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Brick Training
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 2009-06-24 1:10 PM |
 10 |  Subject: Brick TrainingGreetings! I haven't been able to find any information regarding brick training frequency and recovery time. I started brick training (bike/run) a few weeks ago (12.5 miles/3.1 miles) and and lately that has become the predominant manner in which I train. Currently, I'm doing 24/3 bricks and swimming on non-brick days. For the most part, I'm listening to my body and if I feel too tired, experience knee pain, etc I modify my training accordingly (including not training if necessary). I guess my question(s) is this: a) how often should one brick train? b) what kind of recovery time is recommended between brick sessions and c) is it recommended to break a brick session into intervals (instead of a 24/3 maybe do 3-8/1's)? Thanks, John. |
| 2009-06-24 1:23 PM in reply to: #2240134 |
Cycling Guru 15134    Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Brick Training First, welcome to BT! Now ... as to frequency and benefit of bricks, that is a touchy topic in some ways. There are those (like myself) who do not prescribe many at all except for one of two reasons: 1) You simply don't have the time available to do two separate workouts and this is the most effective use of your limited training time. 2) For newer athletes so that they can get used to the feelings and understand what going from one activity to another will be like so that come race day they are not suprised. The reason I say that is that there is little to no accurate data to support any sort of adaptations or physiological changes that are to be gained from doing bricks (other than simply increasing your overall training load) One cannot "train" themself to run faster off the bike by doing it more. You will be limited to your overall fitness, not by how many bricks you do. Even IF there is some sort of physiological benefit, it will happen within the first few hundreds meters or so, not 5 miles down the road as many people seem to think by doing all these long bricks. So to answer your questions from my perspective: a) Only in races or maybe two or three times if you have not raced before just to get a sense of what it feels like. b) Whatever time your next race is. c) If you are insisting on doing them at all, the three 8/1 would be better as long as you are using it for practicing your actual transitions just like you would in the race (i.e. - what you are really working on is changing shoes/clothes and being efficient in your transition and not trying to gain any endurance benefit). Fast transitions are free speed as transitions can make up 2 - 3 minutes of your overall time in short races. Just my thoughts on the topic. There are plenty here who will vehemently disagree, but their opinions are based on their own individual experiences, nothing really "scientific" to prove otherwise. Not that there is anything wrong with that.  |
| 2009-06-24 3:11 PM in reply to: #2240207 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Brick Training what rick said. |
 2009-06-24 4:04 PM in reply to: #2240134 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-06-24 7:08 PM in reply to: #2240207 |
| Veteran 109 Thousand Oaks, CA | Subject: RE: Brick Training As a complete no0b to this, I have found it interesting how much going from one sport to another takes out of you. I can run a 10k (proved it to myself last week) comfortably, but when I go from a 45 minute bike to a run, I can barely go 3k! Yesterday the pool at the gym was full, so I spent 15 minutes on the stationary bike. I was wiped out for the swim and did half my usual workout. |
| 2009-06-25 6:46 AM in reply to: #2240789 |
| Veteran 120 Milton Keynes, UK | Subject: RE: Brick Training PennState - 2009-06-24 10:04 PM X3 on what Rick said. Personally I haven't done a brick in about a year. For an experienced triathlete *I* think they are over-rated.
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| 2009-06-25 7:11 AM in reply to: #2240207 |
| Master 2202 Canton, Michigan | Subject: RE: Brick Training Daremo - 2009-06-24 2:23 PM First, welcome to BT! Now ... as to frequency and benefit of bricks, that is a touchy topic in some ways. There are those (like myself) who do not prescribe many at all except for one of two reasons: 1) You simply don't have the time available to do two separate workouts and this is the most effective use of your limited training time. I'm following the Be Iron Fit training plan for the IM distance and the above reason is exactly why it has weekly bricks as the plans are made to be "Time Efficient" The days I have bricks works out real well as I can normally get a decent workout in before heading off to work for a 24 hour shift, where doing a brick can be doable if things work out but it's nice going to work and knowing I'm done with training for the day, not to mention not having to load up the bike stuff and trainer. But as stated once you know what to expect coming off the bike and heading into the run I'm not sure how much of a benefit they may or may not be. I just know after being back at tris again for a few years coming off the bike isn't really a big deal for me. But for my wife who is a newbie at Tri's this year, doing a few bricks before her first tri helped her just to get the feel for what its like coming off the bike, but isn't a normal part of her training. |
| 2009-06-25 7:27 AM in reply to: #2240134 |
| Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Brick Training Iron Fit is really designed around getting the best bang for your buck for full time working people. So it is not surprising he puts in a good deal of bricks. There are a lot of those "inspirational" stories scattered throughout the book about working umpteen million hours and still having enough time to train for a sub-9 race while raising 6 kids and having a happy sex life. As I always try to say, I am not against bricks if that is what someone wants to do, and I will prescribe them for the reasons mentioned above or to test bike nutrition for longer distance stuff (to make sure the athlete doesn't hurl coming off the bike from mixing up some toxic concoction on the ride in their stomach with 10 different nutrition sources). But they are very limited in my plans, and NEVER at anything over recovery pace for the run. |
| 2009-06-25 7:34 AM in reply to: #2241150 |
| Extreme Veteran 418 Pittsburgh | Subject: RE: Brick Training I find this to be true as well. My overall fitness has definitely dramatically improved since beginning triathlon training, but I'm not yet what anybody would call "very fit," and the bike is my weakest link. I can also comfortably run 10k, and I am fast enough to place in the middle of my age group when I run a 5k or 10k race. But coming off a 20k bike ride, I have a very hard time adjusting to the feeling of running. Probably a lot of our struggle is due to the fact that, by virtue of our inexperience, we push the bike and swim very hard and then expect to be able to run afterwards. I think that, for me and my newbiedom, it's valuable to do a brick workout once every week or two in order to gauge how hard I *can* push the bike and then be able to run afterwards. But I prefer to just bike, or just run, because I feel like that is doing more towards building my fitness as a cyclist and runner, and ultimately improving the engine is going to be the best thing I can do to be sure I'm ready to transition from bike to run on race day. (Plus then I don't have the ego letdown of going from running 5 miles at 9 MM pace to 2 or 3 miles at 12, lol.) |
| 2009-06-25 7:40 AM in reply to: #2240134 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Brick Training I think the issue with BRICKS, and the part that seems the most contentious, is it depends on what you feel you are getting out of them from a training perspective. If it's to train the body to learn how to run off the bike you might be barking up the wrong tree as there isn't a lot out there to support that kind of adaptation. If it's to add run mileage, sure, that's ok. It can also be used as as a way to extend an aerobic workout or the bike can be used as a longer warm-up before a run. The point is that the workout needs to HAVE a point, be that time, mileage, aerobic, AT, whatever. Training to run off the bike is not a point. Edited by bryancd 2009-06-25 7:41 AM |
| 2009-06-25 7:53 AM in reply to: #2241796 |
| Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Brick Training bryancd - 2009-06-25 8:40 AM The point is that the workout needs to HAVE a point, be that time, mileage, aerobic, AT, whatever. Training to run off the bike is not a point. Winner winner chicken dinner! ^^^^ |
| 2009-06-25 8:21 AM in reply to: #2241796 |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Brick Training bryancd - 2009-06-25 8:40 AM The point is that the workout needs to HAVE a point, be that time, mileage, aerobic, AT, whatever. Training to run off the bike is not a point. Really? Doing something to get used to doing something has no point? I suppose the first time you ever ran after biking was in your first triathlon? I see some value in b/r brick workouts, but do agree that the ROI changes over time. |
| 2009-06-25 8:22 AM in reply to: #2240134 |
| Veteran 120 Milton Keynes, UK | Subject: RE: Brick Training Sorry to be a pain here but of the main people who don’t see much value in bricks one is a ZOOT ULTRA Triathlon Team member and one a USAC & USATF Coach (both very impressive) but it’s little wonder you don’t get much out of a brick you are probably some of the fittest/fastest people on this site. Maybe the more experienced (nearly professional) athletes have forgotten what it’s like to be in the first few months of training for a triathlon, the brick makes you feel like you’ve achieved more in your workout and also makes you believe you’re better prepared for a race. Bryancd and daremo I’m not meaning to be difficult I think it's a case of different levels of athletes use different techniques/tools to get the results they want and in some newbies cases bricks work for us. |
| 2009-06-25 8:25 AM in reply to: #2241888 |
| Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Brick Training mrbbrad - 2009-06-25 8:21 AM bryancd - 2009-06-25 8:40 AM The point is that the workout needs to HAVE a point, be that time, mileage, aerobic, AT, whatever. Training to run off the bike is not a point. Really? Doing something to get used to doing something has no point? I suppose the first time you ever ran after biking was in your first triathlon? I see some value in b/r brick workouts, but do agree that the ROI changes over time. No, doing something to "get used to it" is one thing, doing it because it provides a training adaptation is different. Doing a BRICK at least once or twice before your first race is fine to go through the motions and know what it will "feel" like. That's not what we are discussing, or at least what I am saying. Doing BRICKS as part of a training methodolgy designed to develop run off the bike muscles has no point as there are no such things. Doing them for other reasons like I mentioned DO have potential benefits. Agin, it's all in how you define the point of the workout. |
| 2009-06-25 8:31 AM in reply to: #2241890 |
| Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Brick Training Bob the Trier! - 2009-06-25 8:22 AM Maybe the more experienced (nearly professional) athletes have forgotten what it’s like to be in the first few months of training for a triathlon, the brick makes you feel like you’ve achieved more in your workout and also makes you believe you’re better prepared for a race. Bryancd and daremo I’m not meaning to be difficult I think it's a case of different levels of athletes use different techniques/tools to get the results they want and in some newbies cases bricks work for us. No not at all! We have this BRICK discussion monthly around here and everyone still get's along fine.  What I am saying is simply doing BRICKS regularly to "make you believe" you are better prepared is a bit of a canard. You can do a few before a race to acheive that "feeling" or "belief" and that certainly has benefit. However, what is more important is teh "specificity" of your training and how that helps make you a better athlete. A lot of folks think a BRICK trains you to run better/faster off the bike. That's not the case. Effective bike and run training makes you run faster off the bike. Instead of loading a training schedule with BRICKS for the sake of the "fee", I would suggest that time might be better spent recovering and doing a killer run workout in the morning. |
| 2009-06-25 9:06 AM in reply to: #2240134 |
| Veteran 318 Ardmore, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Brick Training i'm surprised with the lack of female responses on this subject! ladies how do you feel? In the beginning of the season i did a few bricks to get used to the activity change. I rarely do them now unless I have tons of time and i want a really long workout. I found that working on my running alone and doing some stretching on the bike pre-transition helped more than anything. And ironoically i posted my best ever 5K time in my triathlon last sunday! sometimes i feel guilty for not doing more bricks, glad I read this thread |
| 2009-06-25 9:57 AM in reply to: #2241890 |
| Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Brick Training Bob the Trier! - 2009-06-25 9:22 AM Sorry to be a pain here but of the main people who don’t see much value in bricks one is a ZOOT ULTRA Triathlon Team member and one a USAC & USATF Coach (both very impressive) but it’s little wonder you don’t get much out of a brick you are probably some of the fittest/fastest people on this site. Maybe the more experienced (nearly professional) athletes have forgotten what it’s like to be in the first few months of training for a triathlon, the brick makes you feel like you’ve achieved more in your workout and also makes you believe you’re better prepared for a race. Bryancd and daremo I’m not meaning to be difficult I think it's a case of different levels of athletes use different techniques/tools to get the results they want and in some newbies cases bricks work for us. Again, I refer to my initial post. There are reasons to do bricks and I am not against them in general. And pretty much everyone I work with now (and there are only a very few) are basically beginners or still fairly new to the sport - so it is not being responded to as an experienced athlete lending their training regimen. My answers were not what I would personally do (I do zero bricks in training at all), but are how I approach the topic with ANY athlete that I would be attempting to help or work with. And see Bryan's post above. If there is a tangible reason and you have them scheduled or prescribed to you, go for it! But people try to fool themselves into thinking they will be able to run better off the bike just by doing bricks. It doesn't work like that. I'm a low 5 hour IM rider on a flatter course and I'm a BQ runner in stand alone marathons. But I've yet to run an entire IM marathon and have two pretty crappy results to show for those efforts from a personal standpoint. Those were NOT because of lack of bricks. They were from lack of overall fitness in both instances and pushing the bike too hard more specifically in one. Yet I have no problem ripping off top 10% runs in shorter events - again on no brick training. |
| 2009-06-25 9:59 AM in reply to: #2242039 |
| Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Brick Training gonnafinish plscheer - 2009-06-25 10:06 AMI found that working on my running alone and doing some stretching on the bike pre-transition helped more than anything. And ironoically i posted my best ever 5K time in my triathlon last sunday! Because it is not a gender thing.  Congrats on your success!! Now go run a stand alone 5k and crush that time. |
| 2009-06-25 10:14 AM in reply to: #2240134 |
| Master 2355 Houston, TX | Subject: RE: Brick Training This is probably one of the best brick threads I've seen. x2 what Bryan and Daremo said in all their posts. |
| 2009-06-25 10:22 AM in reply to: #2240134 |
| Expert 1342 Apex, NC | Subject: RE: Brick Training Perhaps the greatest benefit I get from bricks is improving transition times. I also do one or two before a race to make sure my race goals are in-line with my current capabilities. I am doing one today on the actual course I will be racing in 2.5 weeks, more for course familiarization than anything else (plus I am time-crunched for today). I don't do them as a regular part of my training, but I do see the benefits, primarily in mental preparation. Not so much physical. |
| 2009-06-25 10:30 AM in reply to: #2240134 |
| Elite 3395 Raleigh | Subject: RE: Brick Training I can see a couple more reason for an occasional brick workout: 1. To work on adapting your effort at the end of the bike so that you put yourself in the best place for the run, e.g., working on some stretches on the bike and emphasizing different muscle groups at that point: and 2. For longer distance triathlons, working on the right nutrition and timing of that nutrition, also to maximize your condition for the run. Just MTCW. Doug |
| 2009-06-25 10:40 AM in reply to: #2240207 |
| Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Brick Training Daremo - 2009-06-24 1:23 PM First, welcome to BT! The reason I say that is that there is little to no accurate data to support any sort of adaptations or physiological changes that are to be gained from doing bricks (other than simply increasing your overall training load) I'm not entering this discussion (cuz its like talking to a BRICK wall |
| 2009-06-25 10:51 AM in reply to: #2242387 |
| Master 1651 Breckenridge, CO | Subject: RE: Brick Training DougRob - 2009-06-25 9:30 AM 2. For longer distance triathlons, working on the right nutrition and timing of that nutrition, also to maximize your condition for the run. Just MTCW. Doug +2. I don't care much at all about the argument of whether running after a bike trains slightly different muscles or trains the same muscles differently/better/worse but I personaly don't put a lot of faith upon "studies" that "prove/disprove" anything. IMO, all people are different and it's logically impossible to know with high confidence exactly what the optimal training approach for each individual would be or if an optimal approach even exists for that individual. For various reasons, I think my training duration should mimic the race that I'm training for fairly often. If I'm going to Bike/Run for 4 hours in a race, I think I should be fit enough to perform without significant fatigue in training for 4 hours. Since I can't run for 4 hours and stay healthy/sane and I've proven to myself that cycling fitness (nor the other activities I enjoy) does anything for my run fitness, all I'm left with is a 4-hour bike/run combination. Edited by breckview 2009-06-25 10:59 AM |
| 2009-06-25 11:51 AM in reply to: #2242365 |
| Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Brick Training as a side note for those thinking bricks are going to make you run faster off the bike, think about this for a min. Your run training is going to determine how fast you can run a said distance. Your cycling training/pacing is going to determine how close to that open time you can hit during a triathlon (yes this is also goign to be effected by the swim and your nutrition, but you get hte point). running more is going to allow you to run faster, and biking more is going to allow you to come off the bike and run a much more solid run. |
| 2009-06-25 12:28 PM in reply to: #2242420 |
| Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Brick Training Birkierunner - 2009-06-25 11:40 AM So, saying that no data exists to support bricks doesn't mean much to me. Similaryly, no studies have been conducted to say they have no effect. So lets not talk about this like its been proven they have no physiological adaption. My 2.5 cents Burden of proof is on the people making the claims that it actually benefits in some manner. Same with weight training and stretching. No one is making claims that doing bricks hurts you. And the one study the proponents jump on and wave in the air is crap (being able to run their 10k split +/- 15% faster). We have kept this one nice and civil, let's not break that effort. |
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