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2014-05-06 12:05 PM
in reply to: dtoce

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
here's a little video of the course...the uphills look so much less intimidating, but I remember that waterstop at mile 29? , up on the hill (about 2 1/2 minutes into the video) but I remember going super fast down along the river!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY4Zj5BTlmw


2014-05-06 12:06 PM
in reply to: dtoce

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
Originally posted by dtoce

Originally posted by braciole

I posted this question a few months ago in another forum and didn't get any responses -- i figure I'd take another shot here

Have any of you Quassy vets also done HITS Hunter HIM?

I did HITS Hunter last year, I'm curious how the courses stack up in terms of bike and run difficulty. Based on all I've read and my review of elevation charts etc. Quassy is harder, but I guess what I've looking for is advice along the lines of

"Quassy is harder, but if you did OK at HITS you shouldn't have that much of a tougher time at Quassy" versus

"Hunter was child's play -- If you don't feel like you smoked the bike/run courses there, you're in for a real hurtin at Quassy" etc.

I struggled some at the end of the bike at HITS, but i think it was mostly because of bad pacing throughout. I'm riding this year with a power meter which will help that, and I've also switched from a standard to a compact crank.


I have not done HITS Hunter HIM, only Quassy and Savageman, so I cannot compare.
I believe that you will be able to do it well, no matter how it compares-because you are riding with power and have the ability to pace yourself at a higher level using the PM.

The trick is to figure out what NP/IF is needed for race day, then execute your plan.
Many people advise 0.8 IF or even lower for the 1/2IM distance. I am still learning, but have practiced this and did a recent 56 mile bike at my own goal IF and ran OK afterwards, so I'm feeling pretty good about my power goal for race day. (now if I can remember how to swim...)

The compact crank will help, bringing a 27 or 28 cassette will help more, and even pacing is recommended. I loved my 11 gear for the downs and I believe it helped. (I rode an 11/28 last year with a compact crank.)

I would advise dividing up the course roughly into 4 sections:

0-24 one moderate uphill with a net down that will not tax you too much at all if you don't push too hard early on. You can settle into the bike pacing and get some nutrition going during that first hour.
24-31 the long, steady hill-just spin at a reasonable cadence and get to the top; it will get hot so drink if thirsty
31-45 small rollers then long downhill
45-56 bigger rollers and lots of up/down-even power pacing and higher cadence in the last several miles to flush the legs and get ready for the run

http://rev3tri.com/quassy/course-info-3/elevation-charts/

You'll be fine. Don't stress too much about it. Hills are hills. The key is figuring out pacing: what power you will go out at...and try to hold it in practice to get an idea if it will work and leave enough energy for the run. Having the powermeter is a big advantage, IMO.

Now, about those hills...


thanks. still a noob to power so don't really know how to figure out NP/IF. TrainerRoad gives them to me, and my Garmin 310xt outside doesn't track them.

My plan is to pick a focus on current power and 3sec power as a % of my indoor FTP (that's really all I've got to work with right now). On flats and hills try to stay at around my target watts (or on hills at least try not to exceed my FTP). On downhills, go fast.
2014-05-06 2:35 PM
in reply to: braciole

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread

Originally posted by braciole  thanks. still a noob to power so don't really know how to figure out NP/IF. TrainerRoad gives them to me, and my Garmin 310xt outside doesn't track them. My plan is to pick a focus on current power and 3sec power as a % of my indoor FTP (that's really all I've got to work with right now). On flats and hills try to stay at around my target watts (or on hills at least try not to exceed my FTP). On downhills, go fast.

Did you actually get a power meter at some point? Feel like I'm misunderstanding several things in this post. Otherwise, what Trainer Road is doing is making an estimate of the power you are generating based off the speed your sensor is reading when on the trainer. The Garmin devices don't actually measure power, but display the reading a powermeter will send to it. If you don't have a PM you will need to learn how to correlate the power Trainer Road is saying to perceived effort (RPE) and also to heartrate (HR) if you have that.

Also, I'm not sure what you're planning on with current power and 3 sec power as those are almost the same thing. It's much more common to have a shorter reading like just one of those along with a longer term (or overall ride) one like AP and/or NP. You don't really want to pick a power target as a % FTP and go straight to the race, but use your FTP and the guidance ranges to test out ahead of time in training. Then from the training rides you figure out how to ride the event.

2014-05-06 5:24 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by braciole  thanks. still a noob to power so don't really know how to figure out NP/IF. TrainerRoad gives them to me, and my Garmin 310xt outside doesn't track them. My plan is to pick a focus on current power and 3sec power as a % of my indoor FTP (that's really all I've got to work with right now). On flats and hills try to stay at around my target watts (or on hills at least try not to exceed my FTP). On downhills, go fast.

Did you actually get a power meter at some point? Feel like I'm misunderstanding several things in this post. Otherwise, what Trainer Road is doing is making an estimate of the power you are generating based off the speed your sensor is reading when on the trainer. The Garmin devices don't actually measure power, but display the reading a powermeter will send to it. If you don't have a PM you will need to learn how to correlate the power Trainer Road is saying to perceived effort (RPE) and also to heartrate (HR) if you have that.

Also, I'm not sure what you're planning on with current power and 3 sec power as those are almost the same thing. It's much more common to have a shorter reading like just one of those along with a longer term (or overall ride) one like AP and/or NP. You don't really want to pick a power target as a % FTP and go straight to the race, but use your FTP and the guidance ranges to test out ahead of time in training. Then from the training rides you figure out how to ride the event.




Yes, I have a PM. I've only been training with it since January, but nearly all of my riding has been inside with TrainerRoad. TR will tell you NP/IF after a workout. My Garmin doesn't track that. "Current" power is a typo. I meant average.

"You don't really want to pick a power target as a % FTP and go straight to the race, but use your FTP and the guidance ranges to test out ahead of time in training."

That was the plan, but I'm kind of stuck just going to the race armed only with my inside FTP. My training overall hasn't gotten where I wanted it to be and part of that is not having enough outdoor rides, or other stuff happening like my PM battery dying 10 minutes into my long ride 2 weeks ago, to really be able to gauge where I should be re: power and translating my inside effort to outside.
2014-05-07 7:28 AM
in reply to: braciole

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
Just an FYI. I can tell you that all your power numbers are going to be a lot lower on Trainer Road then outside. Mine are about 25-30w lower on Kurt Kinetic with Vector PM. (Just did sufferfest, the Hunted last Night). I don't know if that helps.
2014-05-07 8:12 AM
in reply to: braciole

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread

Ok, that makes more sense then. Don't worry about IF not being available on there. It's redundant when out on a ride as you should know the actual power numbers anyway. I do like using NP more for overall, but you can do ok with AP. The PM should have been helping you to tame the spikes in various situations, so with fewer of those NP would not rise up as much. It really helped me calm down there when I first got power. Then also know that AP drops faster than NP in situations like coasting, so if you end up coasting a bunch NP will be more. They separate less when soft-pedaling down the bigger hills as opposed to coasting. I tend to do this more to keep my legs moving yet not put a lot of energy in without getting much in return until the really fast hills. Pushing hard on the downhills doesn't gain a lot of time as the air resistance is so much higher. Being able to hold a good aero position shouldn't really cost anything though.

Over the next few weeks, go with what you can for getting used to outside. The trainer riding is still worth something and can be quite helpful, especially since I'd guess many tend to push a bit too much. More so on the hills. What I can do indoors vs outdoors tends to be rather similar, but more tend to be like jayabusa said. Able to push some more outside. Keep working on developing your RPE. Power is nice, but you also don't want to be entirely dependent on it.



2014-05-07 9:26 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
If I posted some data and stats, would y'all be able to help me come up with a high level/general approach for (1) maximizing the training weeks we have left focusing on the immediate challenge ahead; and (2) coming up with a general plan for the race? Not sure if that's too big an ask, but man any help would be awesome.
2014-05-07 11:24 AM
in reply to: braciole

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
Originally posted by braciole

If I posted some data and stats, would y'all be able to help me come up with a high level/general approach for (1) maximizing the training weeks we have left focusing on the immediate challenge ahead; and (2) coming up with a general plan for the race? Not sure if that's too big an ask, but man any help would be awesome.


I'm sure people will be ready to give suggestions...post away!
Ben's (brigby) super smart on all aspects of cycling and tri-training (and most recently showing his pool prowess)

When he talks, I always listen...

And like Jay said, the outside power data will not match the inside data. Mine is about 20+W higher outside also. How one deals with that seems to be variable. But for me, I will use all the data together and allow the FTP to go up as the new information is used in calculating FTP and training zones. At least, that is what I did this year, being another newbie to power.

I had the good fortune to be a part of the Power Mentor group and I learned a ton from Marc. It's a long thread, but there is a lot of good information about power training.

At the end of the year, once I go back on the trainer, I'll probably start fresh and retest on the trainer and use that info for training purposes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

It's getting close people!!
2014-05-07 11:41 AM
in reply to: dtoce

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
Originally posted by dtoce

Originally posted by braciole

If I posted some data and stats, would y'all be able to help me come up with a high level/general approach for (1) maximizing the training weeks we have left focusing on the immediate challenge ahead; and (2) coming up with a general plan for the race? Not sure if that's too big an ask, but man any help would be awesome.


I'm sure people will be ready to give suggestions...post away!
Ben's (brigby) super smart on all aspects of cycling and tri-training (and most recently showing his pool prowess)

When he talks, I always listen...

And like Jay said, the outside power data will not match the inside data. Mine is about 20+W higher outside also. How one deals with that seems to be variable. But for me, I will use all the data together and allow the FTP to go up as the new information is used in calculating FTP and training zones. At least, that is what I did this year, being another newbie to power.

I had the good fortune to be a part of the Power Mentor group and I learned a ton from Marc. It's a long thread, but there is a lot of good information about power training.

At the end of the year, once I go back on the trainer, I'll probably start fresh and retest on the trainer and use that info for training purposes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

It's getting close people!!


that would be sweeeeet. This will need to wait until after hours or maybe even the weekend, but I'm thinking I will post some data from my indoor training sessions, some from my outdoor training sessions, and some race results.

I was one of the early joiners of Marc's power group, but dropped out before it started because I was training for a marathon and had a vacation around that time so couldn't participate until several weeks in. I've never gotten back into the thread but intend to. I need to print it out and read it on the train.

2014-05-07 6:40 PM
in reply to: braciole

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
Here's my stuff. If anyone can weigh in, it'd be much appreciated.

Ht/Wt" 6ft, 185 pounds.

I've done 1 HIM -- HITS Hunter Mtn 2013. 6:31 overall, 3:31 bike.

Bike profile for the race is here: http://www.mapmyride.com/us/manorville-ny/hits-triathlon-series-hun...

--------------------------------------------------

Indoor numbers training with Power & TR. The first column are from my first ever ride with power, which was my first FTP test earlier this year. My current FTP is 183.

Length 1st Ride
(1/25/14) Current
5 Second 233 612
10 Second 216 578
20 Second 201 517
30 Second 199 476
1 Minute 194 347
2 Minute 191 247
5 Minute 186 226
10 Minute 180 208
15 Minute 170 200
20 Minute 170 193
30 Minute 150 185
60 Minute 124 153
90 Minute -- 149
2 hours -- 143

-----------------------------------------------------------

Data from my two outside rides this year for which I have data. The longer ride was my first ride outside this year on 4/13.

Time miles Elev Avg Pace Best Pace Avg HR Max HR Avg Pwr Max Power Max Avg Pwr (20 Mins)
52:32:00 13.47 52 15.4 24.8 142 160 174 458 193
2:52:31 42.25 1,211 14.7 25.1 144 160 161 581 178
2014-05-07 7:42 PM
in reply to: braciole

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
do you know what your HR was for Hunter MT?
how old are you?
how did you feel on the long bike outside of 3hrs w av HR of 144?

are you able to do a 5 and 20 minute hard bike test using the PM outside in the near future?
this might be the best thing you can do to get a reasonably valid FTP/CP using your PM and outdoor data...

and as Ben said, you need to learn to dial in to your own RPE and ideally your HR so you can have a better idea about what 1/2IM bike pace 'feels' like and what 'tempo' or 'vo2max' feels like...

forget about IF or the like, as you don't have enough data points to use it reliably


2014-05-07 8:30 PM
in reply to: #4986652

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
I do not have HR for Hunter.

I'm 37.

That ride wasn't a good one - my first one outside this year, I kind of hit a wall a little after an hour in and felt sapped the rest of the way. That ride beat me up for some reason. My long rides since then have been all around better and I've felt stronger and consistent through the ride I just don't have data. Looking forward to a good ride this weekend with data.

I have a spot where I think I can do a 20 min test outside. I was planning to do that this a.m. but had to ride inside. I'm going to try again tomorrow or friday.
2014-05-09 8:20 AM
in reply to: braciole

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
So I beat the weather and got in my 20min test this morning (flatted shortly after and had the wrong CO2 trigger, but not letting that get me down).

results are pictured. I did 10 mins easy, 5 mins at 30" easy/30" harder, stopped for a minute to adjust, and then did the test.

Overall I think it was a good test. A few potential limiting factors: I may have paced a bit conservatively for the first 10 minutes; ground was wet; i had on one layer too many; i got to the end of the path quicker than I thought I would and had to turn around (it was a good quick turn though).

Elevation gain for the ride was 54 feet.

Does that average power translate into a FTP of 215?





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2014-05-09 9:51 AM
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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
I'd say that is a good guesstimate. The best guess will happen after you have done your 5 minute test and put it into the calculator.
(then you can update your garmin and it will give you more accurate IF numbers--if that is on your data screens)

Here's a good calculator. Remember, you only have one measurement, and we don't know how big your 'battery' is.
(=AWC-basically, that is your anaerobic power)

http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/monodcriticalpower.aspx

Change the data points to 5minute and 20 minute, enter your weight and press calculate CP, an approximation of FTP.



We are pretty close. My 20 minute test a few weeks ago was 235. My estimated FTP is 220.

Then you can practice long rides based on estimates of IF, like do a 3 hour long ride at 0.8IF (an often quoted average for the 1/2IM distance) and pay attention to what your av HR is and how you feel during this ride. Then run a short distance to see how your legs feel off this pace.

That is they way to practice for race day using power to your advantage. And if the PM dies on you, the RPE and HR can still help quite a lot based on what you've learned in practice.

Edited by dtoce 2014-05-09 9:55 AM
2014-05-09 12:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread

Follow what Dale said. Get in some rides up around 3 hrs and experiment with the pacing. That is more important now than nailing the exact value of your FTP. The 0.80 to start with is just a guideline to help figure narrow it down some. The value you have should be close enough to see how the training rides go. You do not really want to take that value and go directly to the race without at least some practice with it.

Having an upper limit being at FTP on the hills for this is also good, however, do try to remember that this is a cap. Not a target. You might very well end up spending an hours time up at FTP during the ride since there are so many hills. The 5 mile hill alone will be 20-some minutes at that effort.

2014-05-10 8:44 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
I had a good confidence building ride today.

58.33 miles
3:56:53
2,551 ft elevation gain
Avg HR 145
Avg Pwr 164 (max avg power 20 mins - 183)
Avg Cadence 86

I went out with the plan to keep my power around 175ish, and not to go over 215 on climbs. I found that I got used to the feel of 175/180ish pretty quickly, and early in the ride was making adjustments based on feel first rather than by looking at my garmin first. On longer steady climbs i had no problem keeping my power in check and away from my cap, but on short steep climbs I had trouble. To stay under 215 I had to get my cadence way down, sometimes standing up to get my cadence down into the 50s or even the 40s. I don't know what that means but I figure it's something i need to work on.

I felt good after this ride. I didn't run off the bike b/c of time issues but I don't think I would have had a problem. Next week I may try out a slightly higher target. But I feel like I have a plan I can go with at Quassy.


2014-05-10 9:51 PM
in reply to: braciole

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread

Originally posted by braciole To stay under 215 I had to get my cadence way down, sometimes standing up to get my cadence down into the 50s or even the 40s. I don't know what that means but I figure it's something i need to work on.  

What is your gear range? Front and back. If you don't know, you want to learn about this. It matters. A lot.

And did you use it? Have to ask as there can be some who don't shift all the way down or don't use the small ring for whatever reason. They'll prefer to just mash and tough it out.

2014-05-10 9:59 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by braciole To stay under 215 I had to get my cadence way down, sometimes standing up to get my cadence down into the 50s or even the 40s. I don't know what that means but I figure it's something i need to work on.  

What is your gear range? Front and back. If you don't know, you want to learn about this. It matters. A lot.

And did you use it? Have to ask as there can be some who don't shift all the way down or don't use the small ring for whatever reason. They'll prefer to just mash and tough it out.




50/34 crank, 11/27 cassette. What i'm describing above was in 34/27. I have no issues dropping into the smallest gear.

i wasn't having a problem getting up the hill. it was just an issue of trying not to go over threshold power. i had no trouble spinning faster up, but the only way i could keep my power down was to slow rpm way down.
2014-05-11 8:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
Nice job. Steady effort is key and the PM helps define what your body is feeling in terms of work. NP is more physiologic than AP, so it will take into account some variables that aren't readily apparent-like extra wind forces you have to power through when not in aero, or too many anaerobic efforts...Now that I know my estimates for 80% and 90% FTP, I often look at NP on my data screen for how I am doing to estimate goal power for the ride.

The data screens I look at have: distance, HR, cadence, 6s power, speed, lap power, lap time, lap distance, av-power for ride, IF, av-HR for the ride. My Garmin has a bike mount with a quick release so I am practicing for the tri by taking it off/on with me on bricks. I'll probably forget it on the bike when I do the run leg.

We haven't talked about burning 'matches' or how much cost there is in being above goal FTP on the bike and it's obvious that if you don't pace yourself properly on the bike, the run will be a slogfest. For me, getting my speed up pretty quickly so that I am get going faster and then can keeping it up by spinning and staying at power goals was another step higher in terms of overall performance and efficiency. You just have to be careful to not push too hard for too long. I think you can be too conservative by never going above FTP in a race.

Here's the article on 'burning matches'.
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/what-is-a-match

I found it enlightening that spinning and shifting efficiently, at high cadence, (until you run out of gears) seems to be the most efficient way to go uphills. And there is a skill to this. Personally, I seem to do better on short, rolling hills than the long steady climbs. Hills are tough enough, but after you crest them, my own times are faster if I push just a bit and go over 100%FTP for very short bursts to get my speed up on the flats or to begin the down in rolling hills. I try to only go 'harder' for about 30 seconds, in an effort to not burn a match.

And pushing the 50/11 combo going downhill at a moderate effort, until it takes too much power and too high a cadence to make it worth it, then resting and holding a tight aero position while going fast downhill.
2014-05-11 5:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
today I followed yesterday's ride with a moderately hilly 12 miler pushing my 3 yr old and my 1 year old in a double stroller and kept near my training pace. I'm ready for Quassy. Bring it.
2014-05-11 6:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
Hit a 60-miler yesterday with about 2,000 feet of climbing, plus a half hour brick run, and then another 90 minute run with an interval set in the middle. Two more weeks of building, then a recovery week spent sight-seeing in Boston, and then my first HIM at Quassy.

I'm already looking forward to November, when my legs finally get to stop being tired .


2014-05-11 9:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
I know this is a long shot but my work hours and days are crazy. I am planning on heading to Quassy to do a little course recon on May 20. I want to get up there and see what all of these hills are. I did Pat Griskus Oly years ago and dont have too many memories of the roads in that area. Anyone else around and want to ride midweek?

Im feeling pretty good going in though, got back from Lake Placid where I did 56 miles (3:20) w/ 3200+ feet of climbing, avg power 178, NP 180, IF 1.01. Didnt go too hard, more just getting time in the saddle. Let the HR come down over about 20 mins as I changed and then had an easy run of the hard 10k part of the IMLP course, 55:00, 450 feet climbing.

FWIW, Im 5'9"/178lbs and I plan on riding a 53x39 w/ a 12x27 and running a disc. Go big or go home, lol.
2014-05-12 7:49 AM
in reply to: dtoce

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread

Originally posted by dtoce  I found it enlightening that spinning and shifting efficiently, at high cadence, (until you run out of gears) seems to be the most efficient way to go uphills. And there is a skill to this. Personally, I seem to do better on short, rolling hills than the long steady climbs. Hills are tough enough, but after you crest them, my own times are faster if I push just a bit and go over 100%FTP for very short bursts to get my speed up on the flats or to begin the down in rolling hills. I try to only go 'harder' for about 30 seconds, in an effort to not burn a match. And pushing the 50/11 combo going downhill at a moderate effort, until it takes too much power and too high a cadence to make it worth it, then resting and holding a tight aero position while going fast downhill.

yeah, that's something easy to miss. The slowing down sort of near, but not quite at the top. Keep going until you get there. And actually until back up to speed. I don't actually burst harder here, but try to keep up what I had been doing to get up the hill. When first trying it out, it might feel rather hard. And it likely could be, but that doesn't mean doing this is wrong. Rather that the effort elsewhere may need to be adjusted accordingly in order to accomplish this. Some of this is mental, and just getting used to pushing for that much longer. Another good reason to get outside and ride some hills. Not necessarily the exact course, but at least whatever is available. It becomes easier to pick up how to manage different situations by riding in a good variety in training.

2014-05-12 8:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
I did a recon yesterday of the course.3776 gain, Avg power 197w, ap(20 min) 213, NP 206W, Garmin has IF 0.516, tss 78.3. same data on training peaks has tss 330.3 and if at .99. I wonder why? Maybe my coach has a different setting for me on Training peaks. Took 3:22 minutes to do. This is going to be a long day for me. I am thinking I should come in around 3:10 +/- 5 min. Legs were okay, I wanted to do a 4 mile run after but ran out of time. 2 hours + to get to rev and 2 1/2 to get home. Will recon again this weekend.
2014-05-12 4:27 PM
in reply to: Jayabusa

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Subject: RE: Rev3 Quassy - Half Rev : Official Thread
Originally posted by Jayabusa

I did a recon yesterday of the course.3776 gain, Avg power 197w, ap(20 min) 213, NP 206W, Garmin has IF 0.516, tss 78.3. same data on training peaks has tss 330.3 and if at .99. I wonder why? Maybe my coach has a different setting for me on Training peaks. Took 3:22 minutes to do. This is going to be a long day for me. I am thinking I should come in around 3:10 +/- 5 min. Legs were okay, I wanted to do a 4 mile run after but ran out of time. 2 hours + to get to rev and 2 1/2 to get home. Will recon again this weekend.


Wow - good on you for doing some recon riding. I had decided against driving down there myself the next two week ends to do a little recon of my own. 4 hours in the car is an eternity when you have three kids. But the idea of not finishing scares/motivates me to pull out all the stops. How beneficial do you find it to have ridden the course before the race?
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