General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Power questions Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
2016-08-18 7:27 AM

User image

Expert
2852
20005001001001002525
Pfafftown, NC
Subject: Power questions
If there is a source I should go to (to do my own research), feel free to point me in that direction.

1. What are the advantages/disadvantages of using 3 sec., 5 sec. 30 sec. (other?) power readings?

2. Let's say I'm going to try to do a 20' test, next week. Can someone point me to a method that is widely accepted? I don't know exactly when to start the test......which data to track (see Q # 1), etc...

3. Let's say I've accomplished step 2 and determined my FTP is 215. My goal is to ride my HIM bike leg at (____%) of FTP. The numbers are ridiculously low (eye opener) when I am descending and pretty darned high (higher than I would have expected) when I climb. I have set a data field to track % of FTP. I'm using the default setting for FTP right now, so the actual # (in my head) doesn't matter, currently. But, let's assume 215 is correct and 172 = 80% of that (we don't have to assume that part! ). How do you manage hills? Do you allow yourself a certain margin for a certain amount of time (to go over that)? What have YOU done, in this scenario?

4. What would have to be present in a bike course/race for you to abandon power and use HR?

This will probably spark more Q's!

Thanks


2016-08-18 8:17 AM
in reply to: nc452010

User image

Expert
4924
20002000500100100100100
Middle River, Maryland
Silver member
Subject: RE: Power questions

I can comment on 1 and 2:

1)  Those different power readings create your "power curve" - a distribution that gives you some idea about your different types of fitness related to cycling, and can also give you some insight into your strengths and weaknesses should you want to explore cycling as a discipline.  I would say in general the quicker intervals don't mean much to triathletes.  And unless you've done some intervals specifically designed to max-out those shorter intervals, I doubt they're accurate for you anyway.

2)  The Trainer Road 20' test protocol has you do 20' WU with three 1' intervals at and above threshold spaced at 10-15' marks, then a 5' test, then a 5' rest, then 20' all-out, and then cool down.  It HURTS.

2016-08-18 8:28 AM
in reply to: nc452010

User image

Not a Coach
11473
5000500010001001001001002525
Media, PA
Subject: RE: Power questions

This is a start for you:  http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/05/the-seven-deadly-sins.html

If the goal is to average x watts for a race, I would expect to be very close to x on most sections.  But steep hills I would expect to be a little over x (but preferably still below FTP unless very short & steep).  On downhills, I would coast once I hit maybe mid-high 30s mph.

I would never abandon power and use HR.  However, I may abandon power (or HR) and use RPE.

2016-08-18 10:31 AM
in reply to: nc452010

User image

Pro
6582
50001000500252525
Melbourne FL
Gold member
Subject: RE: Power questions

Originally posted by nc452010 If there is a source I should go to (to do my own research), feel free to point me in that direction. 1. What are the advantages/disadvantages of using 3 sec., 5 sec. 30 sec. (other?) power readings? 2. Let's say I'm going to try to do a 20' test, next week. Can someone point me to a method that is widely accepted? I don't know exactly when to start the test......which data to track (see Q # 1), etc... 3. Let's say I've accomplished step 2 and determined my FTP is 215. My goal is to ride my HIM bike leg at (____%) of FTP. The numbers are ridiculously low (eye opener) when I am descending and pretty darned high (higher than I would have expected) when I climb. I have set a data field to track % of FTP. I'm using the default setting for FTP right now, so the actual # (in my head) doesn't matter, currently. But, let's assume 215 is correct and 172 = 80% of that (we don't have to assume that part! ). How do you manage hills? Do you allow yourself a certain margin for a certain amount of time (to go over that)? What have YOU done, in this scenario? 4. What would have to be present in a bike course/race for you to abandon power and use HR? This will probably spark more Q's! Thanks
On #1 its a smoothing function, I use 3 sec on the trainer (VP).  If doing a long steady WO longer averaging provides a less jittery readout.  If doing short intervals the shorter averaging is more useful (IMHO), to a point.  If your cadence is 80 that's one every 0.75 sec, 3 sec avg gives you 4 per average period.

#2 See this (http://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201794984-20-Minute-vs-8-Minute-FTP-Test) for an example of the typical 20' test.  About the dual 8' test, I don't know anyone that's done it.

There's also Critical Power which I like because its based on two (or more) tests intervals and not a % of a single test.  It can be interesting to see the changes in the two tests over a training cycle.  BT has a calculator here with the test descriptions: http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/training/cycling-zone-calc.asp

#3 & 4 were covered above by others with more experience!

2016-08-18 10:54 AM
in reply to: 0

User image

Subject: RE: Power questions

Originally posted by jmhpsu93

I can comment on 1 and 2:

1)  Those different power readings create your "power curve" - a distribution that gives you some idea about your different types of fitness related to cycling, and can also give you some insight into your strengths and weaknesses should you want to explore cycling as a discipline.  I would say in general the quicker intervals don't mean much to triathletes.  And unless you've done some intervals specifically designed to max-out those shorter intervals, I doubt they're accurate for you anyway.

2)  The Trainer Road 20' test protocol has you do 20' WU with three 1' intervals at and above threshold spaced at 10-15' marks, then a 5' test, then a 5' rest, then 20' all-out, and then cool down.  It HURTS.

 

I read OP's #1 question to be about the head unit readout, not the power curve, although that may be the question which you answered.   If the former, it's really just a question of smoothing out the display so it does not jump around erratically, the longer intervals will be smoother.

#2, not sure there is a consensus (in fact confident there is not).   Some say only 1 hour outside is accurate.  Others use 20' with a 5' blowout.   Others use 20' one day and 5' a few days later.   Whichever you choose, be consistent so you can track it.   Anything short of an hour is an estimate anyway so mathematical precision isn't necessarily required. 

#3 the "conventional wisdom" is to smooth out the entire ride so your Variability Index (VI, by dividing normalized power by average power) so that the VI is close to 1.0.  Flat course should be about 1.0.   On a hilly course my VI can be 1.10 or more.   Theoretically a high VI can have some effects later on the run.  

#4 Unless race was super hot or hard and everything has fallen apart, I'd never completely abandon power, but I'd use it in conjunction with HR.  I.e. I wouldn't keep trying to hit power numbers at a HR that I know I couldn't sustain



Edited by ChrisM 2016-08-18 10:56 AM
2016-08-18 11:17 AM
in reply to: ChrisM

User image

Expert
2852
20005001001001002525
Pfafftown, NC
Subject: RE: Power questions
You guys are awesome.

Thank you.


2016-08-18 1:29 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

User image

Expert
4924
20002000500100100100100
Middle River, Maryland
Silver member
Subject: RE: Power questions

Originally posted by ChrisM

 

I read OP's #1 question to be about the head unit readout, not the power curve, although that may be the question which you answered. 

Re-reading it, I agree.  Oops. 

2016-08-18 1:55 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Subject: RE: Power questions

Originally posted by jmhpsu93

Originally posted by ChrisM

 

I read OP's #1 question to be about the head unit readout, not the power curve, although that may be the question which you answered. 

Re-reading it, I agree.  Oops. 

Actually, from a training standpoint, I think your question is also an important one, when addressing what to do with all this info?



Edited by ChrisM 2016-08-18 1:59 PM
2016-08-19 7:37 PM
in reply to: nc452010

User image

Veteran
720
500100100
Aurora, Illinois
Subject: RE: Power questions
Originally posted by nc452010

If there is a source I should go to (to do my own research), feel free to point me in that direction.

1. What are the advantages/disadvantages of using 3 sec., 5 sec. 30 sec. (other?) power readings?

2. Let's say I'm going to try to do a 20' test, next week. Can someone point me to a method that is widely accepted? I don't know exactly when to start the test......which data to track (see Q # 1), etc...

3. Let's say I've accomplished step 2 and determined my FTP is 215. My goal is to ride my HIM bike leg at (____%) of FTP. The numbers are ridiculously low (eye opener) when I am descending and pretty darned high (higher than I would have expected) when I climb. I have set a data field to track % of FTP. I'm using the default setting for FTP right now, so the actual # (in my head) doesn't matter, currently. But, let's assume 215 is correct and 172 = 80% of that (we don't have to assume that part! ). How do you manage hills? Do you allow yourself a certain margin for a certain amount of time (to go over that)? What have YOU done, in this scenario?

4. What would have to be present in a bike course/race for you to abandon power and use HR?

This will probably spark more Q's!

Thanks


Congrats on the power meter, will change the way you train! Make sure you also track your weight in whatever system you are using to analyze data as watts / kilo is a key metric to track. 200 watts at 200 pounds is way different then 200 watts at 175 pounds.

To answer your questions (and these are my thoughts, I'm sure there are many!)

1) if you are talking about the reading on your head unit, usually 10 seconds is fine. If you do instant or 3 seconds, you'll see power is extremely sensitive. Hit a small pot hole and your power will change a lot. So keeping it at 10 seconds it averages it and smooths it out a bit more during your ride. Makes it easier to read.

2) many different options. I like having athletes do a 1 minute leg opener, 5 min blow and then a 20 minute all out ride. Then take 95% of that last 20 minutes to figure FTP.

3) Look at average power or normalized power (I prefer NP) during a race. It smooths it out based on the ups and downs. But, really you should be consistent during the race. From your power tests you should know what your max 30 sec, 1, 3, 5 & 8 minute amounts are. That way, since you'll know your max you'll NEVER want to go above those, or close to them, in a HIM. Or, your legs will be blown for the run.

4). Unless my power meter crashes, catches fire, gives me the middle finger and no longer works, I'll never abandon it and favor HR in a race.

Hope that helps!
2016-08-19 10:19 PM
in reply to: #5195647

User image

Coach
9167
5000200020001002525
Stairway to Seven
Subject: RE: Power questions
Good resources: joe friels training with power (intro) and training and racing with a powere meter (coffin and Allen). Also phils skibas power book.
2016-08-20 7:24 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Power questions

Originally posted by AdventureBear Good resources: joe friels training with power (intro) and training and racing with a powere meter (coffin and Allen). Also phils skibas power book.

*Coggan. Know it was an autocorrect, but not sure someone who doesn't already know the name would get it. 



2016-08-20 8:09 AM
in reply to: #5195914

User image

Coach
9167
5000200020001002525
Stairway to Seven
Subject: RE: Power questions
Coggan would probably not appreciate it either! Thanks
2016-08-20 1:31 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

User image

Extreme Veteran
1175
1000100252525
Langley, BC, 'Wet Coast' Canada
Subject: RE: Power questions
In a Monty Pytbon-esque voice-over.... "I'm not quite dead yet".


New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Power questions Rss Feed  
RELATED POSTS

Some power questions from a power rookie

Started by Bripod
Views: 1232 Posts: 8

2012-05-16 11:05 PM Bripod

Yes, another dreaded HR vs Power question

Started by KirkD
Views: 782 Posts: 5

2011-02-04 11:23 AM KirkD

Training with power question, basic but nagging. Pages: 1 2

Started by Kido
Views: 1970 Posts: 33

2010-09-16 1:24 PM GoFaster

20 Min TT Power Question

Started by hockeyhands
Views: 2683 Posts: 17

2010-05-13 10:43 AM FeltonR.Nubbinsworth

Bike Fitting/power Question

Started by brian
Views: 575 Posts: 2

2006-12-11 1:50 PM running2far
RELATED ARTICLES
date : April 19, 2009
author : jasongootman
comments : 0
Learn how a power meter can serve a role as a race-reconnaissance tool and to help in pacing so you don't go out too hard. Race power analysis included.
 
date : March 4, 2009
author : jasongootman
comments : 0
In this third part, we discuss bike workout types and how they relate to power training. Power analysis of workouts included. Presented by Tri-Hard coaching and Fit Werx.
date : January 20, 2009
author : jasongootman
comments : 0
In this second part, we discuss indoor, outdoor and ramp functional threshold tests to determine your power training zones. Presented by Tri-Hard coaching and Fit Werx.
 
date : December 3, 2008
author : jasongootman
comments : 0
What is power training? In this first part, learn the terms and definitions associated with power training. Presented by Tri-Hard coaching and Fit Werx.
date : October 21, 2008
author : Coach AJ
comments : 1
Training with a power meter will make sure that you are spending every minute on the bike effectively. Racing with a power meter will keep you humble and in your proper zones on race day.
 
date : April 1, 2008
author : sportfactory
comments : 1
How will a power meter help my cycling training and racing? A few questions and answers will help determine if a power meter will be good for you.
date : March 17, 2008
author : CPT
comments : 0
In this third segment, Colorado Premier Training goes through several bike position tests to improve on rider efficiency. This was accomplished by varying the saddle height and aerobar width.
 
date : December 3, 2007
author : CPT
comments : 5
Colorado Premier Training goes over the basics of what bike power training is and how it relates to your optimal bike position.