Tri bike stigma in groups?

Even out of the aero position you'll probably find that you aren't as manueverable. If you are aero, you aren't on the brakes. If you are on the horns, you aren't near the shifters. I ride big groups every Tuesday and only ever take my road bike. There are several who ride tri bikes (some of my good friends and training partners do) but I never would myself. It gets sketchy sometimes as is.

The above answers are correct.  If in Aero, you're too far from your brakes, on the hoods, you can't shift quickly.

But the larger problem is that triathletes, in general, are horrible bike handlers.  People who ride in groups are use to riding inches, not feet, from each other.  Most triathletes are not comfortable being this close and don't have the bike handling skills to properly do it.  Think of a race when you pass someone or they pass you.  How much room did they give you or did you give them?  Probably a lot. 

I pass within inches and don't have a problem with it.  Most triathletes would freak out.  If you show up to a group ride with a tribike, stay towards the back until you get the feel for the dynamics of the group.  And for all that's holy, DO NOT get in your Aerobars while in a pace line.

Roadies hate getting dropped by triathletes

1. Perception that brakes are too far to safely access while on aerobars. At least that's the main argument all roadies tend to use, even though this is a non-issue if you stay off the aerobars and on your horns where the brakes are.2. As stated above, roadies take pride in riding as close to each other as possible, even bumping regularly as no big deal. I find that most roadies I ride with will even intentionally pack themselves in as tightly as possible - likely to practice bike handling for big criterium races which can get crazy-packed in the final sprints. trifolks tend to leave space.3. And yes, it's a very, very real truth that roadies HATE getting dropped by triathletes. Especially since a lot of triathletes are very strong cyclists. This might actually be the main reason that roadies hate riding with triathletes, but they'll always blame it on #1 above.

I ride in a group of roadies most of the time.  I was concerned about exactly this when I got my TT bike.  In reality I have been accepted just like I was on any other bike and so have 2 others who also ride TT bikes in this group. 

I suspect this group is a little more forgiving than others might be, but it has not been an issue for me at all.

Michael

I think a lot of it boils down to your familiarity with the group and the ride.  If you are a regular, the group will be pretty knowledgable of your bike handling skills, whether or not you will be foolish and in aero position at inappropriate times etc.  Without a doubt, bike handling skills on a TT/tri bike are not as keen.  Some types of rides it will not matter, others it will.  Tuesdays and Saturdays are fast and furious rides for the group I frequent.  You will not find many TT bikes on those days.  The rest of the week is a different story.

The roadie vs tri thing is more or less a perception of dedication to single sport or multi sport and that generally the single sport athlete is more committed and better at their sport - not always true.  There are butts in all sports, but I will say there seems to be a slightly higher proportion of cyclists who think they are the bomb relative to athletes of the other two disciplines. 

Maybe where you ride but the roadies around here can ride pretty much any triathlete I know off their wheel whenever they want.

Shane

Yeah, around here there are roadies, and then there are road racers. When I ride with the roadies, I could pull full time if I wanted to. When I ride with the racers I'm hanging on for dear life.

The aero position is part of it and anyone who has ever been unlucky enough to be in a group within someone who drops into the aero position can tell you that this leads to some very sketchy riding.

Also, as mentioned, triathletes are infamous for poor bike handling and while not true for every triathlete, there are enough that are poor handlers to cause roadies to pause when a unknown rider on a tribike shows up for a group ride.  On top of this, your typical triathlete is in better shape than a novice roadie so despite not having the greatest bike handling, they can often ride reasonably well so instead of spending the entire ride at the back of the group trying to hang on and learning how group riding works, they are in and at the front of the group.

In addition, many triathletes have the attitude that they need to do their training session for the day so instead of following the dynamics of the group (i.e. today we are riding at 38km/h except for the city limit sprint, take 30 second to 1 minute pulls) they will sit at the front for extended periods of time, crank up/fall off the pace when on the front, etc.

Finally, the geometry on a tribike is different and not just with the seat tube angle.  The head tube is at a different angle, the rake and trail are different, the wheelbase can be different, the chainstay length will be different.  All these elements lead to a bike that goes fast in a straight line but will not be as responsive when required in a group.

Shane

9/10 of the "roadies" that I ride with when I do a group ride (other than my tri group) could drop just about any triathlete around like a bad habit. There are a few really strong triathletes that can hang, but for the most part the roadies own it.

John

^^This.

Coming from a road racing background, I definitely agree that group rides/pacelines/pelotons etc require a level of bike handling skill that the vast majority of triathletes don't have, because they don't need it and don't train it. As an example, one of the things our team worked on in our winter skills camp was elbowing/bumping shoulders in corners to get accustomed to racing in very close quarters. Not uncommon at all for riders to touch in a peloton and to be riding literally inches apart.

They don't care that you're on a tri bike. They care about how you ride whatever bike your on. They don't care if a triathlete drops them.. They want a good ride, the more strong riders the better. I've done plenty rides with cat1-3 guys, they don't care as long as you don't do stupid things. Even if you do, they tell you.. maybe rudely, but you learn and then everyone is happy.

1. If you ride aero in the group, they hate you.
2. If you are all shakey when someone gets 2ft near you, they are scared of you, but you will think they hate you.
3. If you do long, faster pulls in aero and your back comes up to the guys bars behind you, they will hate you.
4. If you pull back a breakaway in aero, they will hate you.


If you only ride aero while behind the main group or just dangle off the front, they don't care.

If you relax keep up and stay on the guys wheel infront of you.. they will like you.

If you shoot of the front and drop all of them.. they will probably praise you.

If you know how to corner and not give up a 10m gap every turn.. they will also like you.



Edited by smilford 2009-06-23 11:27 AM

And that's why they hate it when they get dropped by a triathlete.

For the record I don't do group rides and don't give a rats a$$ about learning the dynamics or riding in a peloton, but I sure as hell can handle my bike in close quarters or on technical terrain. I got mad skillz, and I take exception to the bashing of triathlete bicycling skills in general. I've seen group rides on the roads around here and I'll bet the "average" triathlete can handle their bike just as well as the "average" roadie in the groups I've seen. Remember, half the world is below average.

I'm not getting into roadies are better/worse than triathletes....  I've seen triathletes and roadies with crummy handling.  And both with great handling.

Another issue touched on by Shane is the different geometry. In a group ride, if you have to come to a fast stop, being more forward on a tri bike may tend to cause one to go over the handlebars easier than if you were on a more relaxed road bike.

And handling is simply a bit twitchier on a TT bike.  There's no question about that.  Not that a TT can't be handled well, but it has to be handled differently.  A little less room for error

I ride in groups mixed up with tri and road bikes all the time (well, used to, when I could train ).  If I am with 2 or 3 guys that I trust, we will paceline in aero on occasion (yes, I know the danger of doing so, even with a trusted mate).  But I would never be in aero with someone I don't know or in a large group (even if trusted). 

ETA - there is also just "attitude."  I have a friend with a road bike with clipons.  He was in a group ride and was told he couldn't ride the bike in the group, even though he wasn't (and would not have been during the ride) in aero.

Edited by ChrisM 2009-06-23 11:54 AM

Err, Cat1 bike is semipro, and faster than most elite triathletes on a bike leg. Cat4 is also not novice bike racer, and I would bet that a true Cat4 bike racer is faster than 98% of triathletes out there on the bike.

Edited by agarose2000 2009-06-23 11:54 AM

Yeah, I was talking about this line...

Cat 4 is pretty novice. You can get a Cat 4 UCI license without ever have raced if you are 30 or over.

Edited by jeng 2009-06-23 12:00 PM

No offense, but if you can't handle yourself in a pack, then your "skillz" aren't so mad as they apply to fast group rides or road races.

It's not a triathlete/non-triathlete thing--if you're a smart, capable, safe rider, you'll be fine and nobody will take issue. No need to develop some kind of victim complex about it.

So you can't just say "No offense" and then offend someone. It doesn't get you off the hook.
Where did you get the notion that I can't handle myself in a pack? My reference to the peloton was in response to someone mentioning the need to learn how to work in a group which I took to mean the subtle nuances of when to pass, when to lead, when to drop, etc. That to me has less to do with technical skills and more to do with communication. I'll ride elbow to elbow with anybody. I'm just not interested in learnig the group dynamic because I race USAT triathlon, where riding in packs is illegal. To your victim refernce; WTF? Read the thread and report back how many times it's mentioned that triathlete's aren't good bike handlers. That generalization is where I take exception.

As a roadie, I get terrified by tri bikes.  Mostly because triathletes train to ride in a straight line, fast, at a steady pace, and simply don't understand the dynamic of a group ride.  Road rides aren't straight, fast, steady rides; people sprint, elbows get bumped, and the paceline reforms.  The paceline itself is a skill that's gained in many, many hours of riding.  If you don't know what's going on, you can hurt or kill someone else.

So if all you know is tri-riding, and you want to ride in a group, learn the rules, ride mid-pack, observe and learn.  It's a different sport.  And if someone yells at you, it's probably for your own good, so don't get your feathers ruffled.

i ride with my tri in several groups.  never had problems but rule are "never in aero unless pulling" 

although i do hear complaining when i pull and the person behind me get blasted by the wind.  but at the same time they are happy when i can pull for several miles at 28-30 mph. 

So to sum up:

1. You claim "mad skillz" riding in packs. (do adults really talk like that?)
2. In lieu of said "mad skillz," you claim that despite no real experience riding in a fast group, you're good at it.

So basically, attitudes like yours are why there's a stigma against triathletes at group rides. The skills that you think are beneath you make you SAFE. People with "mad skillz" take out other riders. I'm sorry, but claiming that you're tired of the stigma while simultaneously professing a proud ignorance of group riding skills makes it hard to see you as the awesome cyclist you're claiming to be.


Edited by DrPete 2009-06-23 4:24 PM