Long run frequency???
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Extreme Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Folks, My first full IM is in September and I have a half in July. I am really nervous about the run part of the full IM. The end of last year I decided to focus on running. I did a marathon Oct 4. I have trained all through the winter in upstate NY. Last week I did my fastest ever 12 mile loop. I beat my prevoius PR by 1 minute per mile (ave 9:17 minute miles) . My long run Saturday was 20.3 miles. I do the run / walk for my long runs and the average was 10:41 minutes / mile. I recovered well and did the Spinervals Ride Up Mt. Lemmon this AM. I am thinking about doing a 20 mile long slow run every week (until I can ride outside) as I really love to run I'm just not that good at it. Is this a recipe for disaster? I like the mental comfort that comes from knowing I can do 20 miles on a regular basis without difficulty. Kevin |
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Not a Coach ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() You have no info in your logs, so it's hard to provide good advice. That said, I would NOT be spending that kind of time on a long run, especially right now. Run more frequently to build your running miles and don't go running much beyond 2 hours in duration for your long ones. Use the extra time for more biking and swimming. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() JohnnyKay - 2010-02-28 7:53 PM You have no info in your logs, so it's hard to provide good advice. That said, I would NOT be spending that kind of time on a long run, especially right now. Run more frequently to build your running miles and don't go running much beyond 2 hours in duration for your long ones. Use the extra time for more biking and swimming. x2 First IM I ran 3x a week and did huge percentage of my running volume in long runs. Last year for my second IM I ran 4x a week sometimes 5x and my long runs were smaller % of my weekly total. This year I'm working towards running 5x a week as I see frequency trumps long runs and my long runs will be even smaller % of my weekly total as that builds durability which I think is key in a good IM run. Running long and slow makes you good at running long and slow. You love to run so run more days but again I'm not sure how often you are running as you don't use your blog. |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() It sounds like you have developed the endurance side of your running, so I wouldn't run anymore 20 milers. 20 miles is a long way to run and it takes a lot of recovery time. You don't have anything in your logs, so this is more general advice: I would run shorter distances and mix in some faster runs. This would help with the speed side of your long runs and keep your runner's legs strong for the IM training. Above all else don't get injured. |
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Extreme Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() OK. I thought that would be the response, but I don't understand why. How does running shorter distances more frequently and faster prepare me to run a long distance relatively slowly in an IM race? I was thinking that after swimming 2.4 and riding 112 my run is going to be long and slow so training this way was the way to go. I am just not understanding the coaching part of the equation. Kevin |
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Not a Coach ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() chevy57 - 2010-03-01 10:33 AM OK. I thought that would be the response, but I don't understand why. How does running shorter distances more frequently and faster prepare me to run a long distance relatively slowly in an IM race? I was thinking that after swimming 2.4 and riding 112 my run is going to be long and slow so training this way was the way to go. I am just not understanding the coaching part of the equation. Kevin Shorter, more frequent running should allow you to run MORE overall with less impact on recovery. And that means you can bike & swim more too. For most IM athletes (especially first-timers), it is less disadvantageous to "skimp" on the run training--especially the very long runs--than they generally believe. The challenge for them isn't to run 26.2 miles when they are fatigued. The challenge is to get themselves to T2 in the least fatigued state possible. And then have just enough run durability to keep moving. I don't mean to say long runs (or rides or swims) aren't valuable. But people generally ascribe too much importance to those sessions, even months away from IM, and not enough on the value of simple consistency. Most all of the adaptations you need for the IM run can be achieved without running as long as you are doing. And most of them can be achieved with less recovery "cost" as well which becomes critical when you are trying to train 3 disciplines at the same time. Does that help? |
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Extreme Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() JohnnyKay, Yes that helps. A bit counterintuitive to me. I did search Endurance Nation and found similar advice on their site. Here is why I struggle with this. After my HIM last year I transitioned into a marathon training plan for an Oct 4 marathon. This plan had a hill session, Long (8 mile or so) tempo session and a interval session every week. I ended up with a minor hamstring tear (I think due to the speed work). I finished the marathon, but was not a great (5:21) experience. My one data point indicates that there is higher risk for injury doing the speed work. This year I figured I would not start any interval or tempo runs until I had a good solid base built. I have gone back and started adding my workouts to my training log as I realize it will allow people to give better input. I just don't seem to have the discipline to keep my logs up to date. I did download a new sofware version to my Garmin, hopefully that will speed up the download process. Kevin |
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Not a Coach ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I did NOT suggest you run shorter, but boost the intensity! I suggest you run EASY with more FREQUENCY and accumulate more TOTAL mileage. At the MOST, I would suggest doing some strides once a week (on a short-run day) and "tempo" (anywhere from 10k to half-marathon race pace) for a few miles (maybe 2-4, depending on how much you are running) during any of your runs depending upon how you feel. ZERO intervals on the track. And just do some of your running on hilly routes--don't worry about doing hill-specific workouts. The logs are your call, but it makes it easier for others to offer advice. And for you to review what you have done when you want to try to evaluate what has worked and/or what changes might be useful,. |
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Pro ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I love to run too, but 20 miles every week is overkill for an IM. Why? Most people spend their IM 'run' doing a run/ walk/ shuffle. You are MUCH better off, IMO, putting that time in the saddle. |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() One can run a first IM mary. But, just like marathon training you build to the long runs and peak before the race. So you may start with your long runs being 13-15 miles for the first few months and then build to 17-18 miles for the last 2 months before taper. You do need the swim fitness to come out of the water fresh and the bike fitness to not be dog tired coming into the run. So, are you following a plan for your IM or just winging it? I don't see too many plans with a weekly long of 20 miles for like 20-36 weeks. So pick a plan, follow it and you be fine. |
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Extreme Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Not following a plan right now. Still 28 weeks away from the race. I am trying to get down to my race weight early in the year. I want to be between 180 and 190 and am currently at 211. So I am trying to burn some extra calories. As I said I am really slow and trying to get faster. Last week I ran a 12 mile loop at 9:17 pace. This was the first time I ever broke the 10 minute mile barrier over an extended period of time. Today I did the same loop and averaged 9:08. Is 12 miles too much for a tempo run? I am really pumped up because I am getting faster and things are feeling good. My ave. HR was 149 so not off the charts, but higher than I would race at. I would like to run 10:30 - 11:00 minute miles in my IM. Sorry for all the questions, but I am still struggling with getting my arms around a full marathon after 2.4 swim and 112 on the bike. I understand that patience during the swim and bike will help. Kevin |
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Not a Coach ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() chevy57 - 2010-03-02 12:46 PM Not following a plan right now. Still 28 weeks away from the race. I am trying to get down to my race weight early in the year. I want to be between 180 and 190 and am currently at 211. So I am trying to burn some extra calories. As I said I am really slow and trying to get faster. Last week I ran a 12 mile loop at 9:17 pace. This was the first time I ever broke the 10 minute mile barrier over an extended period of time. Today I did the same loop and averaged 9:08. Is 12 miles too much for a tempo run? I am really pumped up because I am getting faster and things are feeling good. My ave. HR was 149 so not off the charts, but higher than I would race at. I would like to run 10:30 - 11:00 minute miles in my IM. Sorry for all the questions, but I am still struggling with getting my arms around a full marathon after 2.4 swim and 112 on the bike. I understand that patience during the swim and bike will help. Kevin 12 miles is too much for a "tempo" run as long as we have defined tempo to be in the range of 10k to half marathon race pace. 12 might be a reasonable distance to run at marathon race-pace and is a pretty solid workout. Why don't you share with us what your training has looked like over the past few weeks? Or enter it in the logs. You are looking for some specific advice and not giving us anything specific to work with. I don't have any idea what those paces or HR mean for you. What is your LTHR? Do you have some recent race results for a 5k or 10k that you can use to figure out some rough training paces for yourself? I still think it is likely that you are worrying too much about training the run and not enough about the bike & swim. Are you doing those right now? |
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Extreme Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() OK folks please accept my appologies for not filling out my logs. I understand that specific questions need to have the data for people to compare. Our home computer crashed (blue screen) on Feb 4 and returned from the shop on the 5th. We left for family vacation on the 6th. I have entered the data from Feb 6 into my logs and will keep them up to date from now on. The swim data is not shown because I don't wear my Garmin in the pool. I have been swimming twice a week and I just have been swimming 100 lengths freestyle no intervals just swimming along. Usually this takes between 58 and 60 minutes. I am not currently following a plan, but am trying to lose 20 or so pounds prior to the season starting. My goal is to be 190 by May. Thanks for your patience.
Kevin
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() From what you have in your logs, it looks like your long run is not supported by the rest of your run training. What I mean is that your long run is 60 percent of your weekly miles, which is too high. You either need to run more often during the week, shorter distances or you need to drop the distance on your long run. It also looks like all of your runs are in the lower Z1-2 zones. It wouldn't hurt to do a higher intenisty shorter run in there, pickups, half mile repeats at marathon pace, something. It looks like you are doing 3, 10, 20 or some variation where 4, 6, 5, 17 or 3, 6, 8, 3, 16 would be better for building speed and give you more safer miles to not be as open to injury as your current runs. Same with your swim and bike. Short/recovery and or brick, medium with some speed for part of it, longer but slower. If you are run/walking 20, how far can you go continuously. I would rather see a solid 14 than a run walk 20 as you building. Anyway my two coppers. |
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Not a Coach ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() That helps some. I would stick with most of what I said earlier. Run more frequently (add a 4th or, better, a 5th run) and cut your long run back to ~2 hours at least for now. That effort level for 12 miles seems pretty good. I would rather see you have more runs like that than any 20 milers at a minute or more slower than that. If you really don't have a probolem running ~30mpw (i.e., have been running at that level for a few months), then your runs could look something like: 3, 3, 6, 6, 12. Do 6-8 strides after one of the 3 milers. And weeks when you feel good, do some harder running in one of the 6's or ther 12. As hard as 10k pace for a couple miles or something more like marathon race pace for 8-10 of your 12 miler. If you don't know what those paces are, you can use HR as a guide. You should be near your LT for 10-k pace and high z2-z3 for marathon pace. Keep all the rest of your runing easy. You can do that by feel, pace or HR (z1-2). After several weeks, if you are feeling good, you can add some mileage to some of the runs. But I would make sure you have gotten back to regular swim training and maintaining (or building) the biking first. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Listen to what they are saying, all very good advise. 20 milers are great, but put a huge pounding on your body. Decrease that, and add another run to the week. A 20 mile run every week will end up hindering the rest of your sessions week after week. Holding the volume, or increasing it with several more shorter runs will do your body even better vs adding to your long run. Volume trumphs speed work; however, a bi-product of volume is speed. I am sure that your new 12 mile loop PR is a bi-product of the volume you have been doing. IMO, doing a good amount of speed work in training for an IM is a nice road to injury. I see that you want to increase your run speed for the IM, which will come with the volume you will put in before September, but remember on race day your swim sets up your bike, and your bike sets up your run. The key is to get to T2 as fresh as you can, so you can try to do your run in your target time/pace. I remember reading this tip during my IM training: bike, bike, and bike some more. When you think you have enough bike, bike again. Your bike fitness and hitting target zones on the bike will determine your run well before you take your first step out of T2. You have already read Endurance Nation: Four Keys to Ironman Execution, so you already know "A successful race = a good run. There is no such thing as a good bike followed by bad run, period." Start hitting the bike now, either outside or the trainer. YES, you can train for an IM on a trainer. It will actually train your mental side of the game in the process. |
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Expert![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() chevy, You cannot simulate an IM run and if you did you would be wiped out and it would hurt your training. I have only done 2 IM races; first one with a marathon 7 weeks before with 4+ 20 mile runs and then the second one with a long run of 16. The result - I was 5 minutes slower on the second one because I got sick, not because I had better run fitness. Relax, push yourself just enough each week so you can recover and then push yourself again. As others have stated you want to get to T2 in good enough shape to jog out. Get yourself in the best physical condition you can. You will do great. |
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Extreme Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() OK folks Thanks for all of the advise. I am trying to read more about the technical side of the training and the people on this site never give me bad advise. I just want you all to know that I have more questions than answers at this point and it is probably JohnnyKay's fault. I cut my long run back to 12 miles this week. It is the same loop I run on Tuesdays, I just try to do it at a lower HR on Saturdays. It was 45 degrees today so I got in a 41 mile ride on a hilly route. I averaged 16.6 MPH today and looking back at my logs the best I ever did last year on this same course was 16.9 so I was very happy with my winter maintenace plan. The roads are in horrible shape in the northeast so I had to slow it down due to the amount of dirt and sand on the roads. Now for the questions: I am going to back off the long runs some. I will still keep them in the 12 - 15 mile range. I will increase the number of runs per week to 5. What should the other 4 sessions look like in terms of effort? Tempo runs? Strides? How many bike sessions and what should they look like in terms of effort? I have the on the road DVDs, Totally Time Trial and some other spinervals DVDs. I swam twice last week. One session was 100 lengths easy. The other was 20 lengths as a WU then 10 X 100s. Do I need to add in a 3rd swim? If so what should it be? Thanks for the help and encouragement. Kevin |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Different approaches will work for different people and if you want an idea then browse through the plans on this site - they are written by well respected coaches. Just to let you know what I am trying this year (on instructions by my coach) - but I say first that this is not my first IM (in which I just wanted to finish). Run is my weakness and my IM is in July and I can't see me doing much more than 2hr runs in forseeable future (they're a little less at the moment) BUT I need to get used to running on tired legs so my long runs are preceded by a bike ride (trainer - I'm also in NE) plus I do my long run the day after my long bike for the same reason. Just some ideas so you get a good workout without over-pounding on the pavement. I'd also say that I am really really really working on my bike this year so that I come off it a lot more fresh to deal with the IM run. Good luck |
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Not a Coach ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Sorry for being the source of all your questions.
For the bike, I think 3x/wk is a minimum to shoot for. If you are stuck on the trainer right now keep them shorter, but ride them hard. Intervals, long tempo, whatever. As the weather improves, start getting longer rides outside. The longer you ride, the closer to 'IM effort'. Ride harder on more intermediate distance rides. It's difficult to give you specific advice without knowing what kind of schedule you can or would like to carry out. As with running, the key remains consistency with a gradual buid of training load.
For swimming, I think it would be very helpful if you can do a 3rd swim. But, especially if you are only swimming 2x, I would not do a 100 length easy swim. All your swimming should be harder efforts. Intervals can range from 50s to 500s. Keep the rest between them short and keep the intensity as high as you can hold for the duration of the workout. Only when you get within the final 8 weeks or so before your IM would I start doing some longer, steady swimming. For now, stick with 'bang for the buck' intensity.
Again, the key is consistency. If anything I've suggested here would make it difficult for you to repeat week after week, then you need to figure out an adjustment. There is no magic plan that will get keep you running during the last hours of your IM. You need to build the best fitness that you can (within all the constraints that you have) and then pace yourself well on race day so that you get to T2 in good shape. Because of that, I would prioritize your swim & bike fitness over worrying about your running beyond getting consistent work done (i.e., all those suggestions above about strides and tempo and paces are far less important than just running easy 5x/wk for 30+ miles in total week after week). If you have extra time or extra energy, put it into riding/simmming more/harder. Then relax and enjoy the journey. But I am sure you will have even more questions now. |
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Extreme Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Thanks Johnny, I am OK with 30 MPW last fall I was up to 40 and handled it well. I will start to implement the more frequent runs aiming for 30 to 40 MPW. I already did my long slow swim today before I read your message. I can add a 3 rd swim with intervals without a problem. I have a bike question. When the weather breaks and I can get out for weekly long rides are they supposed to be done at zone 2? I have a hard time holding back on training rides, I always want to go out and hammer them. Is the strategy supposed to by 90 RPM in zone 2? Kevin |
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Not a Coach ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Here I will just tell you what I do. I rarely ride in z2. When I am riding outside consistently, my schedule typically has something like a 3hr ride on Sat and a 2hr ride on Sun. I ride these about as hard as I can manage (for the day and knowing what I have coming up on the schedule). After about a 20' warm-up, I start pushing harder. Some days I will ride them steadily at a higher effort. Many times I will do different kinds of intervals. Generally, rides of this length end up having me working, on average, as hard or harder than I would ride a HIM. I also usually do at least one ride per week on the trainer all year long. 60-90min of total ride time. Hard intervals. LT & VO2max-type efforts. Bang for the buck work. Even when I am training specifically for IM, I train a lot at HIM effort level for 4 and 5 hour rides. I will do a couple very long rides (and at least some longer segments in some of my other rides) where I mostly try to sit at IM effort and work on my pacing, staying aero, eating steadily, etc. I don't worry about where my cadence is while I am riding. |
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Coach ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() chevy57 - 2010-03-08 8:38 AM Thanks Johnny, I am OK with 30 MPW last fall I was up to 40 and handled it well. I will start to implement the more frequent runs aiming for 30 to 40 MPW. I already did my long slow swim today before I read your message. I can add a 3 rd swim with intervals without a problem. I have a bike question. When the weather breaks and I can get out for weekly long rides are they supposed to be done at zone 2? I have a hard time holding back on training rides, I always want to go out and hammer them. Is the strategy supposed to by 90 RPM in zone 2? Kevin Power is function of pedal speed (cadence) and pedal force (torque). To address only cadence is to just partially address your power demands hence it is incorrect for coaches/athletes to only talk about cadence or go as far as suggesting an ideal cadence since pedal speed/force will be influenced by: metabolic fitness, physiology (i.e. muscle fiber), gearing, crank lenght, terrain, etc. Anytime you pedal faster you are producing less torque on the pedal to sustain a given power output and viceversa, everytime you pedal slower you are producing a higher torque on the pedals to sustain a given power output. So which one os better? well it depends as each ridier will find their 'sweet spot' based on their gearing, crank lenght, physiology, riding distance, intensity, fitness, etc. but a sure simple way to identify your optimal cadence is to ride at the pedal speed that produces the lower RPE possible. i.e. if you ride at your zone 2 and 85rpm 'feels' easier than 90 then ride at 85. If 90 rpm feels easier than 85 or 95 then ride at 90. The more you practice this you'll identify what works for you based on all the factors I listed above. In terms of intensity depending on how you train and defined training levels (by HR, power or RPE) you can go at your training plan described plan and as JK said you can push the pace and see how you can handle it; IOW if you can managed a greater load by going harder but at the same time recovering to complete your next session and your next session and your next session. With biking, swimming and running you can always just do as much as you can handle within your own personal limits and goals. |