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MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend...
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 2009-07-14 1:07 PM |
Champion  9600     Fountain Hills, AZ |  Subject: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend...Well, I don't know if it's a trend, but there are some local athletes here in Phoenix who have adopted a training protocol whcih consists os massive training blocks where they will swim 30,000 yards in one week, run 70+ miles another week or ride 300 mile sin a week. They also do overdistance training (not on the run) where they ride 120 miles followed by 8 mile runs! They also race multiple IM's per year.They do have one thing in common, they are all friends and fans of Hilary Biscay. A few of them are coached by her and I think it's her influence which creating these volume monsters. She is well known for huge training and multiple IM racing. I have to say, I am not a big fan of this protocol, but that's just my opinion. These are all well established athletes who have been trying to KQ for years and have done it this year. I have no doubt the volume helped, but some are getting injured or worse, having accidents which could jepordize their Hawaii prospects. It's almost like they do big training just to saythey can do it as opposed to training with purpose and specificity. Anyone else know a volume freak in their local tri community? |
| 2009-07-14 1:15 PM in reply to: #2284601 |
| Subject: RE: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend... Yes, I know a guy in the 45-49 AG desperately trying to qualify by overtraining. He'll do a 15 mile run on Friday followed by 120 on the bike Sat, then 2 mile swim Sun and another 120 on the bike. On the Tuesday after CdA, he swam for an hour, did a spin class, and then ran several miles. He follows no plan and has no coach. We are all waiting (but not hoping for) for the inevitable burnout. Unfortunately, he's well down in his AG and about :40 away from coming close to qualifying There's also a pretty good post by Dev on that other site about normal AGers overtraining Edited by ChrisM 2009-07-14 1:16 PM |
| 2009-07-14 1:20 PM in reply to: #2284601 |
Pro 3906 Libertyville, IL | Subject: RE: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend... what kind of intensity are they doing these sessions at? |
| 2009-07-14 1:25 PM in reply to: #2284642 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend... jszat - 2009-07-14 1:20 PM what kind of intensity are they doing these sessions at? Whatever they qualify as "Base". They do interval and tempo work as well but man, they do a lot of base work. Not Zone 1 stupid easy work. |
| 2009-07-14 1:33 PM in reply to: #2284660 |
| over a barrier | Subject: RE: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend... I think adding in a big Tri week and a big bike week are good ideas if they're seperated by a few weeks, but doing these week in and week out would drive me insane. I need some life / tri balance..... A couple of training camps were you get away and put in quality and long sessions is a great idea but I'd avoid the weekly big volume stuff. I'd rather work up the intensity and drop the volume to get my training doses. Edited by running2far 2009-07-14 1:34 PM |
| 2009-07-14 1:44 PM in reply to: #2284601 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend... bryancd - 2009-07-14 1:07 PM Well, I don't know if it's a trend, but there are some local athletes here in Phoenix who have adopted a training protocol whcih consists os massive training blocks where they will swim 30,000 yards in one week, run 70+ miles another week or ride 300 mile sin a week. They also do overdistance training (not on the run) where they ride 120 miles followed by 8 mile runs! They also race multiple IM's per year.They do have one thing in common, they are all friends and fans of Hilary Biscay. A few of them are coached by her and I think it's her influence which creating these volume monsters. She is well known for huge training and multiple IM racing. I have to say, I am not a big fan of this protocol, but that's just my opinion. These are all well established athletes who have been trying to KQ for years and have done it this year. I have no doubt the volume helped, but some are getting injured or worse, having accidents which could jepordize their Hawaii prospects. It's almost like they do big training just to saythey can do it as opposed to training with purpose and specificity. Anyone else know a volume freak in their local tri community? Yup I know more than a few doing this and this approach is been made popular by guys like Gordo (epic camp) among other coaches. Locally there is a coaching group/team famous for all the volume they do @ steady pace (with limited intensity) and while it definitely works if you have the time, genes, management skills to have a life/job/family and desire to log 20-30 hrs of training per week every week IMO it is just not realistic nor applicable for most AGers with families, full time jobs, social life, other life priorities etc. As I've said many times, I think each athlete requires an specific training load and it is kind of crazy to advice people to just do a lot of training. Yes for some will work and even it might be the only route if their goal is something like KQ but others won't be able to cope with the demands. Yet they could find optimal training and perform even better with less volume but mixing it up with the adequate intensity to maximize their training gains. Some athletes enjoy the a lot of training approach and if that's what's makes them happy the go nuts I say; however I know more than a few guys who ended up either injured, sick and/or terribly burned out. For those who buy into this approach just be wise, careful and when in doubt it is always to do a little less and save something for the next session. Also, if you have success doing this more power to you! For those thinking about it remeber that conditioning the body to handle this kind of volume takes years in general and for some it might not be something they will be able to handle at all. Edited by JorgeM 2009-07-14 1:54 PM |
| 2009-07-14 2:54 PM in reply to: #2284601 |
Pro 5169 Burbs | Subject: RE: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend... Do these guys work? I mean, do they have day jobs ? not trying to sound snippy, but I cannot imagine that kind of volume + 40-50 hrs/ week + family |
| 2009-07-14 3:54 PM in reply to: #2284601 |
Pro 3906 Libertyville, IL | Subject: RE: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend... if you have the time and like to train AND can keep the proper intensities in check, I see no problem with it. Thats a lot of ifs though. I think most people err in 'more is more' and dont respect more volume + equal intensity at lower volumes can lead to injury or burnout or both. i could see myself doing more of this approach if i had the time as i like being outside. did the overdistance thing for last two marys at reasonable paces and mixed on it as i think maybe a little more intensity vs what plan had would have yielded. I dont think its for most folks though. |
| 2009-07-15 12:04 PM in reply to: #2284601 |
Champion 8540 the colony texas | Subject: RE: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend... this reminds me of the masters swim coach in the my area 60 years young,, 12+IM 's; Kona, all that blah blah Edited by Gaarryy 2009-07-15 12:04 PM |
| 2009-07-15 3:15 PM in reply to: #2284718 |
Expert 762 Missouri | Subject: RE: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend... JorgeM - 2009-07-14 1:44 PM bryancd - 2009-07-14 1:07 PM Well, I don't know if it's a trend, but there are some local athletes here in Phoenix who have adopted a training protocol whcih consists os massive training blocks where they will swim 30,000 yards in one week, run 70+ miles another week or ride 300 mile sin a week. They also do overdistance training (not on the run) where they ride 120 miles followed by 8 mile runs! They also race multiple IM's per year.They do have one thing in common, they are all friends and fans of Hilary Biscay. A few of them are coached by her and I think it's her influence which creating these volume monsters. She is well known for huge training and multiple IM racing. I have to say, I am not a big fan of this protocol, but that's just my opinion. These are all well established athletes who have been trying to KQ for years and have done it this year. I have no doubt the volume helped, but some are getting injured or worse, having accidents which could jepordize their Hawaii prospects. It's almost like they do big training just to saythey can do it as opposed to training with purpose and specificity. Anyone else know a volume freak in their local tri community? Yup I know more than a few doing this and this approach is been made popular by guys like Gordo (epic camp) among other coaches. Locally there is a coaching group/team famous for all the volume they do @ steady pace (with limited intensity) and while it definitely works if you have the time, genes, management skills to have a life/job/family and desire to log 20-30 hrs of training per week every week IMO it is just not realistic nor applicable for most AGers with families, full time jobs, social life, other life priorities etc. As I've said many times, I think each athlete requires an specific training load and it is kind of crazy to advice people to just do a lot of training. Yes for some will work and even it might be the only route if their goal is something like KQ but others won't be able to cope with the demands. Yet they could find optimal training and perform even better with less volume but mixing it up with the adequate intensity to maximize their training gains. Some athletes enjoy the a lot of training approach and if that's what's makes them happy the go nuts I say; however I know more than a few guys who ended up either injured, sick and/or terribly burned out. For those who buy into this approach just be wise, careful and when in doubt it is always to do a little less and save something for the next session. Also, if you have success doing this more power to you! For those thinking about it remeber that conditioning the body to handle this kind of volume takes years in general and for some it might not be something they will be able to handle at all. JorgeM, I don't believe that Gordo promotes this type of training all the time. True he has his Epic camps, but those are for elite triathletes and only for a specific amount of time. I just got back from his Boulder camp (not an epic camp) and yes the volume was high, but he has me backed down this week. I think Gordo is more for periodization training with purpose and specificity. Anyway, just my thoughts. . .
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 2009-07-15 5:44 PM in reply to: #2284601 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-07-16 8:19 AM in reply to: #2284601 |
| Master 1920 Ann Arbor, MI | Subject: RE: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend... The one guy that I know that trained like that missed both his planned IMs because he had 3 stress fractures- 1 in a hip, and one in each leg. But, guess what he's doing this year? Same thing. |
| 2009-07-16 8:52 AM in reply to: #2288937 |
| Master 1790 Tyler, TX | Subject: RE: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend... jazz82482 - 2009-07-16 8:19 AM The one guy that I know that trained like that missed both his planned IMs because he had 3 stress fractures- 1 in a hip, and one in each leg. But, guess what he's doing this year? Same thing. He apparently believes in the "overtrained is really undertrained" philosophy. That is, if you have overuse injuries it's not caused by overtraining, but really caused by undertraining to be able to handle required volume and intensity. So you have to train more, not less. As crazy as it sounds, there might be some logic in there.... Brian |
| 2009-07-16 8:59 AM in reply to: #2289023 |
| over a barrier | Subject: RE: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend... famelec - 2009-07-16 8:52 AM jazz82482 - 2009-07-16 8:19 AM The one guy that I know that trained like that missed both his planned IMs because he had 3 stress fractures- 1 in a hip, and one in each leg. But, guess what he's doing this year? Same thing. He apparently believes in the "overtrained is really undertrained" philosophy. That is, if you have overuse injuries it's not caused by overtraining, but really caused by undertraining to be able to handle required volume and intensity. So you have to train more, not less. As crazy as it sounds, there might be some logic in there.... Brian I believe that is actually a direct Biscay quote....oddly enough. |
| 2009-07-16 9:28 AM in reply to: #2284924 |
| Pro 4277 Parker, CO | Subject: RE: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend... trishie - 2009-07-14 1:54 PM Do these guys work? I mean, do they have day jobs ? not trying to sound snippy, but I cannot imagine that kind of volume + 40-50 hrs/ week + family exactly what I was thinking! that kind of training IS a full-time job! if it works for some...fine. At this point in my life, with family, work, etc., there is no way. I feel like I am taking away time from my family as it is with my training this summer. Not to mention the risk of injury with what could be considerred over-training. |
| 2009-07-16 10:00 AM in reply to: #2284601 |
| Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend... The group I think Jorge is referring to is local here in Boston area. Here is an article they have about their ideas. I know a few folks coaches by them and one of their coaches. I hear a bit about their training when I see them. I like volume but I don't think I could do it as it would be crushing for me. The one I know following this protocol that I have spoken to the most is young and missed KQ spot by 45" last year and is very talented. He rides 6 days a week only once outside rest on his computrainer as it is more efficient time wise and safer. Edited by KathyG 2009-07-16 10:02 AM |
| 2009-07-16 11:50 PM in reply to: #2284601 |
| Veteran 294 Boston | Subject: RE: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend... I know a guy who is primarily a cyclist who occasionally dabbles in the fine art of IM. Anyway, he did a race last year (I think IM AZ) for which his swim training consisted of seriously about 1 month of almost non-existent swim prep (he knew how to swim before hand but spends minimal time in the pool) and extremely little running prep (often a workout like 2 x 20 minutes with pretty high intensity), his longest run maybe being around 12 miles. His cycling however was probably a little higher than average mileage for the serious IMer, maybe 180 - 250 miles / week. Anyway, he came less than 30 minutes from qualifying for Kona in the 18-24 age group. Now I know 30 minutes is a lot, but considering his run and swim prep... No doubt this guy is among the extreme minority, but my points are: a) everyone's body thrives under very different training volumes, and b) more is DEFINITELY not necessarily going to make you faster. IF one does adopt such a high mileage plan, I would hope very much that they have all of those hours planned very carefully as to how they are going to carry them out, as well as scheduled rest. That sort of training definitely can make some people thrive but it could be detrimental to others. |
| 2009-07-17 1:43 PM in reply to: #2284601 |
| Champion 7558 Albuquerque, New Mexico | Subject: RE: MASSIVE IM Training Volume trend... For any casual bystanders, I compared my training volumes with those of a couple IMCdA peeps who are (even without my injury during the race) considerably faster than I am. They weren't doing appreciably more volume than I was, and in some cases, substantially less. The things they have going for them are: 1) much more aggressive goals which lead to 2) much more structured/focused training. I showed up race day comfortable that I'd finish the race with a high likelihood of being within my goal time window. I knew the low end of the window would require almost perfect conditions/execution. I missed the upper end of the window when I broke my collarbone a little past half-way on the bike. I was very happy to avoid many of the tendonitis/PF/overuse ailments that seem to accompany many budding ironmen. |
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