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IM saving P2 vs PR6 (Page 2)
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 2016-03-07 9:54 AM in reply to: Jason N |
Elite  7783      PEI, Canada |  Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6Originally posted by Jason N What kind of tires and tubes are you running on the FLOs? Looks like you're running tubulars on these, with one of them being a gatorskin. If you aren't already running fast tires, latex tubes, and a disc cover (assuming you don't have a FLO disc....start there. Those are easy, cheap, and you don't really need to test. Could amount to over 10 minutes by themselves depending on what you're using now. Strava stalking shows GP4000s II
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| 2016-03-07 9:56 AM in reply to: Jason N |
| 22 | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 I Have Continental GP4000s with latex tubes on a FLO 60 front / 90 rear with a disc cover. |
| 2016-03-07 10:47 AM in reply to: Stimps |
| 5 | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 I've got a 2011 P2 bike and a few things that I did was reroute the cables to be internal at the top tube and also drilled holes for a bento box. You can google it for directions or find it on Tririg. I also added a new cockpit that I picked up to clean up all of the exposed wires. (2011 P2.JPG) Attachments ---------------- 2011 P2.JPG (1060KB - 6 downloads) |
| 2016-03-07 10:50 AM in reply to: jwilso6 |
| 22 | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Originally posted by jwilso6 I've got a 2011 P2 bike and a few things that I did was reroute the cables to be internal at the top tube and also drilled holes for a bento box. You can google it for directions or find it on Tririg. I also added a new cockpit that I picked up to clean up all of the exposed wires. Have seen this and was scared to do it to be honest. Was it easy to do? I presume it invalidates the warranty? How about resale? do you think it would make the bike difficult to resell? What new cockpit did you go for? |
| 2016-03-07 10:57 AM in reply to: Stimps |
| 5 | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Well since it was a 2011 I really wasn't worried about a warranty and honestly I don't think it would change much on the resale side. A friend of mine did it for me. If you have any ability to work with tools I'd say it's not that bad. The only issue was trying to run the cables. I picked up the cockpit on ebay and so far so good. It's carbon and a knock off but it's really durable. I know some people will say that's a stupid idea but the one that came with the P2 broke during B2B last year and I had to ride the rest of the way with only one arm rest. When I sale this bike I'm going to say it's not mint condition. It's been battle tested and came out on the other side unscathed. So, if you want a fast bike this is the one for you. lol |
| 2016-03-07 11:00 AM in reply to: Stimps |
| 5 | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Here's a better picture. I'd look at getting the tririg stem also. It really helped with the cleanup of the cables. (Top of the bike.JPG) Attachments ---------------- Top of the bike.JPG (1654KB - 9 downloads) |
| 2016-03-07 2:11 PM in reply to: Stimps |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Originally posted by Stimps Thanks, for the advice. I should have mentioned this before but since this race I have changed the front bottle to a BTA one and removed the one on the down tube. I changed my arm position up a bit. I've move the spares to a bento box up front and removed the wing. Head position is an issue. I've now got a Giro Air Attack shield as I find it hard to keep my head up enough to stop the tail acting like a sail... What are your thoughts on the fit though (seat height arm position etc). I have a power meter. The bike looks much more like this now, except I now have FLO wheels and use a bento box instead of the x-lab wing and bag thing behind my seat... I would do a couple of things. If you have a power meter I would read up on how to calculate one's cda and I would try to get a feel for where I am. I suspect you are more towards the .3 than the .2 so you probably have a lot of room for improvement I would find someone that knows how to fit you. You need to fix your head problem. I don't believe in fit by looking at a bike on a rack but that seems like a pretty steep angle on the saddle. You may be compromising power and comfort. Do you fidget around on the saddle ? Getting a slower helmet was probably not your best bet. Find someone that can play with your shoulders to get your head in a position you can turtle or at least look up. IF you need to drop in front, which isn't obvious you do, then you could put a bar with less stack than you have there. For example the Vulka has an option where the extensions are below the bar and the pads are right on the bar and it allows good foreward/backward adjustability, You would drop considerably. Drilling the frame to run those derailleur cables will buy you very little, if anything IMO. Clean up you brake cables if you want to do something. Don't waste money on a new bike until you are properly fit on the current one and you know that the bike's size is your limiter. I suspect you are far away from that and the most aero bike in the world is going to yield you peanuts. The lady I talked about earlier has that same bike and through testing dropped many watts. She is also from Houston. |
| 2016-03-07 2:37 PM in reply to: marcag |
| 31 | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Semi Hijack, really good information here, but I have a question I am a bigger guy (ie 5'-10" and 200lbs) come race day I will hope to be around 180lbs Does the aero help for bigger guys as much as other people (ie aero is aero regardless of the size of the object cutting through the air) thanks, |
| 2016-03-07 2:41 PM in reply to: marcag |
| 22 | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 You need to fix your head problem. Do you mean I should lift my chin up? |
| 2016-03-07 2:47 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 First of all your mass affects most things when it comes to how fast you can go with a given power. Even rolling resistance. So 20lbs, even on a flat course will make a difference. Mass does not affect the power to overcome wind resistance. It affects rolling resistance (even on flats), acceleration/deceleration (even on flats) and when working against gravity (if there are hills) But the bigger your are, the more area you are exposing, So the smaller you are the better. So getting in the right position for a big guy is critical. Air is stupid, it's really easy to fool :-) Edited by marcag 2016-03-07 3:08 PM |
| 2016-03-07 2:50 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Originally posted by Stimps Do you mean I should lift my chin up? You need to get your head as low as possible while still looking up the road and be able to wear the best helment without a tail sticking up. Edited by marcag 2016-03-07 2:56 PM |
| 2016-03-07 3:19 PM in reply to: mike761 |
| Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by marcag I went from 172.5 to 165. Now that I did it I think I could have could have gone down to 160 or 155 and been a little better off even. I think this is an understated improvement that many people still argue. Originally posted by mike761 Something I did 2 years ago, was shortened my cranklengths. By doing this it opened my torso so I could breath easier. x2. It was really good for me. I watched them fit Lionel Sanders a month or so ago. That's what they did as well. Dropped him to 165s.
Mike, do you mind if I ask your height and inseam? Thanks,
Jim |
| 2016-03-07 3:40 PM in reply to: marcag |
| 22 | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 I would do a couple of things. If you have a power meter I would read up on how to calculate one's cda and I would try to get a feel for where I am. I suspect you are more towards the .3 than the .2 so you probably have a lot of room for improvement I would find someone that knows how to fit you. You need to fix your head problem. I don't believe in fit by looking at a bike on a rack but that seems like a pretty steep angle on the saddle. You may be compromising power and comfort. Do you fidget around on the saddle ? Getting a slower helmet was probably not your best bet. Find someone that can play with your shoulders to get your head in a position you can turtle or at least look up. IF you need to drop in front, which isn't obvious you do, then you could put a bar with less stack than you have there. For example the Vulka has an option where the extensions are below the bar and the pads are right on the bar and it allows good foreward/backward adjustability, You would drop considerably. Drilling the frame to run those derailleur cables will buy you very little, if anything IMO. Clean up you brake cables if you want to do something. Don't waste money on a new bike until you are properly fit on the current one and you know that the bike's size is your limiter. I suspect you are far away from that and the most aero bike in the world is going to yield you peanuts. The lady I talked about earlier has that same bike and through testing dropped many watts. She is also from Houston. I think I'm going to get a Guru fit done. I don't find this position bad to be honest. I did 83 miles in this position yesterday aero all the way so its certainly sustainable. The only trouble I sometimes have is my arms slip forward on the arm rests, apart from this its relatively comfortable. What I'm really interested in is whether I could gain power in adjusting my position. |
| 2016-03-07 4:20 PM in reply to: Stimps |
Veteran 1677 Houston, Texas | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Originally posted by Stimps I think I'm going to get a Guru fit done. I don't find this position bad to be honest. I did 83 miles in this position yesterday aero all the way so its certainly sustainable. The only trouble I sometimes have is my arms slip forward on the arm rests, apart from this its relatively comfortable. What I'm really interested in is whether I could gain power in adjusting my position. I don't know that you'll gain power by adjusting your position, but you may gain speed at the same power output. A good fit goes a long way to making you comfortable, but aero testing is what's going to tell you if the fit made you more aero or if you still have low-hanging fruit. If you can't keep your head in a comfortable position that's also aero because of your fit, the fit will help you be more aero. But the fit probably won't result in improving aerodynamics from things like arm width, arm height, seat height, etc.
BTW, I'm the one with the P2 from Houston who dropped considerable time by doing a lot of aero testing. For me, the big things were finding a good helmet and a sleeved top. Wheels made a considerable difference too (but I already owned them, and only confirmed that they were good, versus testing to determine if I should buy them). There's a thread somewhere around here where we discussed, at length, what the testing protocol was and how much time savings I was able to make for various changes. |
| 2016-03-08 5:56 AM in reply to: Stimps |
Champion 7136 Knoxville area | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Originally posted by Stimps What I'm really interested in is whether I could gain power in adjusting my position. Gaining "power" is to show off to your friends/strava. Going faster is what matters in races. |
| 2016-03-08 6:51 AM in reply to: crusevegas |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Originally posted by crusevegas Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by marcag I went from 172.5 to 165. Now that I did it I think I could have could have gone down to 160 or 155 and been a little better off even. I think this is an understated improvement that many people still argue. Originally posted by mike761 Something I did 2 years ago, was shortened my cranklengths. By doing this it opened my torso so I could breath easier. x2. It was really good for me. I watched them fit Lionel Sanders a month or so ago. That's what they did as well. Dropped him to 165s.
Mike, do you mind if I ask your height and inseam? Thanks,
Jim About 31" inseam. There have been studies done on crank lengths showing no loss of power over a very large range of crank lengths. I think it was something like 135 up to 185. I was a bit skeptical at first, but the science was there and I wanted to breath a little easier. It helped much more than I thought, if I were doing it again I would go even shorter. Problem with cranks is the availability under 165. You can find them they tend to get pricey. |
| 2016-03-08 8:46 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
| Oakville | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Helmet that's good for your position, sleeved fast skinsuit, cleaned up all cables, cleaned everything you'll carry to be as aero as possible, disc rear, deep front, great tires, latex tubes, etc. Shane Don't mean to hijack this thread, but a question for the aero folks who have been posting. When you say "clean up cables" is that simply a matter of zip tying the cables behind the stem or is it more involved with some drilling and rerouting the cables internally? I have a Felt B16 which routes the cables through the top tube directly behind the stem, but they are exposed between the ends of the aerobars and where they enter the frame. Also, when adjusting aerobar and pad width, for longer race distances I tend to widen the bars and pads for comfort but was wondering if there would be any aero advantage to angle the bars into each other to form a V? Or would that just give a larger frontal aspect and higher CDA? |
| 2016-03-08 3:14 PM in reply to: ligersandtions |
| 22 | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Originally posted by ligersandtions Originally posted by Stimps I think I'm going to get a Guru fit done. I don't find this position bad to be honest. I did 83 miles in this position yesterday aero all the way so its certainly sustainable. The only trouble I sometimes have is my arms slip forward on the arm rests, apart from this its relatively comfortable. What I'm really interested in is whether I could gain power in adjusting my position. I don't know that you'll gain power by adjusting your position, but you may gain speed at the same power output. A good fit goes a long way to making you comfortable, but aero testing is what's going to tell you if the fit made you more aero or if you still have low-hanging fruit. If you can't keep your head in a comfortable position that's also aero because of your fit, the fit will help you be more aero. But the fit probably won't result in improving aerodynamics from things like arm width, arm height, seat height, etc.
BTW, I'm the one with the P2 from Houston who dropped considerable time by doing a lot of aero testing. For me, the big things were finding a good helmet and a sleeved top. Wheels made a considerable difference too (but I already owned them, and only confirmed that they were good, versus testing to determine if I should buy them). There's a thread somewhere around here where we discussed, at length, what the testing protocol was and how much time savings I was able to make for various changes. If I may ask what helmet and top did you go for? I changed helmet predominantly to get a visor as I was sick at looking at the upper rim of my sunglasses, the visor is fantastic so I need to get a more aero helmet which I can use a visor on, any suggestions? |
| 2016-03-08 3:41 PM in reply to: Leegoocrap |
| 22 | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Originally posted by Leegoocrap Originally posted by Stimps What I'm really interested in is whether I could gain power in adjusting my position. Gaining "power" is to show off to your friends/strava. Going faster is what matters in races. Agreed speed is what counts but power feeds into this as well, there is no point in having a .cda of 0.19 if I can only output 50w... |
| 2016-03-08 4:06 PM in reply to: marcag |
| 22 | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Stimps Do you mean I should lift my chin up? You need to get your head as low as possible while still looking up the road and be able to wear the best helment without a tail sticking up. Like this?!! (christopher_froome_time_trial_bike_position_0.jpg) Attachments ---------------- christopher_froome_time_trial_bike_position_0.jpg (58KB - 5 downloads) |
| 2016-03-08 4:13 PM in reply to: Stimps |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Originally posted by Stimps Originally posted by Leegoocrap Originally posted by Stimps What I'm really interested in is whether I could gain power in adjusting my position. Gaining "power" is to show off to your friends/strava. Going faster is what matters in races. Agreed speed is what counts but power feeds into this as well, there is no point in having a .cda of 0.19 if I can only output 50w... Yes but unless you have a terrible position, you can likely train yourself to be "comfortable" and put out close to the same watts in aero as on a roadie. is the answer. Shane |
| 2016-03-08 4:26 PM in reply to: Stimps |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Originally posted by Stimps Originally posted by marcag Like this?!! Originally posted by Stimps Do you mean I should lift my chin up? You need to get your head as low as possible while still looking up the road and be able to wear the best helment without a tail sticking up. I'd say more like this.
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| 2016-03-08 4:35 PM in reply to: Stimps |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 Originally posted by Stimps Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Stimps Do you mean I should lift my chin up? You need to get your head as low as possible while still looking up the road and be able to wear the best helment without a tail sticking up. Like this?!! If you're on a closed course, with a race car and DS in your ear piece, go for it. For a triathlon, not so much. Shane |
| 2016-03-08 8:36 PM in reply to: Stimps |
Veteran 1677 Houston, Texas | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 I tested my old Specialized Evade versus a Giro A2 versus a Rudy Wingspan versus a LG Vorttice versus a LG P09 -- the Winspan, Vorttice, and P09 were all pretty comparable for me, but I got a great deal on a P09 and picked it up. I knew the Evade ("aero" road helmet would be the worst), was surprised that the A2 was almost as bad (for me). I bought an LG M2 top to test it out and it tested really well for me -- I didn't try any of the other ones, so they may be comparable or better/worse. |
| 2016-03-09 6:07 AM in reply to: Stimps |
Champion 7136 Knoxville area | Subject: RE: IM saving P2 vs PR6 |
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