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2021-11-29 1:31 PM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open
Originally posted by jmhpsu93

@Andrew:  you're probably dealing with some mental fatigue right now.  With all the $hit you're dealing with locally it has to take a toll on you.  I'm kinda done with it myself and all the theater around it is getting annoying. 

Now the US media is panicking over the Omicron variant, even though there's no indication that's it's resistant to vaccines or more severe than Delta.  Whatever gets eyeballs and clicks I suppose.  Uncle Joe is supposed to talk to us about it today.




Yup, very likely that's a large part of it. I'm also 100% over it, everybody's been vaxed, (or at least had the opportunity to and chose not too) as far as I'm concerned lets open the world and see what happens. I prefer the risk of covid to living in this constant uncertain, fear mongering semi police state.

Re the omicron, on the weekend I read an article with an interview with the South African Dr who discovered it. Apparently different (no loss of taste/smell) but really mild symptoms, lethargic, achey muscles, cough... typical flu stuff. Obviously it's early days, and no one is sure about anything, but if it is super contagious and takes over from delta, but milder, it might be a good thing... Not that this will stop the media around the world breathlessly ramping up the fear/click bait.


2021-11-29 2:01 PM
in reply to: bulfrog

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open
Originally posted by bulfrog


Nathalie Hope you're enjoying the winter. And I still think your mad going in that lake. As a contrast, I've usually got our spa set at 34 degrees for playing in with the kids. Mrs Bullfrog has decided that's too cold for evening spas, up to 37-38 it is.


I agree, we have our spa at 38 too in the evenings. I love both cold and hot water!



Originally posted by jmhpsu93

Nathalie....you're crazy.  alt="" />



Thank you

I would have thought the same last year but now I am hooked!

4C in the water today and minus 5C in the air! lovely





2021-11-29 2:36 PM
in reply to: Rollergirl

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open

Originally posted by Rollergirl
Originally posted by bulfrog Nathalie Hope you're enjoying the winter. And I still think your mad going in that lake. As a contrast, I've usually got our spa set at 34 degrees for playing in with the kids. Mrs Bullfrog has decided that's too cold for evening spas, up to 37-38 it is.
I agree, we have our spa at 38 too in the evenings. I love both cold and hot water!
Originally posted by jmhpsu93

Nathalie....you're crazy.  alt="" />

Thank you I would have thought the same last year but now I am hooked! 4C in the water today and minus 5C in the air! lovely

40 degrees in ours.  Love it in the winter. 

2021-12-01 7:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open

Hey, all.  Alice is putting together the 2022 threads so I posted ours, as I don't think Gretchen is around anymore. 

Here's what I wrote:

GROUP FOCUS: Everything related to endurance sports, we have sprint-focused and IM-focused triathletes and a cyclist, a competitive swimmer, and people that dabble in other sports to keep the legs moving

NAME: jmhpsu93 / Mike

STORY: I've always been an athlete, from cross-country and track in high school, to basketball and volleyball through my 20s, soccer here and there, and finally got into endurance sports in my late 30s when I couldn't do competitive sports as much.  I've completed 5 HMs, about 20-30 5/10Ks, 10+ triathlons (mostly sprints), and am dipping my toes in competitive cycling at the ripe old age of 52.  COVID has pushed back my rookie cycling year a couple of times, but hopefully 2022 is the charm.  I've been through some back and knee injuries (with the surgery scars to go with them) so I have to really manage my volume and what I do to my body.

FAMILY STATUS: Married for 20+ years to a former triathlete, 19 YO daughter in college who was a competitive swimmer and faster than me in the pool by the time she was 11.

CURRENT TRAINING: I'm in base training for 2022 right now, with a full schedule of sprint triathlons and bike races through the summer.

THIS YEAR'S RACES: No racing in 2021...I deferred a couple for some unexpected family commitments.  I race fairly often on Zwift and am a solid MOP "C" racer.

UPCOMING YEAR'S RACES: 3-4 sprint triathlons, and Olympic aqaubike, two 40K time trials and a few criteriums depending on schedule, plus I'll continue to race on Zwift (I love the criterium races there).

WEIGHTLOSS: Currently weigh around 205, racing weight is 195 - it's easy for me to drop to 200, the last five are brutal and take real commitment to nutrition which I'm terrible at.

WHAT WILL MAKE ME A GOOD MENTOR: I've been a mentor or mentee for over a decade, and with this group I think about six years.  We're a great group welcoming of all newcomers and we all mentor each other.  We have members in several countries which makes for some great perspectives. 



Edited by jmhpsu93 2021-12-01 7:51 AM
2021-12-01 7:55 AM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open

Good morning everyone.  Yesterday was the first double in a while for me...got in a morning bike/run workout with some lower body strength work and then a 4 PM swim.  I haven't worked out that late in the day since before the pandemic when I was taking my daughter to swim practice in the afternoons, so I naturally had trouble falling asleep last night and this morning is my earliest get up time at 5:15 for Bikram.  Figures.

2021-12-02 1:36 PM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open
Thanks for getting us set up for another go around Mike. Yes, Gretchen is one of many faces we don't see from these days. Hopefully everything she was dealing with is working out and she's back someday.

Good job on the double Mike.

Nathalie, I think I'm saying the same thing over and over, but we have very different ideas of what 'lovely; temperatures are. That said, mid 20's with 95%+ humidity like we get through summer isn't that great either.

I've had a solid but measured start to the week. 2 morning runs, and 2 evening zwifts. So something every day. It's looking like I'm going to have a couple of bigger days over the weekend, which isn't how my plan is supposed to work. But we'll get some work done.

In other news, our slight restriction of covid rules has begun. We are now in a new 'traffic light' system. Red of course (couldn't let the plebs have too much fun...) But the good news is on Monday the pools re open. All going to plan I'll be having my first swim since march in the next few days.


2021-12-04 7:20 AM
in reply to: bulfrog

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open

Andrew, great news on the pool opening - that should be an interesting swim. 

2021-12-06 9:50 AM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open

Speaking of swims, I did an actual swim workout today vs. just floating around in the pool.  Only 1300 but some decent intensity and got in a strength workout afterwards.  Happy Monday! (well, I guess it's almost Tuesday for Andrew)

2021-12-06 5:01 PM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open
Yup, Happy Tuesday from the future.

Not going to have a winge, but last week kicked my arse. Only 3 1/2 hours total and nothing over the weekend. (First birthday party for miss almost 1 on Saturday, F-I-L in hospital overnight, (turns out kidney stones, he's fine. But not a good phone call to wake up to Sunday morning) So drawing a line under it and moving on to a better week.

Haven't been to the pool yet, but I am hopeful of at least 1 swim this week. Good job Mike getting one done. I'm also going to back the intensity off a bit on zwift, I'm going to change some sweet spot rides, into easy endurance rides. Hopefully that will help with the fatuige/general tiredness I've been having the last few weeks. A blood nose for Mr 4 at 12am this morning doesn't help the energy levels tho... :/

Have a good week team.

Oh yeah, saw this on Facebook, and though of you Nathalie: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?ref=saved&v=414122803745162- Madness
2021-12-08 11:17 AM
in reply to: bulfrog

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open

@Andrew - interesting discussing on your pulling back on intensity in cycling.  You mentioned sweet spot riding as being a problem, but man that's the single most productive zone to train in for an endurance rider who doesn't have hours and hours available to train.  Maybe do top of tempo zone instead (like 82-25% instead of 88-92%)? 

I struggled a couple of years ago when first doing sweet spot work because I wasn't well-adapted mentally to that type of training (I'd either do long rides outside or thrash around short races).  Ratcheting down the wattage targets just a few percentage points did the trick (at the suggestion of someone on BT who is a cycling coach), and then I was able to complete the longer (like 20-25 min) SS intervals, eventually at up to 92%.  If you're toast after a sweet spot workout that's less than an hour in that zone, maybe your FTP is off as well.

As for me, I got in a good VO2 max prep workout yesterday, with 4 x 3' @ 105-107% FTP with 3' recoveries....that's barely VO2 max work so it wasn't that hard but it gets harder every week in my plan. The hardest one is the legendary Jorge Martinez Winter Cycling Plan special of 6 x 4' @ 105% with 45" recoveries, but I won't be ready for that kind of eye-bleeding workout for at least a couple of months. 

Today was Bikram and tomorrow a short sweet spot ride.  Hope everyone is having a good week!

 

2021-12-08 1:48 PM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the feedback. Now let me pick your brains some more, I have lots of questions.

First thing, for Ironman I was basing my training on the 80:20 theory/books. Now the proponents of 80:20 claim whether your training 4, or 40 hours a week, the ratio should stay about the same. This flies in the face of my understanding of sweet spot training, where you do a bulk of work above the LT. And so many people push sweet spot training, as you pointed out. My non scientific eye says if I cant increase volume I should increase effort, which is why I'm wanting to add some sweet spot in. But it's totally contradictory advise. Which causes me some confusion. I take it your advice would be to throw out the 80:20 concept for riding and hit the sweet spot hard?

For the sweet spot stuff I've done so far, I've still been doing relatively short intervals, 2x10 or 3x8 @87-91% in a in a 45 minute ride etc. I was handling the workouts fine. It was more the cumulative fatuige over the week I was trying to fix. Although I do need to do another FTP test, probably over the Christmas break, when I can schedule some rest for the days before.

So your saying rather than disappear sweet spot I should change drop that 87-91% down to 85-89% sort of range? At least in the interim.

What do you think about my home made plan for my evening rides. I'm looking at 5 rides per week, 4-6 hours on the bike:

1 x 45-60 min workout with FTP intervals (95-100%)
1 x 45-60 min workout with VO2 intervals (105-120%)
2 x 45-60 min Sweet Spot workouts (85-93%) 1 x longer 60-120min workout endurance zone (70-85%) with maybe some sweet spot stuff.

As fitness builds intervals get longer, and higher up the target power zone.

3 x 45 minute zwift rides so far this week. 1 FTP, 1 VO2, 1 Endurance.
But no runs... again... I disgust myself.


2021-12-09 7:50 AM
in reply to: bulfrog

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open
Originally posted by bulfrogHi Mike, Thanks for the feedback. Now let me pick your brains some more, I have lots of questions. First thing, for Ironman I was basing my training on the 80:20 theory/books. Now the proponents of 80:20 claim whether your training 4, or 40 hours a week, the ratio should stay about the same. This flies in the face of my understanding of sweet spot training, where you do a bulk of work above the LT. And so many people push sweet spot training, as you pointed out. My non scientific eye says if I cant increase volume I should increase effort, which is why I'm wanting to add some sweet spot in. But it's totally contradictory advise. Which causes me some confusion. I take it your advice would be to throw out the 80:20 concept for riding and hit the sweet spot hard? For the sweet spot stuff I've done so far, I've still been doing relatively short intervals, 2x10 or 3x8 @87-91% in a in a 45 minute ride etc. I was handling the workouts fine. It was more the cumulative fatuige over the week I was trying to fix. Although I do need to do another FTP test, probably over the Christmas break, when I can schedule some rest for the days before.So your saying rather than disappear sweet spot I should change drop that 87-91% down to 85-89% sort of range? At least in the interim. What do you think about my home made plan for my evening rides. I'm looking at 5 rides per week, 4-6 hours on the bike: 1 x 45-60 min workout with FTP intervals (95-100%)1 x 45-60 min workout with VO2 intervals (105-120%)2 x 45-60 min Sweet Spot workouts (85-93%) (70-85%) with maybe some sweet spot stuff.As fitness builds intervals get longer, and higher up the target power zone.3 x 45 minute zwift rides so far this week. 1 FTP, 1 VO2, 1 Endurance. But no runs... again... I disgust myself.
2021-12-09 7:52 AM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open

I just wrote a dissertation and BT lost it when I posted. 

2021-12-09 9:46 AM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open

OK, Andrew, I'm going to try to write this again.  LOL

I'm not all that familiar with the 80/20 Fink plan, but I'm assuming it's 80% easy 20% hard, which philosophically makes sense but I guess it depends on how you implement it. 

The first thing to consider is what you're trying to accomplish with this particular training block.  For instance, I just completed Base 1 (4 weeks) where the main goals for me were to get used to the schedule, get back in the water, and start a little jogging.  These workouts were really easy and unstructured for the most part.  The only real intensity was me chasing some PRs in sprints in Zwift.

I'm now starting Base 2 where the goals become get into more structured training, introducing programmed intervals on the bike, continue to slowly ramp up jogging, and then get in swim shape so I physically survive Masters class next month.  My cycling looks like this:

  • Tuesday:  40-45' VO2 max intervals, followed by a short treadmill workout
  • Wednesday:  30' Z2 in aero (the drops right now, but will jump on my tri bike next year once I get my fitting done)
  • Thursday:  40-45' sweet spot intervals, again with a short run
  • Friday:  long Z2 ride building to 2 hours over time

I also have my long "run" on Saturday, with swimming on Monday and Friday, day off on Sunday.  My interval training is really easy right now, but will build over time (I did 3 x 6' @ 88-90% this morning, which felt really easy after yesterday's easy day).

OK, so let's look at yours:

  • 1 x 45-60 min workout with FTP intervals (95-100%)
  • 1 x 45-60 min workout with VO2 intervals (105-120%)
  • 2 x 45-60 min Sweet Spot workouts (85-93%)
  • 1 x longer 60-120min workout endurance zone (70-85%)

First off, there are 2 hard and 2-3 hard-ish workouts a week right there depending on how hard you hit that endurance one.  That's like a cycling build, not a triathlon base plan, and not even accounting for swimming and running.  I think you'd be fine with one or the other of the VO2 max / threshold ones (maybe alternate?)...they're the toughest to recover from and hit more or less the same systems.  I'd do one sweet spot at 60' building to 2 x 25' @ 88-90% but like you said you can start in the low/mid 80s until you get mentally acclimated to that type of training.  I'd keep the longer one but stay in Z2, so that's 75% max of FTP.  If you're feeling particularly good throw in some sprints / cadence work or a sweet spot interval.  If you can handle it during the week, add in another shorter sweet spot one, or just short/medium another Z2 ride. 

Based on your workout intensities, it looks like you're trying to raise your FTP (which is a good thing).  Tough part about that is it takes some intensity, which prevents you from building endurance.  It's hard to do both at the same time, and you have limited training time available PLUS you're bound to experience some inconsistency because of your work travel and the day-to-day stress of raising a family. 

Happy to keep the conversation going - I enjoy the geeking out on this stuff. 

2021-12-09 7:15 PM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open
Mike,

Thanks for the dissertation, there are some good points in there thank, you definitely get a passing grade

Regarding the 80:20 plan, I'm not sure if Fink does one, but the books I have read are Matt Fitzgerald, based on Steven Seilers research/science. Yes you have it right, 80% easy (below lactate threshold), 20% hard. But they also push avoiding the 'comfortably hard' bit in the middle. They actually have 2 HR/Power zones to avoid training in. Interestingly the zones to avoid are 85-91%, and 100-102%. So one were to follow 80:20 to the letter sweet spot is gone.

The gist of it is easy is easy, hard is very hard. Avoid the grey bit in the middle, which isn't hard enough to get full benefits. But isn't easy enough so you still need significant recovery.

The way I'm coming to look at it, those concepts make a lot more sense for running than riding. Mainly due to the recovery cost/high impact nature of hard runs. Anyway, as I know you, like me, like to geek out on these things, I'd recommend 80:20 triathlon, Matt Fitzgerald for some Christmas reading for you. Lots of sciencey stuff to read about training.

Side note; From what I've read this is how the norweigens, Iden and Blummenfelt train. Of course they do a bit more in a week than us mortals.

2nd side note, your training week, 2 x 45 min workouts of varying intervals, and 2hr 30 of Z2 riding, is probably pretty close to the 80:20 ratio if you add it all up. Obviously depending on how ,any/how long your recovery periods are in the harder workouts.

Now, for my stuff.

So, I read 'working triathlete' and got all excited about his concepts. One of which was something like 'you don't have time to ride easy, put the bike on a trainer and ride hard' which is why I tried to swap out easy rides for sweet spot. I think we're all in agreement that that was too much intensity too soon. Maybe one day, but not now. So rather than 2 quality workouts (FTP/VO2) plus sweet spot, sweet spot should be one of those workouts.

I'm fairly comfortable riding 5 nights a week, gives me something to do between kids bedtime and mine . So something like

1 x FTP/VO2 workout 45ish minutes. Alternating week to week
1 x Sweet Spot, 60 minutes. Getting longer/harder intervals over time up to 2 x 25min as you suggest.
1 x Z2, endurance workout. 45-60min
1 x long Z2, 60-120 min. Maybe some hard efforts in the back half depending on how I feel.
1 x optional, Z2/SweetSpot 45ish minutes depending on how the energy levels for the week are feeling.

Obviously arranging the week so that there is a gap between the harder workouts.

Now I just need to figure out what the goal is... The goal is sustainable, regular training that brings improvement. I suppose next year is more like a massive base year, rather than aiming for any specific event. You're right family and work (hopefully allowed to travel next year) will mess things up throughout the year. But I am very much coming to the belief that it's the sum of all the parts that matter, not 1 or 2 hero workouts. (as nice as those are for the strava kudos)

So if I work on my endurance, I can ride at a higher % of my FTP for longer, and go faster... or if I raise my FTP I can go faster while riding at a lower % of my FTP, but at a higher power overall.... Why not both

Have a good weekend everyone
2021-12-16 9:54 AM
in reply to: bulfrog

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open

Hi, all.  Back from Mexico with a fresh negative COVID test (my first, if you can believe that) and a positive case of the stomach bug.    I think it's one of those traveling norovirus things.  Fun times.  I got in a couple of swims and runs down there and a nice tan.  

Once this passes back at it in Maryland.

What's everyone doing for the holiday?  We're having a few people over then driving to Florida for about three weeks where I'll take a couple of weeks off and also do some "work from the condo" stuff again.



2021-12-17 10:19 AM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open

Oh, and I also got a new toy, a Garmin Fenix 6X.  It replaces my Fenix 2 or 3 (can't remember) which is a huge upgrade.  I'm still keeping my 920XT around as my swimming watch because it weighs like half of the 6X and has really easy to push buttons on the front.  I like the integrated HR monitor on these newer watches, though I'll still use the chest strap on the bike I can toss my other optical one.

Tummy bug seems to have run its course so I plan on getting back at it tomorrow.  Pretty dehydrated right now so sipping all day on fluids.

2021-12-19 2:31 PM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open
Welcome back from your break Mike. I can totally believe it was your first one, I have yet to have a test. Mrs Bullfrog has had several tho.

Congrats on the new watch. One of the local retailers here had the fenix 6 at 50% off for black Friday... I was so close to pulling that trigger. So yes, I'm jealous.

Ok week for me, 5 rides (1 FTP, 1 Sweet Spot, 2xZ2 easy and 1 longer, 90 minute one) and 2 runs for the week. Just over 5 1/2 hours total. Happy with that.

For the holidays, we finish work on the 23rd, then Christmas day will be manic. Breakfast with the little ones opening presents at home, lunch at my in-laws and back across town for dinner at my parents. So 3 Christmases. Very much looking forward to boxing day, when it's all over. I've got a couple of weeks off, as NZ pretty much shuts down for the break, we will be having new years at the beach, maybe 5 or 6 days down there total. 2 of my cousins who have similarly aged kids to us will be there too this year, so it'll be nice for the little ones to have some play mates.
2021-12-21 12:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open
Wow, that was quite a read, you two! I wasn’t prepared to think and learn so much so “early” in the day! Haha. Great convo!
I’m still here, following along with everyone. I haven’t had a lot to post with constant work the last two weeks (playing elf). I fit in a small workout here and there but nothing major yet. Once the holidays wind down and schedules get a little more normal I hope to be back at it. I’ll be including skiing as some of my workouts between Christmas and New Years. Yay!
Yes… I still have to write my race report.. I know. Haha
2021-12-21 12:56 PM
in reply to: #5279090

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open
Oh, Mike, thanks for starting the new group, let me know when y’all move over to that one.
Does anyone know if Dave did the Boston run with his son? Also, where’s Gretchen? I hope all is well with them. I hate when people just disappear, I worry.
2021-12-21 6:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open
Got in a 30 minute walk/run today in Dallas plus some core work. Off to bed, up at 01:00 to elf.


2021-12-23 7:38 AM
in reply to: aviatrix802

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open

Originally posted by aviatrix802 Oh, Mike, thanks for starting the new group, let me know when y’all move over to that one. Does anyone know if Dave did the Boston run with his son? Also, where’s Gretchen? I hope all is well with them. I hate when people just disappear, I worry.

Hi, Jenn!  Yeah, don't know what happened to Gretchen.  I reached out to her a couple of times via PM letting her know we were thinking about her, but no response.  I could email her at work (that's not stalking...right??  ) but don't want to intrude.  Sometimes people are just done with this sport (and this site LOL).

Glad to hear from you so I didn't have to hunt you down as well.    (actually I knew you were just fine from Strava - nice burn tan ). 

We're driving down to Orlando for about three weeks on Monday.  Not bringing my bike this time so I'll have to fight with a hundred other people (including my wife) for the one Peloton bike they have at our resort.  They have a 25 meter lap pool which is always humbling.

Hope you all have a great holiday!

2021-12-28 8:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open
Merry Christmas super late!
Mike, I’ll have to pick your brain on the watch, I got a Fenix 6s for Christmas. I too am keeping my 920 because I’ve worn it 24/7 for 6 years and I almost feel like I’m cheating on it or something. Haha. I feel guilty for having a new watch! There is so much stuff on this thing it’s mind boggling and I couldn’t figure out how to get it to track my skiing today. Googling now for tomorrow. Haha!
2021-12-29 7:17 AM
in reply to: #5279159

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open
Not one YouTube has helped me to figure out how to simply “start” an activity. I’m switching back to my 920 until I figure this out. Facepalm
2021-12-29 10:26 AM
in reply to: aviatrix802

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Subject: RE: Beer Drinkers Appreciation Society (BDAS) --Always Open
Hi all! I hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas and is ready for 2022! I know I am, even though I feel like I just got used to writing 2021 on stuff...what a weird year.

I've been off the grid, mostly just doing stuff on my Peloton, although I have been at my parents and was planning on running a bunch and have run not one time. I'm ready to get back into it though. The weather has actually been pretty good in MD so I don't even have the excuse of not liking training in the cold. I need to get back in the pool as well.

Oh I did my first FTP test! I did it on the Peloton so not sure if it translates so well but man it was not fun. I'm doing a power zone challenge starting Jan 3rd so will be interesting to see how much it changes over that period of time.

Should we switch over to the new group now? I don't know when they archive these.
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