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2011-03-16 2:22 PM

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Subject: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?

I just graphed the winning men's times at Kona, and it's pretty clear that there is no downward trend over the last 20 years. Given the huge increase in the depth of the field and all the technological innovation, in bikes, nutrition, footware, helmets, etc., how is this possible? Have we been hoodwinked by a bunch of technology that doesn't work?

graph of men's kona times



2011-03-16 2:27 PM
in reply to: #3400704

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?

Well, think about it. Back then, the bikes where heavier. Which mean you needed more muscle to go just as fast. Now granted that these bikes are lighter. Are they still do the same amount of time on the bike as they did back then to build up those muscles, maybe, maybe not? Weight Room? Did they overtrain? That I can't answer.  However I do believe in technology, as being an engineer.

 I would like to see the people who won back then on the equipment we have today. 

 

Thanks for the graph! That  is interesting though..


Scott 

2011-03-16 2:32 PM
in reply to: #3400704

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
Well, the course was altered in 1990 I think and then you have the variability of conditions to take into consideration. Heck, even Marl Allen had almost a 30min swing in his times when he was winning between '89-'93.

Edited by bryancd 2011-03-16 2:34 PM
2011-03-16 2:53 PM
in reply to: #3400704

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Master
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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?

Honestly from my perspective it's just diminishing returns on the bike advantages.

Not looking into the numbers just think about it.

Swim:  It's a non-wetsuit swim.  Skins can help but swimming through chop in a pack.  No major time gains there to be had.

Bike:  Think about the biggest innovations in top end equipment.  The course isn't flat but it's not like climbing in the mountains.  A couple of pounds on the bike weight isn't going to be that major of a factor.  It's about aero drag and we are talking a innovations at the top end bikes that are equivalent of a few minutes.

Run:  Running wins this thing 9 times out of 10.  People run fast regardless of technology.  Fastest runners run in less shoe mostly not the most cushioned and supported shoe on the market.  Look at marathon times for the past 50 years...

Nutrition is just food.  Nothing magical there.

That's why you hear consistent training and hiring a coach is better than buying the nice new shiny toy....people just won't believe it because it takes work and won't instantly add 1mph to their bike regular bike loop...

2011-03-16 3:26 PM
in reply to: #3400752

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?

That's why you hear consistent training and hiring a coach is better than buying the nice new shiny toy....people just won't believe it because it takes work and won't instantly add 1mph to their bike regular bike loop...

 

That is so true... It's actually kind of funny that people think if they throw money at something that they think that they will go faster.   

2011-03-16 3:28 PM
in reply to: #3400704

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
It makes you question all the things we think are necessities like race wheels, infinit, and aerobikes.  Maybe it really does just come down to training.


2011-03-16 3:47 PM
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2011-03-16 3:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
I think another consideration is that the races are more about strategy than going as fast as you can.  The athletes aren't going out there to throw down PRs or course records (although they'll obviously grab it if they can).  They're going out there to win.  Let's say Faris is out there hammering the bike trying to gain a big enough lead to hold on during the run.  If I'm a good runner, I'm not riding the ragged edge of blowing up just to see how fast I can finish.  I'm trying to keep Faris in sight and minimize the damage so that I can safely reel him in once I get on my feet.  If I can stay just close enough to be SURE of catching him, why would I push any harder and risk the race?
2011-03-17 5:36 AM
in reply to: #3400816

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
shellback1998 - 2011-03-16 3:26 PM

That's why you hear consistent training and hiring a coach is better than buying the nice new shiny toy....people just won't believe it because it takes work and won't instantly add 1mph to their bike regular bike loop...

 

That is so true... It's actually kind of funny that people think if they throw money at something that they think that they will go faster.   

 

Of course you go faster by throwing money at it... You will have a much lighter wallet after all...

2011-03-17 10:55 AM
in reply to: #3400704

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?

Well, the technology "works".  But, as some have noted, it shaves minutes and seconds off of a race that takes 8+ hours.  The impact is quite modest.  That leaves the athletes themselevs, the course & conditions and training (I'll leave out PEDs, but it's certainly not impossible that it plays a role). 

Many of the "best" athletes either don't do triathlon (they are siphoned off to other sports--e.g., swimming, cycling or running individually) or focus on things other than IM (like ITU racing).  So maybe it's just tough to get a good pool of candidates to drive steady improvement.

As noted, the course did change.  And conditions are so variable in Hawaii that it would be very tough to see trends over short time horizons.  Perhaps we just need a longer horizon to guage a trend.

Perhaps we're still searching for the best training methodolgies to realize greater potential from athletes.  The pool of people to learn from is actually quite small--IM has not been around THAT long and is practiced at a high level by relatively few.  It's growing, but is not as big as marathoning for instance.  And that's a single sport at a race duration about one-quarter of IM.  Many more opportunities for observations.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head...

2011-03-17 12:10 PM
in reply to: #3400704

Elite
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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
Its all about the run.


2011-03-18 6:02 AM
in reply to: #3400704

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?

We're getting closer to the sun so the hours are longer, meaning the athletes have to cover more ground in less time... so the overall times have stayed pretty much the same this last decade. Complicated stuff, I know...

 

No seriously, I just don't think the sport has enough serious competition (one on one) to really see huge time drops. Mark Allen-Dave Scott wars were legendary, they were battling each other. Now we've got plenty of male and female pros, just not enough WAR BATTLING for the athletes to really give it their all or die trying. Too bad... Maybe it will come along soon...

2011-03-18 6:44 AM
in reply to: #3400715

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
shellback1998 - 2011-03-16 4:27 PM

Well, think about it. Back then, the bikes where heavier. Which mean you needed more muscle to go just as fast.



Interesting premise but pretty much demonstrably false.

Shane
2011-03-18 6:49 AM
in reply to: #3400704

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
neweyes - 2011-03-16 4:22 PM

I just graphed the winning men's times at Kona, and it's pretty clear that there is no downward trend over the last 20 years. Given the huge increase in the depth of the field and all the technological innovation, in bikes, nutrition, footware, helmets, etc., how is this possible? Have we been hoodwinked by a bunch of technology that doesn't work?



Technology works and it pretty easy to prove with some basic testing. Further, you would need to do some more indepth analysis to determine whether the times are dropping as simply taking the winner is not a good indication of precisely what is happening as an outlier or two can dramtically skew the results. As well, looking at both men's and women's times would probably give better insight into improved training, technology, etc as opposed to just looking at the men's field. Finally, Kona is not the best example - it is an incredibly tactical race on the men's side where nobody really cares about breaking the course record but instead just want to win. Looking at a course where many of the top pros are taking a shot at the course record would give better information on whether there is a downward trend or not.

Shane
2011-03-18 11:05 AM
in reply to: #3400854

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
Fred Doucette - 2011-03-16 1:47 PM

It is an interesting subject as most other endurance sports have seen improvements in times.

Theories?
1. Mark Allen and Dave Scott were superstars of the sport and around in the 1980s-90s, which boosted performance results.
2. Equipment has less of a benefit than the aero wheel and bike makers would have us believe.
3. Drug testing standards have improved. I am NOT implicating anyone from the 1980s or 90s, but the testing was less strict at Hawaii then.
4. We are at or near the limit of accomplishment in IM Hawaii and getting much faster is more dependent on weather than pure athletic performance.

 

I don't know, but I am curious as in 1989 Mark Allen went 8:09. Pretty fast!

These are the thoughts as well.  Mark and Dave were studs, and I don't think the bikes help as much as advertised.  Cervelo and other companies do these aero tests that conclude bike 'X' is 5 minutes faster than bike 'Y' but it just doesn't seem to add up.  I'm sure there is an advantage, but I don't see pros jumping on any specific bikes because that is the one that will help them win.

2011-03-18 11:36 AM
in reply to: #3400704

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
One thing to consider is that the second fastest tour stage ever was ridden by Lemond in 1989. 22 years ago he did not have a P3, a P4, zipps, or any of the other things that have become so commonplace in many of the transition areas.

I love cool bikes as much as the next guy, but it is all about the motor.


2011-03-18 12:40 PM
in reply to: #3403126

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
gsmacleod - 2011-03-18 7:49 AM
neweyes - 2011-03-16 4:22 PM

I just graphed the winning men's times at Kona, and it's pretty clear that there is no downward trend over the last 20 years. Given the huge increase in the depth of the field and all the technological innovation, in bikes, nutrition, footware, helmets, etc., how is this possible? Have we been hoodwinked by a bunch of technology that doesn't work?

Technology works and it pretty easy to prove with some basic testing. Further, you would need to do some more indepth analysis to determine whether the times are dropping as simply taking the winner is not a good indication of precisely what is happening as an outlier or two can dramtically skew the results. As well, looking at both men's and women's times would probably give better insight into improved training, technology, etc as opposed to just looking at the men's field. Finally, Kona is not the best example - it is an incredibly tactical race on the men's side where nobody really cares about breaking the course record but instead just want to win. Looking at a course where many of the top pros are taking a shot at the course record would give better information on whether there is a downward trend or not. Shane

Interesting take on this, especially the tactical piece on the mens side, that makes logical sense to me where Chrissie Wellington just goes out and shatters records plus sees how high she can get in the overall standings. That is dragging along the other top pro women to chase her and make huge time leaps as well.

2011-03-18 12:51 PM
in reply to: #3403571

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?

Parr8hed - 2011-03-18 12:36 PM One thing to consider is that the second fastest tour stage ever was ridden by Lemond in 1989. 22 years ago he did not have a P3, a P4, zipps, or any of the other things that have become so commonplace in many of the transition areas. I love cool bikes as much as the next guy, but it is all about the motor.

No, but he did have cutting edge technology for his day and that was likely the difference between first and second.

2011-03-18 1:36 PM
in reply to: #3400704

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
Why aren't top IM times getting faster? I was injured last year.
2011-03-18 1:43 PM
in reply to: #3403708

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
JohnnyKay - 2011-03-18 12:51 PM

Parr8hed - 2011-03-18 12:36 PM One thing to consider is that the second fastest tour stage ever was ridden by Lemond in 1989. 22 years ago he did not have a P3, a P4, zipps, or any of the other things that have become so commonplace in many of the transition areas. I love cool bikes as much as the next guy, but it is all about the motor.

No, but he did have cutting edge technology for his day and that was likely the difference between first and second.

Absolutely. I was just saying that even with the advancement in gear these days that guys like Fabian still have not beaten his average speed over that course.
2011-03-18 2:28 PM
in reply to: #3403515

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
furiousferret - 2011-03-18 12:05 PM
Fred Doucette - 2011-03-16 1:47 PM

It is an interesting subject as most other endurance sports have seen improvements in times.

Theories?
1. Mark Allen and Dave Scott were superstars of the sport and around in the 1980s-90s, which boosted performance results.
2. Equipment has less of a benefit than the aero wheel and bike makers would have us believe.
3. Drug testing standards have improved. I am NOT implicating anyone from the 1980s or 90s, but the testing was less strict at Hawaii then.
4. We are at or near the limit of accomplishment in IM Hawaii and getting much faster is more dependent on weather than pure athletic performance.

 

I don't know, but I am curious as in 1989 Mark Allen went 8:09. Pretty fast!

These are the thoughts as well.  Mark and Dave were studs, and I don't think the bikes help as much as advertised.  Cervelo and other companies do these aero tests that conclude bike 'X' is 5 minutes faster than bike 'Y' but it just doesn't seem to add up.  I'm sure there is an advantage, but I don't see pros jumping on any specific bikes because that is the one that will help them win.

x2

 

They all ride high end bikes, and I don't think that there is 5 minutes difference between one bike to another...

 

IMO



2011-03-18 2:44 PM
in reply to: #3403821

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
Parr8hed - 2011-03-18 2:43 PM
JohnnyKay - 2011-03-18 12:51 PM

Parr8hed - 2011-03-18 12:36 PM One thing to consider is that the second fastest tour stage ever was ridden by Lemond in 1989. 22 years ago he did not have a P3, a P4, zipps, or any of the other things that have become so commonplace in many of the transition areas. I love cool bikes as much as the next guy, but it is all about the motor.

No, but he did have cutting edge technology for his day and that was likely the difference between first and second.

Absolutely. I was just saying that even with the advancement in gear these days that guys like Fabian still have not beaten his average speed over that course.

I don't believe they've run that course since then.  And conditions matter a LOT on the bike, as well.

My point is that if LeMond were racing today, he would likely choose the best technology to give himself every advantage possible.  On top of the training.

2011-03-18 2:50 PM
in reply to: #3403912

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
camaleon - 2011-03-18 4:28 PM

furiousferret - 2011-03-18 12:05 PM

These are the thoughts as well.  Mark and Dave were studs, and I don't think the bikes help as much as advertised.  Cervelo and other companies do these aero tests that conclude bike 'X' is 5 minutes faster than bike 'Y' but it just doesn't seem to add up.  I'm sure there is an advantage, but I don't see pros jumping on any specific bikes because that is the one that will help them win.

x2

 

They all ride high end bikes, and I don't think that there is 5 minutes difference between one bike to another...



While the best frames aren't going to be very different, there are some bikes in the pro field that I would guess give up five minutes or more to the rest of the field. However, this matters most to the guys who are going to put their nose in the wind and ride on or off the front all day. If you are someone who doesn't need to build a lead on the bike, you can plan to sit the legal distance back for as long as possible, enjoy the legal draft and then run down the field.

Shane
2011-03-18 6:18 PM
in reply to: #3403821

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
Parr8hed - 2011-03-18 12:43 PM
JohnnyKay - 2011-03-18 12:51 PM

Parr8hed - 2011-03-18 12:36 PM One thing to consider is that the second fastest tour stage ever was ridden by Lemond in 1989. 22 years ago he did not have a P3, a P4, zipps, or any of the other things that have become so commonplace in many of the transition areas. I love cool bikes as much as the next guy, but it is all about the motor.

No, but he did have cutting edge technology for his day and that was likely the difference between first and second.

Absolutely. I was just saying that even with the advancement in gear these days that guys like Fabian still have not beaten his average speed over that course.

That time trial had a slight tailwind and a 247' elevation drop. I bet the average pace of the field that day was fast.

2011-03-19 5:59 AM
in reply to: #3403126

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Subject: RE: Why aren't top IM times getting faster?
gsmacleod - 2011-03-18 7:49 AM
neweyes - 2011-03-16 4:22 PM

I just graphed the winning men's times at Kona, and it's pretty clear that there is no downward trend over the last 20 years. Given the huge increase in the depth of the field and all the technological innovation, in bikes, nutrition, footware, helmets, etc., how is this possible? Have we been hoodwinked by a bunch of technology that doesn't work?

Technology works and it pretty easy to prove with some basic testing. Further, you would need to do some more indepth analysis to determine whether the times are dropping as simply taking the winner is not a good indication of precisely what is happening as an outlier or two can dramtically skew the results. As well, looking at both men's and women's times would probably give better insight into improved training, technology, etc as opposed to just looking at the men's field. Finally, Kona is not the best example - it is an incredibly tactical race on the men's side where nobody really cares about breaking the course record but instead just want to win. Looking at a course where many of the top pros are taking a shot at the course record would give better information on whether there is a downward trend or not. Shane

I think this is a lot of it.  It might be interesting if sizable bonuses were offered for breaking course records.

 

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