Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

Forums

Forum guidelines BT super discount

Updated posts

My threads
No new posts

My favorite threads

General Discussion

Triathlon Talk » Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

Rss Feed

Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller

of 2

alicefoeller

2010-01-29 9:39 AM

Master

2210

Columbus, Ohio

Coaching member

Subject: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

Over the past year or year and a half, I have finally managed to get somewhat faster on the run.

This is opening up a whole new world to me, because I finally can understand the differences between a tempo run, a race-pace run, an easy run, etc.

When you run 10:00/miles, it's pretty difficult to go slower than that and still be running, and I wasn't capable of going much faster. My range on pace was pretty much from 9:30/mi (FAST!) to 11:00/mi, which was about as slow as I could go without walking.

So now that I can do 8:05/mi for shorter distances, I can finally understand the differences in the workouts on the training plan. I can definitely comprehend a difference between 8:05/mi and 10:00/mi!

When I look at other (faster) people's logs, I can see that they sometimes do a longer run at 6:20/mi, and sometimes the same distance at 8:30/mi, and the light is finally coming on. It's not that I didn't understand about different paces, it's just that I didn't really HAVE different paces, and if I was going longer, I automatically slowed down, and if I was going shorter, I automatically sped up as much as I could, which wasn't much. The speed I was running was pretty much my only speed. So "race pace" didn't mean much to me, because I raced at essentially the same speed I trained at all the time. Intervals helped a lot to break through this!

Now I am struggling to figure out how to go farther at a given (faster) pace. Just because I can run 8:23/mi sometimes doesn't mean I can do it for a whole marathon. But does that mean I really need to drop all the way back to 10:00/mi for the marathon, like I did last fall? Probably not. This is something I just need to build on and test from time to time, I guess.

That's all!

My Race Log

JohnnyKay

2010-01-29 9:48 AM

in reply to: #2642266

Not a Coach

11473

Media, PA

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

ahohl - 2010-01-29 10:39 AM
Now I am struggling to figure out how to go farther at a given (faster) pace.

That's easy. Run more.

My Race Log

mkarr0110

2010-01-29 9:52 AM

in reply to: #2642266

Expert

1690

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

lol sometimes im doin 11 minute miles and i feel like im at full speed. you just must be really tall (for my ego sake please dont respond to that). When you say intervals what kind of intervals how many times a week on what kind of course? I totally agree i have no concept of fast pace for a distance vs a slow pace. I either go my pace (about 11:30 a mile in the 10s if im feeling good) or i try to go slower which seems like plodding almost at times (12-13 mins a mile).

My Race Log

mchubri

2010-01-29 9:53 AM

in reply to: #2642266

Expert

1007

NW NJ

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

Wow, Alice, I am currently experiencing this same exact revelation as you.

I am following, and trusting, a plan that is building my speed over time. Intervals starting at 400's week one, to now 1600's and beyond. It is definitly helping and I am getting faster and more comfortable holding the faster paces over longer periods of time. Tempo runs varying from 3 miles to 8, long runs, easy runs. Prior to this I had runs, that was it, no structure. Although I generally hate the treadmill, I'm glad I'm doing this in the dead of winter because I feel I can control the environment and pace more precisely on the treadmill than if I was out on my own. The treadmill can tell me that I am running a 7:50 mile and I don't have to guess. I know what it feels like to run that pace vs the 9:00 mile pace i use for easy runs. This is a 1/2 marathon plan I'm on by the way.

Like you, I am determined to get faster this year! Great Post!

My Race Log

newbz

2010-01-29 9:54 AM

in reply to: #2642296

Champion

7233

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

it took me upping my running to really start to understand/put that into action as well.

and even now (part of the reason i run by effort and not pace) i find day to day easy is not always the same pace.

i've had in the last month 6-10mi easy runs that have ranged from 6:40 all the way to 8:45 min per mile at the same effort level. a big reason why listening to your body is a good thing.

i actually tend to slow down more on my shorter runs than the longer stuff too, and treat those more jsut as a bit of extra distance rather than a workout.

My Race Log

Maria527

2010-01-29 9:55 AM

in reply to: #2642266

Expert

1118

, North Carolina

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

Enjoyed reading your thoughts. Here's something else that may be helpful to you. The McMillan Pace Calculator:

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm

You put in your fastest pace for a particular distance and it will tell you what you should be able to do for longer distance (provided you put in the training). It also outlines training paces for you.

I've used this calculator from 5K to 10K, then from 10K to half mary... and I was shocked at how accurate it was for me!

When I first saw the results, I thought "there is NO WAY I can race that fast!" But to my surprise, I raced within seconds of what it predicted, both times. You can do it.

Oh, one more thing. Having a Garmin is a big help. I use the pace alarm A LOT! The alarm sounds if you start to lag too slow. It can also alarm if you go too fast and you're tryng to keep a slow steady pace, but that's never been an issue for me!

Edited by maria40nc 2010-01-29 9:59 AM

My Race Log

agarose2000

2010-01-29 9:59 AM

in reply to: #2642266

Master

2460

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

Running fast across a variety of distances takes a lot of work.

The more running volume the better - even at easier paces. But still, to actually run faster than your current top speed for a distance, you have to do hard interval work - the ones that really hurt.

If you're training for a marathon, I'd highly recommend going with a structured running plan from a book or online that's near what you're doing now in running volume. It's very easy to overdo it during marathon training.

For pacing, your best bet is to use a pace "calculator" and adjust it. Basically, it will take your latest race result, and the estimate theoretical paces for other races as well as training paces.

This calculator is an AGGRESIVE one, particularly for the marathon, meaning that you should aim to run slower than their projections unless you're putting up 50+ miles per week. But still, it's a good place to start.

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm

vball03umd

2010-01-29 10:08 AM

in reply to: #2642312

Master

1678

Olney, MD

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

mkarr0110 - 2010-01-29 10:52 AM I totally agree i have no concept of fast pace for a distance vs a slow pace. I either go my pace (about 11:30 a mile in the 10s if im feeling good) or i try to go slower which seems like plodding almost at times (12-13 mins a mile).

I'm curious about this. Running "fast" should feel the same for all runners, no matter if you consider yourself fast or slow. You're running fast if you are huffing and puffing. Whether that's a 6:30 pace for someone, or a 11:00 pace for another. Same with running slower. Easy, conversational pace. It feels the same. Recovery runs, guilty easy, feel like plodding for everyone!

My husband, who considers himself a slower runner, would tell me that's not possible for him to run at an easy effort and if he ran any slower, he would be walking. I think that's bull and I started running with him to help him understand that's possible for him to slow it down. His fast pace, where he is huffing and puffing, is about a 10:00 min/mi. When we run together, I keep the pace conversational for him and we run about an 11ish min/mile. Try to pay attention to effort, not pace, and you can vary your run workouts.

Edited by vball03umd 2010-01-29 10:09 AM

My Race Log

ultrahip_00

2010-01-29 10:14 AM

in reply to: #2642266

Master

1610

Kirkland, WA

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

first off, great job!! that is a heck of an improvement.

Second - i agree that it takes a while to develop the base to where you can recognize different effort levels. i remember when i first started running, a little over 2.5 years ago, how i had one pace, and it was pretty dang hard, and i could go 2 miles. . and it was around 8:30 pace. I battled minor injury and slowed down, and gradually built up. Low and behold, my 'typical' long run or crusing pace is around 8:00 - 8:20. . but I can pick it up a lot faster for tempo and racing. I never imagined that i could hit the times i have!

amazing what consistency over a couple years will do

My Race Log

scottyr7

2010-01-29 10:31 AM

in reply to: #2642346

Extreme Veteran

465

Atlanta, GA

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

vball03umd - 2010-01-29 11:08 AM

I think that this nails it. It's all about perceived effort. I've really just recently started building my running volume (training for a half mary). My longer runs are at a conversation pace. If I'm not able to have a conversation, then I am going to hard. Looking back now, my mile times have actually gotten slightly faster even though my amount of effort has stayed pretty constant.

Also, congrats on the gains! It feels great watching those times come down.

Edited by scottyr7 2010-01-29 10:36 AM

My Race Log

bufit323

2010-01-29 10:58 AM

in reply to: #2642407

Veteran

139

Metairie

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

I have been running for just over a year. For a long time, I felt like I could run at 10:00 /mile or walk and there was nothing else for me (so I know what you were feeling).

A year later, I still can not pace worth a darn. I do notice that some days a 3 mile run feels super easy at 8:00 /mile and then a day later, I am struggling to hit 8:30 on same run.

I have been trying to hold 30 miles per week, but it is where I always hit trouble (injury, illness, schedule, etc). I sure hope that if I can hold out and run 30 miles per week (or more) for months, things will come more naturally to me (as far as pacing goes).

My Race Log

tcovert

2010-01-29 11:49 AM

in reply to: #2642346

Champion

5781

Northridge, California

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

vball03umd - 2010-01-29 8:08 AM

I'm curious about this. Running "fast" should feel the same for all runners, no matter if you consider yourself fast or slow. You're running fast if you are huffing and puffing. Whether that's a 6:30 pace for someone, or a 11:00 pace for another. Same with running slower. Easy, conversational pace. It feels the same. Recovery runs, guilty easy, feel like plodding for everyone!

In principle, you're right. In practice, the key word above is "should."

I went through this with my wife recently--she's an inexperienced runner with a lot of potential (IMO, anyhow). Like a lot of novice runners, she thought she was pushing up against a threshold when she actually was nowhere near it. A couple months ago she had a breakthrough...now she understands better what the real effort level in a tempo run actually is and now she's better able to vary the intent of individual workouts. For people who have never been pushed through training for running competition, I've seen a pretty frequent lack of understanding of just how much a hard speed workout actually hurts and also of how much more they actually have in reserve that they are backing off from...setting their "fast" speed at persistent stitch in the side, rather than "OMG, I'm gonna puke."

Put another way, for a novice runner without sufficient context, what they think is an RPE of "10" might only seem like an "8" to a more experienced racer. RPE (which I train by, fwiw) is talked about as if it's an objective scale where values feel the same to everyone, but of course it is really subjective. The other poster who talked about a conversational pace put it well, I thought...the issue though is usually on the fast end of the scale, rather than the easy end.

My Training Log My Race Log

newbz

2010-01-29 11:52 AM

in reply to: #2642653

Champion

7233

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

tcovert - 2010-01-29 10:49 AM

vball03umd - 2010-01-29 8:08 AM

this also sort of begs the question, have you seen anyone on this site running fast enough to be doing speed workouts that hurt like that?

My Race Log

tcovert

2010-01-29 12:00 PM

in reply to: #2642266

Champion

5781

Northridge, California

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

^^ Sure. When I poke around my FL and some of the "training groups", I see people doing some fairly intense interval workouts, including some mile interval sets that I know I couldn't finish. Not to pat myself on the back too hard, but, honestly, I've done some track workouts with the Disney corporate tri team that killed me.

Most triathletes who's logs I look at, though, pretty clearly aren't scratching the surface of where they might get to in terms of run training...they're where my wife was before her "breakthrough". And, let's not be too P.C. about it, alot of times it is because of weight. You can hide that a bit on the bike and a lot in the water, but not on the run. But RPE is RPE (and HR is HR) and weight is ultimately irrelevant when talking about effort.

My Training Log My Race Log

newbz

2010-01-29 12:14 PM

in reply to: #2642684

Champion

7233

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

the 2nd half of that i totally agree with. we all have diff goals, and i know for me, i'm still about 8 pounds over where i want to race at, and even if its only 1 sec per pounds per mile, thats 24ish sec of a 5k, it matters, a lot.

i guess more what i meant was on the speed front, you need to be going damn fast in my opinion to ever need to see puke pace in a workout. like guys in the 15:xx range for 5k (distances under 5k on the track i'm not talking about).

i'm not exactly sure if you were saying you should though so if not please ignore,.

My Race Log

dermoski

2010-01-29 12:30 PM

in reply to: #2642266

Extreme Veteran

574

Southwestern Ontario

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

I just started running less than a year ago, and took too long a break over the winter. In any event, I know exactly where the OP is coming from. I have one pace, except that I'm much slower. Right now, I've been running 2 miles, 3x/wk at a 12:00 min/mile pace. My RPE is not that high (maybe 6 or 7 - I could speak to you in short sentences), but I worry about HR. Toward the end of the 2 miles last, my HR was at 178. At the one mile mark, it was about 156.

I think I should increase volume before speed, but I would obviously like to go faster. Sorry if this has become a hijack, but I'd appreciate your thougths. I will check out the above-noted website too.

newbz

2010-01-29 12:35 PM

in reply to: #2642757

Champion

7233

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

dermoski - 2010-01-29 11:30 AM

I just started running less than a year ago, and took too long a break over the winter. In any event, I know exactly where the OP is coming from. I have one pace, except that I'm much slower. Right now, I've been running 2 miles, 3x/wk at a 12:00 min/mile pace. My RPE is not that high (maybe 6 or 7 - I could speak to you in short sentences), but I worry about HR. Toward the end of the 2 miles last, my HR was at 178. At the one mile mark, it was about 156.

I think I should increase volume before speed, but I would obviously like to go faster. Sorry if this has become a hijack, but I'd appreciate your thougths. I will check out the above-noted website too.

to get thigns back on topic (and answer your question too).

simply running more WILL make you faster. and until you are running A LOT running harder wont get you faster any quicker (or only a very very tiny bit faster), but it will carry a much higher risk of injury.

you are going about it right (as it sounds like alice, the OP is). build miles, sustain for a bit, then build more. from where you are now, you could once you get used to this, maybe add a 4th day of 2 miles. or ad a mile to two runs. (i vote for another short run right now over getting longer, more recovery time).

My Race Log

dermoski

2010-01-29 12:41 PM

in reply to: #2642266

Extreme Veteran

574

Southwestern Ontario

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

Thanks for the input.

mkarr0110

2010-01-29 1:08 PM

in reply to: #2642346

Expert

1690

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

vball03umd - 2010-01-29 11:08 AM

I intended to say that running any faster than 10 mins a mile i can only hold for about a mile to a mile and a half (even at a 9:45 pace) I can do 10-10:30 for 5 miles sort of comfortably. 12 mins would be conversational. I guess my range is just alot smaller than alot of people who have put in more time. I also run on a very hilly course so that could play a large part.

My Race Log

newbz

2010-01-29 1:14 PM

in reply to: #2642869

Champion

7233

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

thats true and makes sense, as you get faster you have a bigger range (your top end is faster but the slow speeds are not going anywhere).

My Race Log

Jason N

2010-01-29 1:16 PM

in reply to: #2642266

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

ahohl - 2010-01-29 5:39 AM My range on pace was pretty much from 9:30/mi (FAST!) to 11:00/mi, which was about as slow as I could go without walking.

I don't feel like I'm walking until I'm going slower than 18 minute miles...but that's just me.

I think a lot of people have a fear of running too slow...that if we stray too far from 10 minute miles, then people will not consider us runners. It's perfectly fine to jog at 11-13 minute miles. I do most of my LRs at just under 11 minutes...but I don't feel like a 12-13 minute mile would mean I'm walking.

My Race Log

alicefoeller

2010-01-29 1:18 PM

in reply to: #2642266

Master

2210

Columbus, Ohio

Coaching member

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

Thanks for the replies everybody!

I understand what the one person was saying - that her husband DID have a "range" between 10:00/mi and 11:00/mi when he thought he had "one speed." But it is just so much easier to understand and feel when you have a larger range, like say between 8:00/mi and 11:00/mi. It all becomes clearer, and the differences in RPE are easier to feel.

Also, regarding the puking feeling, I would say that someone who has never run before could encounter that feeling doing 10:00/mi for five minutes, if they are completely out of shape. I think it has more to do with how far you are pushing out of your comfort zone, versus an absolute speed, like 5:15/mi or something like that. I've never watched Biggest Loser but have heard about it, and I'm sure some of those folks are on the verge of puking during the first week of hard workouts.

I also agree that many of us have a lot "in reserve" and just don't put in the speedwork to discover that. Endurance sports are all about keeping in mind how far we still have to go, and making sure we can make it. So it encourages that tendency not to leave it all out there. (If you look at my log, you'll see one of my mental goals is to push farther into that pain zone from time to time.)

Last year when I got my Garmin I set up an interval workout of 1/4 mile intervals. Hard-easy-hard-easy, etc. Kicked my butt! I wasn't looking at the pace on the watch, just going all out until I heard that wonderful beeping sound that meant I could slow down. I recently did a treadmill run of 5 minute ladders up and down my pace range. That was useful too.

Garmin is nice because I don't feel like I need to locate a track (I have tried!) in order to do a measurable interval workout.

My Race Log

tcovert

2010-01-29 1:31 PM

in reply to: #2642910

Champion

5781

Northridge, California

Subject: RE: Mild revelation about running pace for slower runners like me

ahohl - 2010-01-29 11:18 AM Thanks for the replies everybody!

I understand what the one person was saying - that her husband DID have a "range" between 10:00/mi and 11:00/mi when he thought he had "one speed." But it is just so much easier to understand and feel when you have a larger range, like say between 8:00/mi and 11:00/mi. It all becomes clearer, and the differences in RPE are easier to feel.

Also, regarding the puking feeling, I would say that someone who has never run before could encounter that feeling doing 10:00/mi for five minutes, if they are completely out of shape. I think it has more to do with how far you are pushing out of your comfort zone, versus an absolute speed, like 5:15/mi or something like that. I've never watched Biggest Loser but have heard about it, and I'm sure some of those folks are on the verge of puking during the first week of hard workouts.

I also agree that many of us have a lot "in reserve" and just don't put in the speedwork to discover that. Endurance sports are all about keeping in mind how far we still have to go, and making sure we can make it. So it encourages that tendency not to leave it all out there. (If you look at my log, you'll see one of my mental goals is to push farther into that pain zone from time to time.)

Last year when I got my Garmin I set up an interval workout of 1/4 mile intervals. Hard-easy-hard-easy, etc. Kicked my butt! I wasn't looking at the pace on the watch, just going all out until I heard that wonderful beeping sound that meant I could slow down. I recently did a treadmill run of 5 minute ladders up and down my pace range. That was useful too.

Garmin is nice because I don't feel like I need to locate a track (I have tried!) in order to do a measurable interval workout.

Bolded statement above is key, IMO...and not just the point about pushing further into the "pain zone," but the "from time to time" part. Again just my opinion based on my own running experience, but even a periodic all out time trial of a mile or even a half mile is good, not just as a milestone of progress, but also just to test boundaries. Not to harp on my wife's experience, but it's relevant to the OP's insight...the first time I had her do an all-out mile, she barely made it to the finish and broke down in hysterical tears afterwards...felt like she was gonna die. And of course she didn't...and she was recovered within a few minutes...but that was a major eye opener. She has only maybe repeated that time trial a couple times since then, but it's always a good barometer as to where she is.

Personally, I do a whole lot more running around 8:30-9:00/mile than I do around 6:30-6:45/mi, but it's important for me to do some of my training at that faster pace to maintain (or increase) my speed for racing, even if it's only every couple weeks.

My Training Log My Race Log

Scout7

2010-01-29 1:39 PM

in reply to: #2642266