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Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run
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 2010-10-25 5:47 PM |
Champion  6503    NOVA - Ironic for an Endurance Athlete |  Subject: Steady State Run vs. Tempo RunSteady State Run vs. Tempo Run Can someone smarter than me explain how long each of these should last? According to the McMillan Calculator, there is about 1 m/m difference in pace for each. |
| 2010-10-25 5:51 PM in reply to: #3171481 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290  The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run IMHO |
| 2010-10-25 6:32 PM in reply to: #3171488 |
Champion 6503 NOVA - Ironic for an Endurance Athlete | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run |
| 2010-10-25 6:35 PM in reply to: #3171558 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run pga_mike - 2010-10-25 6:32 PM Looks like I am back to the Scout training plan. Mostly slow. Some faster. Unless you're following a specific plan, what else is there? So why do you want those terms defined? |
| 2010-10-25 6:47 PM in reply to: #3171481 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run Actually, there is a "classic" definition for a "tempo run"...this is the most succinct explanation I've seen that includes both the "history" of the term and acknowledges how it's come to be just tossed around with no real meaning. Anyhow, since you're getting these terms off the McMillan Calculator, have a look at this. |
| 2010-10-25 9:10 PM in reply to: #3171481 |
Expert 1394 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run pga_mike - 2010-10-25 6:47 PM Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run Can someone smarter than me explain how long each of these should last? According to the McMillan Calculator, there is about 1 m/m difference in pace for each. These are some of the terms that can mean the same thing or very different things depending who says them. If you are going by the way Mcmillan uses them. Tempo = about the pace that you can race at for 1hour. When using this type of run during training you should be shooting for going at that pace for 20-30min. A steady state is closer to what Daniels calls marathon pace. For Mcmillan it is a bit quicker than marathon pace. When using this pace you should be looking to go around an hour at the pace in training. Obv, depending on where you are in training amount of time at those paces could vary. It is quite common to see people going 15mi at Steady State pace in prep for a marathon. |
| 2010-10-26 8:22 AM in reply to: #3171481 |
Pro 4277 Parker, CO | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run I've run for a long time but have never been really big on the text book definitions. but I know what I would consider tempo, steady state, etc. and really, that's what you need to do unless you have a coach or plan that tells you otherwise (I've never been coached). |
| 2010-10-26 8:50 AM in reply to: #3172228 |
Expert 1394 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run rayd - 2010-10-26 9:22 AM I've run for a long time but have never been really big on the text book definitions. but I know what I would consider tempo, steady state, etc. and really, that's what you need to do unless you have a coach or plan that tells you otherwise (I've never been coached). Race pace for what? 20min at under 5k race pace is not going to happen. 20min at just under marathon race pace is rather slow for that duration. 20min at just under Half marathon race pace is not a bad effort, but seems to sort of be in no mans land as far as being beneficial. I know you say Z4, but that can be as confusing as the 2 terms in the OP because 1 persons Z1, Z2, Z3 ..........is another persons Z3, Z4, Z4a etc etc Also if someone does not use a heart rate monitor, Z4 becomes useless. Your 2nd sentence is exactly right IMO. Those terms are what you, the OP, or anybody else considers them to be, based on their training. |
| 2010-10-26 9:02 AM in reply to: #3172293 |
Pro 4277 Parker, CO | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run qrkid - 2010-10-26 7:50 AM rayd - 2010-10-26 9:22 AM I've run for a long time but have never been really big on the text book definitions. but I know what I would consider tempo, steady state, etc. and really, that's what you need to do unless you have a coach or plan that tells you otherwise (I've never been coached). Race pace for what? 20min at under 5k race pace is not going to happen. 20min at just under marathon race pace is rather slow for that duration. 20min at just under Half marathon race pace is not a bad effort, but seems to sort of be in no mans land as far as being beneficial. I know you say Z4, but that can be as confusing as the 2 terms in the OP because 1 persons Z1, Z2, Z3 ..........is another persons Z3, Z4, Z4a etc etc Also if someone does not use a heart rate monitor, Z4 becomes useless. Your 2nd sentence is exactly right IMO. Those terms are what you, the OP, or anybody else considers them to be, based on their training. yea, that's why I said "what I would consider". Anyway, naturally 20-minutes is not going to help if you are training for a 1/2 marathon. I was basing that on 5/10K. And yes i agree if someone does not use a HRM the zones are not going to help. But I am a HRM guy...not good with training on RPE. I assume the OP is not coached and that's why he is asking about tempo and SS. I stated as simply as I can what I consider them to be. Running is not complicated. |
| 2010-10-26 9:08 AM in reply to: #3172293 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run qrkid - 2010-10-26 10:50 AM 20min at just under Half marathon race pace is not a bad effort, but seems to sort of be in no mans land as far as being beneficial. Curious as to why you believe that training around half marathon pace would not be beneficial. Shane |
| 2010-10-26 9:19 AM in reply to: #3172293 |
| Lafayette, CO | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run qrkid - 2010-10-26 7:50 AM rayd - 2010-10-26 9:22 AM I've run for a long time but have never been really big on the text book definitions. but I know what I would consider tempo, steady state, etc. and really, that's what you need to do unless you have a coach or plan that tells you otherwise (I've never been coached). Race pace for what? 20min at under 5k race pace is not going to happen. 20min at just under marathon race pace is rather slow for that duration. 20min at just under Half marathon race pace is not a bad effort, but seems to sort of be in no mans land as far as being beneficial. I know you say Z4, but that can be as confusing as the 2 terms in the OP because 1 persons Z1, Z2, Z3 ..........is another persons Z3, Z4, Z4a etc etc Also if someone does not use a heart rate monitor, Z4 becomes useless. Your 2nd sentence is exactly right IMO. Those terms are what you, the OP, or anybody else considers them to be, based on their training. But if you know your zones then it doesn't really matter what other people's zones are right? I mean sure my pace at Z4 is going to be way slower than a lot of people's but I'm still working at the proper pacing for a given day for me. |
| 2010-10-26 9:22 AM in reply to: #3172341 |
Expert 1394 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run gsmacleod - 2010-10-26 10:08 AM qrkid - 2010-10-26 10:50 AM 20min at just under Half marathon race pace is not a bad effort, but seems to sort of be in no mans land as far as being beneficial. Curious as to why you believe that training around half marathon pace would not be beneficial. Shane The way I wrote that is a little misleading. It is not beneficial from the point of running a 20min Tempo/steady state/LT type of run. Running just below HM pace is very beneficial aerobically speaking and is great for higher end aerobic effort, but if you plan on running a a 20min tempo/LT type effort that will not do it, training at that pace you are not really getting very close to your Lactate Threshold at all. So yes in general terms, running at that pace is beneficial and I would and do utilize that type of running. but there are more efficient ways to go about doing a tempo/LT run. |
| 2010-10-26 9:26 AM in reply to: #3172378 |
Expert 1394 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run COSkiGirl - 2010-10-26 10:19 AM qrkid - 2010-10-26 7:50 AM rayd - 2010-10-26 9:22 AM I've run for a long time but have never been really big on the text book definitions. but I know what I would consider tempo, steady state, etc. and really, that's what you need to do unless you have a coach or plan that tells you otherwise (I've never been coached). Race pace for what? 20min at under 5k race pace is not going to happen. 20min at just under marathon race pace is rather slow for that duration. 20min at just under Half marathon race pace is not a bad effort, but seems to sort of be in no mans land as far as being beneficial. I know you say Z4, but that can be as confusing as the 2 terms in the OP because 1 persons Z1, Z2, Z3 ..........is another persons Z3, Z4, Z4a etc etc Also if someone does not use a heart rate monitor, Z4 becomes useless. Your 2nd sentence is exactly right IMO. Those terms are what you, the OP, or anybody else considers them to be, based on their training. But if you know your zones then it doesn't really matter what other people's zones are right? I mean sure my pace at Z4 is going to be way slower than a lot of people's but I'm still working at the proper pacing for a given day for me. I am not referring to your pace in Z4 compared to my pace in Z4. Just like the words Steady State, Tempo, and Lactate threshold some people have a different definition of what Z4 actually is. So when I say your Z3, someone might define that intensity as Z2 in their interpretation of zone training. |
| 2010-10-26 9:30 AM in reply to: #3172386 |
Pro 4277 Parker, CO | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run qrkid - 2010-10-26 8:22 AM gsmacleod - 2010-10-26 10:08 AM qrkid - 2010-10-26 10:50 AM 20min at just under Half marathon race pace is not a bad effort, but seems to sort of be in no mans land as far as being beneficial. Curious as to why you believe that training around half marathon pace would not be beneficial. Shane The way I wrote that is a little misleading. It is not beneficial from the point of running a 20min Tempo/steady state/LT type of run. Running just below HM pace is very beneficial aerobically speaking and is great for higher end aerobic effort, but if you plan on running a a 20min tempo/LT type effort that will not do it, training at that pace you are not really getting very close to your Lactate Threshold at all. So yes in general terms, running at that pace is beneficial and I would and do utilize that type of running. but there are more efficient ways to go about doing a tempo/LT run. not trying to split hairs here but I will anyway. My Z4 will get me well into threshold. I really can't remember which formula I am using but I've been using it for about 3-years. Z4 for me is 95-102% of LT. |
| 2010-10-26 9:32 AM in reply to: #3172398 |
| Lafayette, CO | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run qrkid - 2010-10-26 8:26 AM COSkiGirl - 2010-10-26 10:19 AM qrkid - 2010-10-26 7:50 AM rayd - 2010-10-26 9:22 AM I've run for a long time but have never been really big on the text book definitions. but I know what I would consider tempo, steady state, etc. and really, that's what you need to do unless you have a coach or plan that tells you otherwise (I've never been coached). Race pace for what? 20min at under 5k race pace is not going to happen. 20min at just under marathon race pace is rather slow for that duration. 20min at just under Half marathon race pace is not a bad effort, but seems to sort of be in no mans land as far as being beneficial. I know you say Z4, but that can be as confusing as the 2 terms in the OP because 1 persons Z1, Z2, Z3 ..........is another persons Z3, Z4, Z4a etc etc Also if someone does not use a heart rate monitor, Z4 becomes useless. Your 2nd sentence is exactly right IMO. Those terms are what you, the OP, or anybody else considers them to be, based on their training. But if you know your zones then it doesn't really matter what other people's zones are right? I mean sure my pace at Z4 is going to be way slower than a lot of people's but I'm still working at the proper pacing for a given day for me. I am not referring to your pace in Z4 compared to my pace in Z4. Just like the words Steady State, Tempo, and Lactate threshold some people have a different definition of what Z4 actually is. So when I say your Z3, someone might define that intensity as Z2 in their interpretation of zone training. I still don't understand. If you know your paces from an LT test and a proper zone calculator your intensity is no longer subjective as it's governed by your HR. |
| 2010-10-26 9:41 AM in reply to: #3172416 |
Expert 1394 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run rayd - 2010-10-26 10:30 AM qrkid - 2010-10-26 8:22 AM gsmacleod - 2010-10-26 10:08 AM qrkid - 2010-10-26 10:50 AM 20min at just under Half marathon race pace is not a bad effort, but seems to sort of be in no mans land as far as being beneficial. Curious as to why you believe that training around half marathon pace would not be beneficial. Shane The way I wrote that is a little misleading. It is not beneficial from the point of running a 20min Tempo/steady state/LT type of run. Running just below HM pace is very beneficial aerobically speaking and is great for higher end aerobic effort, but if you plan on running a a 20min tempo/LT type effort that will not do it, training at that pace you are not really getting very close to your Lactate Threshold at all. So yes in general terms, running at that pace is beneficial and I would and do utilize that type of running. but there are more efficient ways to go about doing a tempo/LT run. not trying to split hairs here but I will anyway. My Z4 will get me well into threshold. I really can't remember which formula I am using but I've been using it for about 3-years. Z4 for me is 95-102% of LT. Rayd. I do not doubt you on that. My response to you about what race pace you do that 20min at is the question. You say you do 20min at just under 5k pace. I personally could not, and I don't think anybody can realistically run for 20min at 5k pace or a smidge quicker. If you are able to do that, then your 5k pace is in all liklihood incorrect. I would agree that a tempo run is around 20min at what you describe in your last post as your Z4, but I would argue that your Z4 is not your 5k race pace. Then the part of my reply to GSmacleod that you copied was in reference to Half marathon pace running. I again would seriously doubt that you could run a half marathon in Z4. |
| 2010-10-26 9:42 AM in reply to: #3171481 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run Here, let's make this all real simple, shall we? Steady State = just that. You maintain the same effort throughout the run. Tempo = a run that represents a medium-level effort, that is built to over some period of time or distance. McMillan (and others) consider the "Steady State" run to be something used for longer distances, and therefore the pace should be slower than a tempo run. I generally disagree with that assessment. Steady state is how most runs should be. I also don't think you can or should limit a tempo run strictly on its duration. 20 minutes at a given effort make be good for certain distances, but I would want longer ones for marathon training. Most people think LSD stands for Long Slow Distance; it doesn't. It's Long STEADY Distance. In other words, you should be running long runs at or higher than the same effort level as your regular everyday easy runs. Maintain a steady effort over the run. |
| 2010-10-26 9:45 AM in reply to: #3172386 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run qrkid - 2010-10-26 11:22 AM The way I wrote that is a little misleading. It is not beneficial from the point of running a 20min Tempo/steady state/LT type of run. Running just below HM pace is very beneficial aerobically speaking and is great for higher end aerobic effort, but if you plan on running a a 20min tempo/LT type effort that will not do it, training at that pace you are not really getting very close to your Lactate Threshold at all. So yes in general terms, running at that pace is beneficial and I would and do utilize that type of running. but there are more efficient ways to go about doing a tempo/LT run. May I suggest: http://www.amazon.com/Daniels-Running-Formula-Jack/dp/0880117354 Shane |
| 2010-10-26 9:53 AM in reply to: #3172421 |
Expert 1394 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run COSkiGirl - 2010-10-26 10:32 AM qrkid - 2010-10-26 8:26 AM COSkiGirl - 2010-10-26 10:19 AM qrkid - 2010-10-26 7:50 AM rayd - 2010-10-26 9:22 AM
It is the zones that are different to different people. You might use a calculator that says one thing and I might use a different one. If you read the post from Rayd just above yours. Rayds defines his Z4 as 95%-102% of his lactate threshold. Some people and coaches (person B) may define their Z4 as 85%-95% of LT. I personally believe that a tempo run should be around 20min running at Rayd's Z4, but if person B runs 20min @ their Z4 then they are are not training the same system as Rayd would be, so they would in all liklihood have to run 20min at what they might call Z4a or Z5. Not sure if I got what I am trying to say across any more clearly, but hopefully that explains what I am trying to say to you. |
| 2010-10-26 10:05 AM in reply to: #3172450 |
Pro 4277 Parker, CO | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run qrkid - 2010-10-26 8:41 AM rayd - 2010-10-26 10:30 AM qrkid - 2010-10-26 8:22 AM gsmacleod - 2010-10-26 10:08 AM qrkid - 2010-10-26 10:50 AM 20min at just under Half marathon race pace is not a bad effort, but seems to sort of be in no mans land as far as being beneficial. Curious as to why you believe that training around half marathon pace would not be beneficial. Shane The way I wrote that is a little misleading. It is not beneficial from the point of running a 20min Tempo/steady state/LT type of run. Running just below HM pace is very beneficial aerobically speaking and is great for higher end aerobic effort, but if you plan on running a a 20min tempo/LT type effort that will not do it, training at that pace you are not really getting very close to your Lactate Threshold at all. So yes in general terms, running at that pace is beneficial and I would and do utilize that type of running. but there are more efficient ways to go about doing a tempo/LT run. not trying to split hairs here but I will anyway. My Z4 will get me well into threshold. I really can't remember which formula I am using but I've been using it for about 3-years. Z4 for me is 95-102% of LT. Rayd. I do not doubt you on that. My response to you about what race pace you do that 20min at is the question. You say you do 20min at just under 5k pace. I personally could not, and I don't think anybody can realistically run for 20min at 5k pace or a smidge quicker. If you are able to do that, then your 5k pace is in all liklihood incorrect. I would agree that a tempo run is around 20min at what you describe in your last post as your Z4, but I would argue that your Z4 is not your 5k race pace. Then the part of my reply to GSmacleod that you copied was in reference to Half marathon pace running. I again would seriously doubt that you could run a half marathon in Z4. Well, I have not run a stand-alone 5K in well over a year but my last 5K at a tri was just over 7-minute miles. This past Saturday I ran a tempo run with where I covered 3-miles in 21-minutes. So I think I can get pretty close in running 20-minutes at 5k pace. My HR for the tempo jumed into Z5 but avg high Z4. And you are right, currently I could not run a 1/2 marathon at Z4 but I am not training for that distance. My Z4 is 143-153. Trained I can hold lower Z4 for a 1/2 marathon. Anything longer I'm in the lower zones. As you commented to COskigirl, the HR zones are specific for each individual. The important thing is once a persone determines their zones that they stick with them and base their training consistently on the zones. And yes, before anyone else corrects me, your zones will change based on age and fitness level. you need to test your LT at least once a year. |
| 2010-10-26 10:16 AM in reply to: #3172469 |
Expert 1394 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run gsmacleod - 2010-10-26 10:45 AM qrkid - 2010-10-26 11:22 AM The way I wrote that is a little misleading. It is not beneficial from the point of running a 20min Tempo/steady state/LT type of run. Running just below HM pace is very beneficial aerobically speaking and is great for higher end aerobic effort, but if you plan on running a a 20min tempo/LT type effort that will not do it, training at that pace you are not really getting very close to your Lactate Threshold at all. So yes in general terms, running at that pace is beneficial and I would and do utilize that type of running. but there are more efficient ways to go about doing a tempo/LT run. May I suggest: http://www.amazon.com/Daniels-Running-Formula-Jack/dp/0880117354 Shane Shane is there anything in particular that you think I should read in your suggested link? Go back to my very 1st post to the OP and see what I said about tempo and Steady state. Now here are a couple of quote's and you tell me where they comes from. "A tempo run is nothing more than a steady 20min run at T-pace. Subjectively, the intensity of effort associated with T-pace running is comfortably hard. The effort should be one that you could maintain for about 1 hour in a race." "Possibly the biggest challenge in doing tempo runsis to hold the proper pace and to resist making the tempo run into a time trial. Remember, the proper pace is more beneficial than a faster (or a slower) one." Now going back to you questioning what I said about HM pace running. Unless you can run a half marathon in ~60min that would make running at HM pace during a tempo run not nearly as beneficial. Correct? |
| 2010-10-26 11:25 AM in reply to: #3172594 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run qrkid - 2010-10-26 12:16 PM Shane is there anything in particular that you think I should read in your suggested link? Go back to my very 1st post to the OP and see what I said about tempo and Steady state. Now here are a couple of quote's and you tell me where they comes from. "A tempo run is nothing more than a steady 20min run at T-pace. Subjectively, the intensity of effort associated with T-pace running is comfortably hard. The effort should be one that you could maintain for about 1 hour in a race." "Possibly the biggest challenge in doing tempo runsis to hold the proper pace and to resist making the tempo run into a time trial. Remember, the proper pace is more beneficial than a faster (or a slower) one." If you look at the VDot tables, you will see that predicted half marathon pace and T pace are typically quite similar (i.e. for a VDot of 40, T pace is 8:12/mile and HM pace is 8:24/mile and for a VDot of 60, T pace is 5:54/mile and HM pace is 5:57/mile). Therefore, I believe statements like these are misleading: qrkid - 2010-10-26 10:50 AM 20min at just under Half marathon race pace is not a bad effort, but seems to sort of be in no mans land as far as being beneficial. qrkid - 2010-10-26 11:22 AM The way I wrote that is a little misleading. It is not beneficial from the point of running a 20min Tempo/steady state/LT type of run. Running just below HM pace is very beneficial aerobically speaking and is great for higher end aerobic effort, but if you plan on running a a 20min tempo/LT type effort that will not do it, training at that pace you are not really getting very close to your Lactate Threshold at all. So yes in general terms, running at that pace is beneficial and I would and do utilize that type of running. but there are more efficient ways to go about doing a tempo/LT run. Now going back to you questioning what I said about HM pace running. Unless you can run a half marathon in ~60min that would make running at HM pace during a tempo run not nearly as beneficial. Correct? While your half marathon pace will be slightly slower than threshold pace, they are not so dramtically different that training at half marathon pace is going to be not nearly as beneficial. For most athletes, the difference would be well within the range of paces that would be expected based on rest, recovery, hydration, fueling, time of day, etc. Shane |
| 2010-10-26 11:31 AM in reply to: #3172450 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run qrkid - 2010-10-26 11:41 AM I again would seriously doubt that you could run a half marathon in Z4. Assuming that you are thinking of the typically used HR zones, there is no reason why a half marathon could not be run by most athletes in Z4. The top of zone 4 is threshold and exercising slightly below threshold will be possible for longer than 60 minutes. Shane |
| 2010-10-26 11:49 AM in reply to: #3172844 |
Expert 1394 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run Shane I did not quote your last post, because these posts are getting so long. The vdots do have them pretty close. There is just 10-20sec diff bewteen those paces. So let me ask you this. Even at 13sec/mile difference bewteen 1 hour pace and HM pace (which in my experience, and I have done a fair bit of running, can be quite a big difference in RPE. If the diff is not that great, why not just race 13sec/mile quicker?) What would you do a 20min tempo/SS/LT run at? If your answer is @ HM pace, why? Note this whole back and forth started when you asked why I thought running HM pace was not beneficial and my reply to you was that it is beneficial, but not as beneficial as running at a 1 hour pace. |
| 2010-10-26 12:02 PM in reply to: #3172859 |
Expert 1394 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: Steady State Run vs. Tempo Run gsmacleod - 2010-10-26 12:31 PM qrkid - 2010-10-26 11:41 AM I again would seriously doubt that you could run a half marathon in Z4. Assuming that you are thinking of the typically used HR zones, there is no reason why a half marathon could not be run by most athletes in Z4. The top of zone 4 is threshold and exercising slightly below threshold will be possible for longer than 60 minutes. Shane Typically a HM would be running at about 95% of Threshold in well trained athletes (not elites but well trained), so yes if Z4 is consideered to be 95-102% then you are correct it will just be in Z4. Now doing that for a HM is a little longer than 60min. Using the case that you quoted me from, you would then be saying that he could stay in Z4 for at least 100min. Again, I doubt, and as he confirmed, he could do a HM in Z4. Me is starting to think that this is becoming a bit of a match, so I will tell you what. Why don't we each have our opinion (and I am guessing we in all liklihood don't even really disagree with one another in general) and if anyone who might still be reading feels like you are or I are right then they can take whatever they want from out little back and forth. |
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