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How much faster?
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 2009-06-22 12:35 PM |
Expert  2555    Colorado Springs, Colorado |  Subject: How much faster?I did my first tri in a couple years and I noticed that all the fast people now seem to be using aero helmets and/or disc wheels/race wheels. I've always felt the way to be fast was through solid training, but now it seems to even remotely competitive it may be necessary to get some goodies. Granted I haven't been biking as much as I should, but my speed in the sprint tri was about 21. My current bike is a QR Kilo with stock wheels and I use a standard bike helmet. I'm not looking to spend a huge amount, but how much faster would simply adding an aero helmet and a rear disc cover be? Would that be worth an additional 2-3 MPH? |
| 2009-06-22 12:38 PM in reply to: #2234229 |
Sneaky Slow 8694   Herndon, VA, | Subject: RE: How much faster? Donskiman - 2009-06-22 1:35 PM I did my first tri in a couple years and I noticed that all the fast people now seem to be using aero helmets and/or disc wheels/race wheels. I've always felt the way to be fast was through solid training, but now it seems to even remotely competitive it may be necessary to get some goodies. Granted I haven't been biking as much as I should, but my speed in the sprint tri was about 21. My current bike is a QR Kilo with stock wheels and I use a standard bike helmet. I'm not looking to spend a huge amount, but how much faster would simply adding an aero helmet and a rear disc cover be? Would that be worth an additional 2-3 MPH? It would not be anywhere close to 2-3 MPH. There is an article here on BT that does an analysis of the aero benefit from upgraded wheels. You'll see that there's not all that much benefit, at least from this guy's analysis. Helmet... I don't know how much the gain is, but if it was even 0.25 MPH, I'd be really surprised. And for some people, like JeepFleeb, an aero helmet is actually disadvantageous for them. |
| 2009-06-22 1:45 PM in reply to: #2234229 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: How much faster? Yeah, you'll be faster with a cover & aero helmet. But nowhere near 2-3mph. |
| 2009-06-22 1:52 PM in reply to: #2234229 |
Veteran 298 Rockwall, Texas | Subject: RE: How much faster? there have been discussions about all this on here. i think one of them concluded that an aero helmet is the most aero-bang for your buck if your position allows it to be aero. tho, i dont think a wheel cover was taken into consideration |
| 2009-06-22 1:55 PM in reply to: #2234229 |
Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: How much faster? Donskiman - 2009-06-22 10:35 AM I did my first tri in a couple years and I noticed that all the fast people now seem to be using aero helmets and/or disc wheels/race wheels. I've always felt the way to be fast was through solid training, but now it seems to even remotely competitive it may be necessary to get some goodies. Granted I haven't been biking as much as I should, but my speed in the sprint tri was about 21. My current bike is a QR Kilo with stock wheels and I use a standard bike helmet. I'm not looking to spend a huge amount, but how much faster would simply adding an aero helmet and a rear disc cover be? Would that be worth an additional 2-3 MPH? It CAN be worth up to around 3 minutes in a typical 40k TT. From the April 2008 Tri Mag: 100 representing the best value in terms of time saved per dollar spent Clothing 100 Tires 80 Aero Helmet 46 Training Tools (HR Monitor, coaching, power meter, etc.) 18 Positioning 16 Fork 14 Aerobars 9 Wheels (front and rear) 7 Frame and Frok 7 Frame 6 Ceramic Bearings 5 John |
| 2009-06-22 1:58 PM in reply to: #2234229 |
Pro 4277 Parker, CO | Subject: RE: How much faster? I can't tell you how much faster it would make a rider because I don't have race wheels or aero helment. I ride my road bike with clip-on aerobars and pretty standard Mavic wheels. It may make people somewhat faster though or else why would they invest the money? Personally, it would not be worth it to me. I'm an older guy and can usually avg 21 - 23 in a sprint...that's passing guys that may have race wheels and an aero helmet. I get some satisfaction that I have not invested several grand in my bike and equipment and can still hang or pass many guys that have. Edited by rayd 2009-06-22 1:59 PM |
| 2009-06-22 2:00 PM in reply to: #2234530 |
Sneaky Slow 8694 Herndon, VA, | Subject: RE: How much faster? tkd.teacher - 2009-06-22 2:55 PM From the April 2008 Tri Mag: 100 representing the best value in terms of time saved per dollar spent Clothing 100 Tires 80 Aero Helmet 46 Training Tools (HR Monitor, coaching, power meter, etc.) 18 Positioning 16 Fork 14 Aerobars 9 Wheels (front and rear) 7 Frame and Frok 7 Frame 6 Ceramic Bearings 5 John Tires? What kind of upgrade are they talking about with tires? |
| 2009-06-22 2:04 PM in reply to: #2234545 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: How much faster? newleaf - 2009-06-22 4:00 PM Tires? What kind of upgrade are they talking about with tires? More than likely from a high Crr tire/tube combo (like Gatorskins with butyl tubes) to a low Crr tire/tube combo (like ProRace2's with latex tubes). Shane |
| 2009-06-22 2:07 PM in reply to: #2234555 |
Sneaky Slow 8694 Herndon, VA, | Subject: RE: How much faster? gsmacleod - 2009-06-22 3:04 PM newleaf - 2009-06-22 4:00 PM Tires? What kind of upgrade are they talking about with tires? More than likely from a high Crr tire/tube combo (like Gatorskins with butyl tubes) to a low Crr tire/tube combo (like ProRace2's with latex tubes). Shane ah. darnit. already have ProRace3s. Was hoping for a quick and dirty upgrade.  |
| 2009-06-22 2:09 PM in reply to: #2234561 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: How much faster? newleaf - 2009-06-22 4:07 PM ah. darnit. already have ProRace3s. Was hoping for a quick and dirty upgrade. Latex tubes... Shane |
| 2009-06-22 2:10 PM in reply to: #2234240 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: How much faster? newleaf - 2009-06-22 1:38 PM There is an article here on BT that does an analysis of the aero benefit from upgraded wheels. You'll see that there's not all that much benefit, at least from this guy's analysis. The article is bogus and conjecture. Especially when you have real world tests from other sources (magazines, manufacturers and cycling news outlets) that have actual numbers/splits that show completely different results. As to the OP? With all things being equal (power to weight and such), the person with a proper fit that can hold their position and all the aero goodies will beat the person without them every time. So if the rest of the competition has them and you are only as strong as them, then they will have the advantage. Think of it as the wetsuit debate. If you are allowed to use them, and it makes you faster, then why not? Of course, the engine makes the biggest difference. But when the engines are the same, aero covers the minutia that wins races. |
| 2009-06-22 2:10 PM in reply to: #2234536 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: How much faster? rayd - 2009-06-22 1:58 PM I can't tell you how much faster it would make a rider because I don't have race wheels or aero helment. I ride my road bike with clip-on aerobars and pretty standard Mavic wheels. It may make people somewhat faster though or else why would they invest the money? Personally, it would not be worth it to me. I'm an older guy and can usually avg 21 - 23 in a sprint...that's passing guys that may have race wheels and an aero helmet. I get some satisfaction that I have not invested several grand in my bike and equipment and can still hang or pass many guys that have. The issue isn't that you can pass guys who do, but, of course, will you be faster with than without. I pass people with race wheels, as well as those younger than me, those lighter than me, and those who train more than me. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be faster if I were younger, lighter, and trained more. |
| 2009-06-22 2:11 PM in reply to: #2234561 |
Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: How much faster? newleaf - 2009-06-22 12:07 PM gsmacleod - 2009-06-22 3:04 PM newleaf - 2009-06-22 4:00 PM Tires? What kind of upgrade are they talking about with tires? More than likely from a high Crr tire/tube combo (like Gatorskins with butyl tubes) to a low Crr tire/tube combo (like ProRace2's with latex tubes). Shane ah. darnit. already have ProRace3s. Was hoping for a quick and dirty upgrade. AFM_tire_testing_rev8.pdf (application/pdf Object) Pro 3 race are on the second page  There's a whole world above you.John |
 2009-06-22 2:11 PM in reply to: #2234571 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-06-22 2:13 PM in reply to: #2234576 |
| Sneaky Slow 8694 Herndon, VA, | Subject: RE: How much faster? Daremo - 2009-06-22 3:10 PM newleaf - 2009-06-22 1:38 PM There is an article here on BT that does an analysis of the aero benefit from upgraded wheels. You'll see that there's not all that much benefit, at least from this guy's analysis. The article is bogus and conjecture. Especially when you have real world tests from other sources (magazines, manufacturers and cycling news outlets) that have actual numbers/splits that show completely different results. As to the OP? With all things being equal (power to weight and such), the person with a proper fit that can hold their position and all the aero goodies will beat the person without them every time. So if the rest of the competition has them and you are only as strong as them, then they will have the advantage. Think of it as the wetsuit debate. If you are allowed to use them, and it makes you faster, then why not? Of course, the engine makes the biggest difference. But when the engines are the same, aero covers the minutia that wins races. It would be helpful, then, to post them, the non-bogus articles. I'd be happy to see them, as I've not had much luck finding that kind of data... I probably just don't know where to look.I think a big hesitation with a lot of folks, with aero wheels, is the cost/benefit. There is a high cost, with an unknown benefit. Not really comparable to a wetsuit, which has a much lower cost, with a much higher benefit in terms of time for most of the people here. |
| 2009-06-22 2:18 PM in reply to: #2234229 |
| Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: How much faster? My current race setup is a tribike with 50mm front, disc cover on the back, high quality tubular tires and aero helmet. The reason why I have chosen to go with the aero goodies (besides being able to afford them) was that I am a stronger swimmer and runner. My thinking was that these items would allow me to lower resistance (air or rolling) while I continue to work on the engine. Shane |
| 2009-06-22 2:20 PM in reply to: #2234229 |
| Expert 2555 Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: How much faster? Thanks for the replies. Based on that article it looks like I may have been able to go about a minute faster in a sprint race. That would have moved me up one spot. Not exactly a huge ROI. I think I'll just stick with training more. BTW, prior to using the QR in this race, all my previous races were done on an old steel Bianchi road bike with stock rims and clipon aerobars. I can't say I noticed much improvement on a lighter, more aero bike. But that may be due to not getting in enough training so far this year. It just seemed odd that so many people are investing in all this expensive equipment to go a minute faster. Perhaps if I actually train enough to get close to maxing out my potential I'll revisit the possibility of spending money, but until then I don't see the point. |
| 2009-06-22 2:25 PM in reply to: #2234229 |
| Master 2355 Houston, TX | Subject: RE: How much faster? I use them just because everyone else is, to be honest. I've never felt like I've got more than 30s out of all the crap. If anything.. working on a good fit is where I saw some gains. |
| 2009-06-22 2:25 PM in reply to: #2234229 |
| Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: How much faster? Here's one, there are others: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/how-aero-is-aero 10 watts for "free" is huge over any distance (wheels). |
| 2009-06-22 2:26 PM in reply to: #2234587 |
| Sneaky Slow 8694 Herndon, VA, | Subject: RE: How much faster? tkd.teacher - 2009-06-22 3:11 PM newleaf - 2009-06-22 12:07 PM gsmacleod - 2009-06-22 3:04 PM newleaf - 2009-06-22 4:00 PM Tires? What kind of upgrade are they talking about with tires? More than likely from a high Crr tire/tube combo (like Gatorskins with butyl tubes) to a low Crr tire/tube combo (like ProRace2's with latex tubes). Shane ah. darnit. already have ProRace3s. Was hoping for a quick and dirty upgrade. AFM_tire_testing_rev8.pdf (application/pdf Object) Pro 3 race are on the second page There's a whole world above you.John Wow, who knew. So this is saying each tire could put out another 4-5 watts, according to these tests, just by upgrading the tire? Thanks for posting... |
| 2009-06-22 2:27 PM in reply to: #2234646 |
| Sneaky Slow 8694 Herndon, VA, | Subject: RE: How much faster? Daremo - 2009-06-22 3:25 PM Here's one, there are others: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/how-aero-is-aero 10 watts for "free" is huge over any distance (wheels). cool, thanks. |
| 2009-06-22 2:28 PM in reply to: #2234589 |
| Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: How much faster? PennState - 2009-06-22 4:11 PM Unless you are doing an IM and care about the amount of air that escapes I assume based on the that you are joking but as I have had this discussion with different athletes before I will address this as though you are serious.I have tested both my clinchers and tubulars with latex tubes and the bleed rate seems to be around 5-10psi/12 hours. So, as long as an athlete tops up the pressure on race morning, it shouldn't be an issue. Of course, this is a test you can do on your own to determine whether or not you think it is going to be an issue for you. However (if running clinchers) I would carry a butyl spare tube as CO2 bleeds much faster than your normal N2/O2 combo. Shane |
| 2009-06-22 2:31 PM in reply to: #2234654 |
| Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: How much faster? newleaf - 2009-06-22 4:26 PM Wow, who knew. So this is saying each tire could put out another 4-5 watts, according to these tests, just by upgrading the tire? Thanks for posting...Not that each tire could put out another 4-5 watts but that another 4-5 watts could go into overcoming aerodynamic drag as opposed to rolling resistance. Shane |
| 2009-06-22 2:31 PM in reply to: #2234668 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-06-22 2:32 PM in reply to: #2234589 |
| Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: How much faster? PennState - 2009-06-22 3:11 PM gsmacleod - 2009-06-22 3:09 PM newleaf - 2009-06-22 4:07 PM ah. darnit. already have ProRace3s. Was hoping for a quick and dirty upgrade. Latex tubes... Shane Unless you are doing an IM and care about the amount of air that escapes It's not that much. Add (just) a few extra psi in the morning if it's a concern. But carry a butyl spare. |
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