yo can generate enough power, say 400w, to do a 40k tt in sub 55 minutes, but can that power be done over thousands of reps over an hour? That's where I believe that the more power at the 1RM level translates and trickles down. It takes pretty decent strength to turn a 53/11-13 at 90 to 100 rpms for an hour. It's the equivalent of doing single leg lunges of around with your body weight and hold 25lb dumbells in each arm and doing a cadence 90 per leg per minute for an hour... if you can't do that, then you ain't going to ride at 350 to 400 watts for an hour and you ain't gonna do a sub 5hr IM leg either, since that requires about 80% of that strength. Look at the thighs of the best TT's in the world... they're pretty big and massive, probably dense as sh&t. There are of course always outliers that folks can point to and say... look at this guy, he's got tiny legs and is fast... then I'd say that he's got a gifted VO2max too. The best TTers probably got VO2max abilities around at least 80 and add to that leg strength and you're going to do 32 mph TT's. But for us average folks, we'll have to work hard at what nature gave us to get better. The avg. TdF BOP rider probably has a VO2max of at least 65. Again, don't prosecute me guys, I'm just relaying some thoughts, from what I've learned and read and tried to assimilate and understand in order to get better. Edited by tomspharmacy 2013-09-30 1:41 PM |
| 2013-09-30 1:44 PM in reply to: tomspharmacy |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by tomspharmacy Originally posted by Left Brain LB, I don't know your son's past, but he sounds fast and dedicated... great genes from Mom and Dad... BUT, I'd say this about being young. When I was 15 yo, I started running like Forest Gump, everyday for nothing but exercise, no competitions, at around 17, I picked up cycling for exercise at around the same time I picked up weights to make me bigger and stronger for the ladies. I weighed about 135 and in a year packed on 15lbs of muscle. At 19, I entered a century race for the first time, broke 6 hours with no training... then the El tour de tucson (111 milers) the next year at 20, got 4:35. At 21, I entered the Army and was stationed to Denver, CO. I rode my bike, hit the gym and ran when I could, but my best 2 miler in the Army test was about avg. about 12' flat, nothing spectacular in terms of being an elite runner, but I could bike with leg strength... I did a couple of club TT's and I can remember getting a 22:30 on a 10 mile TT... that was on an aluminum Giant road bike with no aero equipment... I was about 1.5 minutes off the best times produced by pros and elite riders with the latest mid-90's technologoy. BUT, my point and it may relate to your son, or possibly to anyone else... I'd say that he would have to abstain or reduce his long endurance training to gain muscle mass, since it seems that he might be catabolizing the muscle that he has... he would also have to take a lot of extra calories and not worry about gaining weight. This may be counterproductive... you can't gain muscle while wasting it during endurance exercising. Anyways, I think the gym can be very beneficial. It may be that a young 10 yo can generate enough power, say 400w, to do a 40k tt in sub 55 minutes, but can that power be done over thousands of reps over an hour? That's where I believe that the more power at the 1RM level translates and trickles down. It takes pretty decent strength to turn a 53/11-13 at 90 to 100 rpms for an hour. It's the equivalent of doing single leg lunges of around with your body weight and hold 25lb dumbells in each arm and doing a cadence 90 per leg per minute for an hour... if you can't do that, then you ain't going to ride at 350 to 400 watts for an hour and you ain't gonna do a sub 5hr IM leg either, since that requires about 80% of that strength. Look at the thighs of the best TT's in the world... they're pretty big and massive, probably dense as sh&t. There are of course always outliers that folks can point to and say... look at this guy, he's got tiny legs and is fast... then I'd say that he's got a gifted VO2max too. Again, don't prosecute me guys, I'm just relaying some thoughts, from what I've learned and read and tried to assimilate and understand in order to get better. Originally posted by tomspharmacy IF I may throw my thoughts on this... usually I get prosecuted. A while back I had found a link to the author's writing that watts to lifting in gym weights AND a link between 1RM and threshold FTP. It may be this guys opinion, but I thought the article very persuasive. Unfortunately, I didn't save it and can't find it anymore when googling. Basically, it asserts that since only 20 to a max of 25% of our energy goes directly into force on the pedals of the bike, the rest is lost due to sweating and other functions. Then, extrapolating that say 25% into 1RM, we'd need at least 1RM squat ability of about 2 x body weight. For example, to produce a 5s maximal sprint where almost all of your energy goes into the pedals, the ratio is 1:1 or pretty close. To produce a 1500w sprint, you'd need to be able to do a squat at about 340 lbs, that for me would be about 2.25 times more than my weight of 145 to 150lbs. At the moment, I can't squat that much, and have never produced a 1500w sprint either. I have lifted weights in some form or another since 17 yo, I'm now 45. I am an ectomorph body type, very slender, but at one time in my mid 20's, I weighed 170lbs at a very low body weight, lots of muscle, I could squat back then. Anyways, I feel that being a gym rat in the past has allowed me to make faster gains in triathlon, eventhough I started only 2 years ago. So, last winter during the offseason, I employed some of the power lifting past to a gym regimine meant solely to put muscle on my skinny frame. I had about 18.75 inch thighs at the beginning and after a couple of months I increase their size to about 19.5 inches... while I still trained on my bike and ran too... my sprint ability went from 800w to 1200w and all other metrics increase substantially, esp. efforts up to about 10 minutes, like my 1 minute went up to 475w and 5 minute went to about 330ish and FTP went up to 290 from 275 at the end of the season. I employed the thinking from that article and focused solely on increasing muscle size and power. Currently, my FTP is around 320, or my 60' FTP w/kg is 4.75, my goal is a ratio of 5.5w/kg for the 20' FTP threshold standard, now it's around 345... it needs to be 360w, getting close. All this being said, since I began as a triathlete, my thigh size has gone from 18.5 to 20.2 inches, my FTP is gone from 198w to 320w, or avg. speed of around 21mph to 26mph for a 40k TT. I firmly believe that I wouldn't have made this kind of gain to cycling w/o gym work. So, during this next offseason, guess what I'm going to hit power squats and leg curls again. If you're all thinking that my VO2max has improved, I'd say yes, but only slightly, from a running standpoint... it's about 6:50 to 7:00 for longer efforts like a 10k to half marathon, and I can't or at least haven't broke 20 minutes on a 5k. Take it for what it's worth, I believe in the gym. I have to say, this is the kind of results I thought my kid could gain from an off-season power lifting program. At 15 his FTP is 300 and his 40K TT is right at 25 mph, his w/kg is always well above 4. I have been surprised at the responses from Gavin, Fred, etc....because they know this stuff pretty well. I'm still googling and reading.....pretty interesting how varied some articles are from each other. Part of your post covers my dilemma in trying to figure out what direction to go with my 15 year old. He runs a 16:XX 5K, a 34:XX 10K, swims a sub 5:00 500, and a 17:XX 1650 (SCY) and bikes as I've already described. He doesn't do near the endurance training that most people here probably think he does to reach those times.....he has never ran more than 25 miles per week. he does swim ALOT....nearly 7000 per day and at least 6 sessions per week. That's where he builds the aerobic engine....and on long bike rides in season. At his age we work on speed for his running, and he wants to build more speed into his bike...which is why I'm in this discussion to begin with. I get the idea of riding more, but riding more alone, from my experience with my own training, doesn't add enough stress to build speed. So I'm exploring how that's done, and wondering about weight training.....something he's never done. For the record, he has one coach who wants him to start some pretty serious weight training this winter, and one who doesn't think it's necessary.......so I'm just trying to give myself an informed opinion. |
| 2013-09-30 2:33 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by Left Brain Part of your post covers my dilemma in trying to figure out what direction to go with my 15 year old. He runs a 16:XX 5K, a 34:XX 10K, swims a sub 5:00 500, and a 17:XX 1650 (SCY) and bikes as I've already described. He doesn't do near the endurance training that most people here probably think he does to reach those times.....he has never ran more than 25 miles per week. he does swim ALOT....nearly 7000 per day and at least 6 sessions per week. That's where he builds the aerobic engine....and on long bike rides in season. At his age we work on speed for his running, and he wants to build more speed into his bike...which is why I'm in this discussion to begin with. I get the idea of riding more, but riding more alone, from my experience with my own training, doesn't add enough stress to build speed. So I'm exploring how that's done, and wondering about weight training.....something he's never done. For the record, he has one coach who wants him to start some pretty serious weight training this winter, and one who doesn't think it's necessary.......so I'm just trying to give myself an informed opinion. What has your son's riding looked like before? Just riding with races here & there? Curious as in here you've said he's ridden long and might possibly ride more. How one does the riding matters. A LOT. Certainly not one to loaf along, but still curious what it's been consisting of. |
| 2013-09-30 2:40 PM in reply to: Fred D |
Veteran 294 Mission Viejo, | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? "His legs look like the size of many people's arms. While 'well-defined', do you think he could do a huge leg press?" As a matter of fact, I do think he could do fairly well on the leg press machine. Whoever said that strong muscles had to be big? I think that many make an immediate correlation with having muscular strength as being of the bodybuilder mold. Look at a rock climber. Not big by any means, but huge upper body strength, forearms, shoulders, back and hands! |
| 2013-09-30 2:51 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Left Brain Part of your post covers my dilemma in trying to figure out what direction to go with my 15 year old. He runs a 16:XX 5K, a 34:XX 10K, swims a sub 5:00 500, and a 17:XX 1650 (SCY) and bikes as I've already described. He doesn't do near the endurance training that most people here probably think he does to reach those times.....he has never ran more than 25 miles per week. he does swim ALOT....nearly 7000 per day and at least 6 sessions per week. That's where he builds the aerobic engine....and on long bike rides in season. At his age we work on speed for his running, and he wants to build more speed into his bike...which is why I'm in this discussion to begin with. I get the idea of riding more, but riding more alone, from my experience with my own training, doesn't add enough stress to build speed. So I'm exploring how that's done, and wondering about weight training.....something he's never done. For the record, he has one coach who wants him to start some pretty serious weight training this winter, and one who doesn't think it's necessary.......so I'm just trying to give myself an informed opinion. What has your son's riding looked like before? Just riding with races here & there? Curious as in here you've said he's ridden long and might possibly ride more. How one does the riding matters. A LOT. Certainly not one to loaf along, but still curious what it's been consisting of. He has a coach so he does interval work, threshold work, hills, etc. (no, he does not yet train with power, except for some computrainer sessions.....that will change next year) But the miles, again, are probably shorter than most people think for the times he is able to generate. He also does a long ride per weerk....40-60 miles. I don't hav his logs in front of me, but during peak training he probably does 100 miles per week broke up into 3-5 sessions. |
| 2013-09-30 2:51 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Regular 5477 LHOTP | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Is it possible that weight training is specific to the athlete, their goals and their slow v. fast twitch muscle fiber? As a predominately fast twitch athlete, I have a propensity to put on muscle. Now that I'm doing tris, I've had to back off weights completely, and will probably drop body weight exercises too. I'm lean, but that extra muscle is just mass I have to move on the bike and the run. LB, your son is close to 6'4 and 155lbs? Am I remembering that right? He obviously has a gift for endurance sports and is slow twitch dominated. Based on his current size and speeds, even if he were to gain an additional 10lbs of LBM, he would still be very light, and that LBM could translate into more power on the bike, without slowing him down on the run. Acutally, if he gains that mass/strength in his legs, it might even improve his run. It seems like this is a very individual thing and even the elites play around with 10lbs to find their sweet spot, especially as they change distances. |
| 2013-09-30 2:54 PM in reply to: switch |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by switch Is it possible that weight training is specific to the athlete, their goals and their slow v. fast twitch muscle fiber? As a predominately fast twitch athlete, I have a propensity to put on muscle. Now that I'm doing tris, I've had to back off weights completely, and will probably drop body weight exercises too. I'm lean, but that extra muscle is just mass I have to move on the bike and the run. LB, your son is close to 6'4 and 155lbs? Am I remembering that right? He obviously has a gift for endurance sports and is slow twitch dominated. Based on his current size and speeds, even if he were to gain an additional 10lbs of LBM, he would still be very light, and that LBM could translate into more power on the bike, without slowing him down on the run. Acutally, if he gains that mass/strength in his legs, it might even improve his run. It seems like this is a very individual thing and even the elites play around with 10lbs to find their sweet spot, especially as they change distances. Funny....because 10lbs. of muscle is exactly what one coach wants him to gain from the weight training.....and she does want it to be in his legs. |
| 2013-09-30 3:09 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by switch Is it possible that weight training is specific to the athlete, their goals and their slow v. fast twitch muscle fiber? As a predominately fast twitch athlete, I have a propensity to put on muscle. Now that I'm doing tris, I've had to back off weights completely, and will probably drop body weight exercises too. I'm lean, but that extra muscle is just mass I have to move on the bike and the run. LB, your son is close to 6'4 and 155lbs? Am I remembering that right? He obviously has a gift for endurance sports and is slow twitch dominated. Based on his current size and speeds, even if he were to gain an additional 10lbs of LBM, he would still be very light, and that LBM could translate into more power on the bike, without slowing him down on the run. Acutally, if he gains that mass/strength in his legs, it might even improve his run. It seems like this is a very individual thing and even the elites play around with 10lbs to find their sweet spot, especially as they change distances. Funny....because 10lbs. of muscle is exactly what one coach wants him to gain from the weight training.....and she does want it to be in his legs. Was there an explanation why? (Sorry, not much time for more detailed thoughts on this) |
| 2013-09-30 3:09 PM in reply to: trigal38 |
| 754 | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by trigal38 Originally posted by happyscientist Froome can TT, but he can't sprint. He has no explosive power. Anyway, cycling in my main sport. I don't know anyone who has seen climbing ability increased by weight lifting, but as a woman, I saw a definite increase in my endurance when I started doing upper body and core strength training. I saw the improvement both in my running and cycling. The improvement was surprisingly fast, too. Just a couple weeks of weight training, and I had better endurance and felt better the next day because my upper body wasn't fatigued. Just curious what distance events you were/are training for? This is my first year in triathlons, so the longest I have done have been a couple Olys. However, I bike tour up to 80 miles a day and do several 70+ milers with friends every year. The main place I saw an improvement was in my half marathon time. I knocked 4 minutes off my time in less than two months, even though I was running less, when I added upper body weights and core training. I also felt much better during the last couple miles and the next day. |
| 2013-09-30 3:13 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 754 | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by gsmacleod This is also worth a read: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2672335Shane Yeah, I have seen in quite a few of my readings the idea that you NEVER reach, or use, your true "strength" threshold on the bike, so leg "strength" is somewhat irrelavent. (at least according to the literature I've come across). I'm still holding out for something that more closely correlates to what I've always believed to be true. Apparently you have never ridden in Garrett County, MD. Anyone who has ridden their Gran Fondo or done the Wall at Savageman would probably disagree. |
| 2013-09-30 3:16 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by switch Is it possible that weight training is specific to the athlete, their goals and their slow v. fast twitch muscle fiber? As a predominately fast twitch athlete, I have a propensity to put on muscle. Now that I'm doing tris, I've had to back off weights completely, and will probably drop body weight exercises too. I'm lean, but that extra muscle is just mass I have to move on the bike and the run. LB, your son is close to 6'4 and 155lbs? Am I remembering that right? He obviously has a gift for endurance sports and is slow twitch dominated. Based on his current size and speeds, even if he were to gain an additional 10lbs of LBM, he would still be very light, and that LBM could translate into more power on the bike, without slowing him down on the run. Acutally, if he gains that mass/strength in his legs, it might even improve his run. It seems like this is a very individual thing and even the elites play around with 10lbs to find their sweet spot, especially as they change distances. Funny....because 10lbs. of muscle is exactly what one coach wants him to gain from the weight training.....and she does want it to be in his legs. Was there an explanation why? (Sorry, not much time for more detailed thoughts on this) Yeah, I know.....sorry. His coach feels like he needs/can carry a bit more muscle mass because of his size. (6'4") My son and I talked with Matty Reed for awhile this summer about training for taller athletes.....Reed was also pretty adamant that adding/keeping muscle was important for taller athletes. We didn't specifically talk about weight training, just the idea that getting too thin was a big concern with regard to loss of strength. Edited by Left Brain 2013-09-30 3:17 PM |
| 2013-09-30 3:18 PM in reply to: happyscientist |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by happyscientist Originally posted by Left Brain Apparently you have never ridden in Garrett County, MD. Anyone who has ridden their Gran Fondo or done the Wall at Savageman would probably disagree. Originally posted by gsmacleod This is also worth a read: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2672335Shane Yeah, I have seen in quite a few of my readings the idea that you NEVER reach, or use, your true "strength" threshold on the bike, so leg "strength" is somewhat irrelavent. (at least according to the literature I've come across). I'm still holding out for something that more closely correlates to what I've always believed to be true. Apparently you didn't see that I waqs referring to the article that Gavin bolded......but thanks for playing. |
| 2013-09-30 3:21 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 754 | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by happyscientist Originally posted by Left Brain Apparently you have never ridden in Garrett County, MD. Anyone who has ridden their Gran Fondo or done the Wall at Savageman would probably disagree. Originally posted by gsmacleod This is also worth a read: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2672335Shane Yeah, I have seen in quite a few of my readings the idea that you NEVER reach, or use, your true "strength" threshold on the bike, so leg "strength" is somewhat irrelavent. (at least according to the literature I've come across). I'm still holding out for something that more closely correlates to what I've always believed to be true. Apparently you didn't see that I waqs referring to the article that Gavin bolded......but thanks for playing. I saw it, I just didn't bother to read through all of it. |
| 2013-09-30 8:55 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Master 2380 Beijing | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by gsmacleod This is also worth a read: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2672335Shane Yeah, I have seen in quite a few of my readings the idea that you NEVER reach, or use, your true "strength" threshold on the bike, so leg "strength" is somewhat irrelavent. (at least according to the literature I've come across). I'm still holding out for something that more closely correlates to what I've always believed to be true. If the bolded statement is true, then the graph presented previously isn't a good measure for the statement that "strength and endurance aren't related." (because you'd never be able to measure strength on a bike) I guess I'm still not sold on the use of the 5s power peak as a substitute for strength... but maybe I'm picking at nits. Dunno. And although we've seen data from power meters, we haven't actually answered the question which I think we really want answered: Who does consistently better (if any) in races, the guys in the red oval, or the guys in the blue oval? They all have the ~same FTP performance(normalized by weight) but their "strength" is vastly different. (same_power_more_strength.png) Attachments ---------------- same_power_more_strength.png (41KB - 6 downloads) |
| 2013-09-30 9:33 PM in reply to: moondawg14 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Moondawg - Please explain what I'm looking at on that graph if you don't mind. I'm sure it's something simple, but I'm not sure what I'm looking at with regard to this thread. I may have to change my handle to Simple Brain.  |
| 2013-09-30 11:02 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Master 2380 Beijing | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by Left Brain Moondawg - Please explain what I'm looking at on that graph if you don't mind. I'm sure it's something simple, but I'm not sure what I'm looking at with regard to this thread. I may have to change my handle to Simple Brain.
The Y-axis is a normalized(by weight) power over an FTP cycle. (functional threshold power)
The X-axis is a normalized(by weight) Maximum power over 5 seconds.
In theory, If you draw a horizontal line across that graph, and put all those guys on identical single-speed bikes, they would finish a race at the same time. |
| 2013-10-01 2:52 AM in reply to: happyscientist |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by happyscientist Funny you would use that as an example, because that demonstrates the lack of understanding most people have between the difference between strength and power well. Think of strength as the maximum you can lift one time. Think of power as the amount you can lift repeatedly over a given period of time. It's easy to see there's going to be a correlation between strength and power at very short durations. This is why Shane's chart can use 5s power as a proxy for strength. At the other far extreme of the spectrum, most people seem to recognize intuitively that there is going to be less correlation between the amount you can lift one time (strength) and the amount you can lift a couple hundred thousand times during a 200 mile bike ride (power). Somewhere between these two extremes seems to be when the debate starts, because intuitively there seems like there should be a correlation. The issue is that the correlation between strength and power appears to end at much shorter durations than intuition would indicate. Even on an extremely steep climb like the Westernport Wall, FTP/ KG will be a much better indicator of speed up the wall than 1RM on any given leg exercise. This is supported by current endurance training philosophy, which focuses on training energy systems, not muscles, for performance gains. Strength is fueled almost exclusively by anaerobic energy pathways that provide energy for efforts of only a few seconds before dropping off, while even very short endurance events like a 5k are fueled primarily by aerobic energy pathways.Originally posted by Left Brain Apparently you have never ridden in Garrett County, MD. Anyone who has ridden their Gran Fondo or done the Wall at Savageman would probably disagree.Originally posted by gsmacleod This is also worth a read: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2672335Shane Yeah, I have seen in quite a few of my readings the idea that you NEVER reach, or use, your true "strength" threshold on the bike, so leg "strength" is somewhat irrelavent. (at least according to the literature I've come across). I'm still holding out for something that more closely correlates to what I've always believed to be true. |
| 2013-10-01 6:29 AM in reply to: moondawg14 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking? Originally posted by moondawg14 If the bolded statement is true, then the graph presented previously isn't a good measure for the statement that "strength and endurance aren't related." (because you'd never be able to measure strength on a bike) This is why I said that 5sMMP is a good proxy for strength (1RM) since anaerobic efforts are highly correlated to strength. This is why sprinters (in every sport) look vastly different than those who compete in events that last longer than a couple of minutes. For cycling, if strength were a key component then the track sprinters would also be strong in the kilo but they are not. Instead, we see the kilo guys being able to successfully transition to longer events, up to and including grand tours but the sprinters are pretty much only able stick to sprint events.  I guess I'm still not sold on the use of the 5s power peak as a substitute for strength... but maybe I'm picking at nits. Dunno. Why would you not expect 5sMMP to be a good proxy for strength? And although we've seen data from power meters, we haven't actually answered the question which I think we really want answered: Who does consistently better (if any) in races, the guys in the red oval, or the guys in the blue oval? They all have the ~same FTP performance(normalized by weight) but their "strength" is vastly different. Correct but without more data, there is no way to know. What we can say is that in a mass start event or hill climb, both the red and blue groups would likely expect about the same level of performance. We couldn't say that same with a TT since that is highly related to aero position and absolute power but strength is not a significant component in endurance cycling. Shane |
|
|
|
|
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
|
| ||||
|
| |||
|
| |||
|
|
View profile
Add to friends
Go to training log
Go to race log
Send a message
View album
CONNECT WITH FACEBOOK