Thecaptin's "BarryP off Slowtwitch" "offseason" running plan

Interesting concept.

So if I run the math to fit 20 mile max in Wk 1, it would look something like?:

3 Short runs of 2 miles = 6

2 Med runs of 4 miles (2x short) = 8

1 long run of 6 miles (3x short) = 6

Because if the short runs avg 3 miles =, then to fit within 20 miles max for the week, that would make the medium and long runs <4 miles as well.

It will be cool to watch the progress.

i hope thecaptin will chime in about what purpose the slow build of volume serves (efficiency, pace, etc). i never actually read the program in full, but when i was running 200-220 mi mostly easy per month i felt like my run was never better. never felt really beat down. was running mid 6s for the final split at rev knox.

we often debate what sport to emphasize and i go with bike then run bec of the sheer abuse of the run on my big old body. Ironically, this program is designed to eliminate injuries too I believe. 

As a cheat....

The short run is always going to be the total weekly volume divided by 10, so it is actually easier to figure out the weekly runs than it appears at first glance.

I dig it. I don't dig running 6 times a week but I should be.  I may take this regimen up after I recover from crashing and burning at Sav. R n' R for not training.

Good luck!

I attributed that to my overall run volume with my long run leading up to it at 11 miles and biggest week at 23.   Kinda light for a HIM.

So the concept does peak my interest.  Thanks for posting

This program does two things:

1) It satisfies the "F" in FITT of frequency. It is a given that the more that you do something the more efficient your body will become at that task. You could adapt this program to swimming and cycling as well.  If you are swimming 5x a week, cycling 5x a week and running 6x a week with no intensity at all you are going to get faster. The reality is that we as "normal people" don't have the time to train like that.

2) By running slower and shorter you allow your body to adapt to the training at a more gradual level which prevents injury. You are also working on what Bobby McGee refers to as "Fat Max" which is basically working on a large aerobic base and the stroke length of each heart beat. This is a basic premise behind any type of lower intensity training where you teach your heart and lungs to become more efficient at a lower intensity.

I really like this approach to training, especially with someone who had been injury prone in the past.

Good luck Cap'n Crunch!

I don't know if I could do 6 runs per week, but my running improved greatly after Doug convinced me to run more than 3x per week. 

I thought that skipping days between runs would be easier on my body, but it was actually easier for me to do shorter runs on more days, even if they were consecutive days.

Go captin!  Run Happy! : )

I'm a big fan of low intensity running.  It allows you to run the miles necessary to be a good runner. 

You rarely see a person  say they are a "bad runner" or that they "hate running' who runs 1200+ miles a year.  But you do see it from people who run inconsistently and hard. 

Build the running base first.  It pays off.

I have spent the last 5 years trying to find short cuts on the run front.  Mostly because I can manage the other two well.  I finally gave up the ghost after Tug.  Long talk with Phat sealed the deal on following this approach.   The lower intensity and running in a more recovered state is exactly what I need.  As Rocketman posted, I have had injuries because of my first sentence.  Time to change it and get smart.

It will feel like a waste of time in the early phase because the distance looks so small, but the view is longer.  I will start to feel the 6 days of running in week 4 or 5 or 6.  Week 1,2 will be trying to speed things up.   So, it will take some discipline and long term vision to make this work.   Remember my "mental toughness" post?  There are lots of forms of it and this will test me. 

If I can get my monthly mileage over 100 in a month and stay healthy, next race season will be interesting.

I direct this at rocketman or anyone who has watched several people do this type of run plan.  Is there a problem on race day with the distance when you have not been over these 7 or 8 mile runs -  Suddenly making the body go 26 or even 13 when it has been going < 7?

 I thought (and maybe I'm wrong) that the plan was a on off-season base-building endeavor and that race-specific training and corresponding mileage increases would come later.

That said, I had an ortho tell me once when I did not want to give up on my first half-mary training because of ITBS, that if I could build to running 6 miles, 3x per week I would have enough fitness to complete (not compete) the half-mary.  He was right.  It definitely worked (including the dance party I had for myself at mile 10 for my first time going double digits) but I was not fast and was sore, really sore, for a solid week.

What Phat did was just quote part of the program...a beginning of sorts.  You wouldn't employ this plan with a long run of 7-8 miles if you were going to run a half or a full.  Instead, you would build just like all other plans.  For instance.

Week 1 & 2 might be:

2/4/2/4/2/8/off  That equals 22 miles in a week....more than most beginners do. 

As you build, you will incrementally add to each of these distances such that you can complete your targeted race.  So for a half marathon, you biggest week might look like this:

4/8/4/8/4/12/off   In this case, you ran 40 miles that week.  Chances are you are more than ready to run a half marathon. 

The plan also allows for tempo runs after about 6-8 weeks of 'base' building.  It substitutes one of the medium runs for a shorter, more intense run. 

While, YMMV, I have had tons of success with the frequency approach to running.  Last winter, I did 50 runs in 50 days and felt a huge boost in my running.  I did little to no intensity.  The best part, I was injury free.  I added intensity as the tri season approached and ran better than any previous season. 

This year, I am using the BarryP plan with a few slight modifications.  I am about 4 weeks into it and already find myself enjoying running more and feeling stronger.  Of course it helps that I have dropped my cycling and swimming down a bit.  But that is what the offseason is for. 

Dollar is right on about that and I am very optimistic with thecaptin's dilligence we will be seeing great progress from him overall esp when he is not always fighting nagging injuries.We all are pulling for you mate!

It always seems like I am picking fights with rocketman on here but I really am not. I don't argue that swimming more and better is valuable, just that it can't really compare in bang for the buck or return on investment for a MOP swimmer as it will for a struggling runner. I think that arguably the quickest or most efficient way to improve in any of the three sports for the "regular Joe" is through this kind of approach, especially applied to running. Ok you can argue that doing more drills and swimming more will help you lower your swim times and help you down the line in B/R, but what are you really going to save in minutes in short course compared to what you gain in pacing on the run. Yes, running slow makes you run faster!

Back to the time issue for the "regular Joe". In most cases, you strap on a shorts, shoes, and a gps watch and step out your front door and get some easy running in. A treadmill is even quicker. There is no need to drive to the pool, check in, or get your bike ready, drive your bike to a meet up spot, pump your tires etc. Just run more and run easy/natural. Incrementally add volume and your speed and economy improves. This coming from a former believer and a Boston Qualifier based on the FIRST (run less run fast) model....

you may recall the debate on the IMCDA thread kstater39. here is the barryP source link:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1612485;search_string=runtraining;#1612485

Here ya go.  The most important stuff is in the first three links.

Read those first three links he gives you and then the plan should make sense.

So a few questions or things to address or question...

Captain:

1) within the BarryP plan (which I think Dollar addressed, sort of) is that it is NOT built around a 10% weekly increase in mileage. You hold the same mileage for anywhere between 3-6, heck maybe 8 weeks, depending on build period leading up to your race. It allows your body to adjust to the increase in mileage and getting comfortable there before making a leap to the next step.

Harvey:

1) I will make the argument that WE have THIS same exact argument every few months.

2) The reason you do not think the BarryP method cannot apply to swimming is because you have yet to dedicate the time to do so. However as Rocketman said, if you do the same motion in high repetition (weather it's swimming stroke, bike pedal stroke, or running steps) you gain valuable muscle memory and strength/endurance gains within that sport.

3) It's all about energy conservation... you get out of the water putting in a hard effort but keeping some juice for the bike/run. You bike super hard but at a controlled effort which will save some juice for the run. Then getting out on the run and seeing what you have left in the tank. But if you are spending a bunch of unnecessary energy in the swim it WILL effect your run pacing in a negative manner. If you put a little extra effort into the swim portion of the race you will be able to get through the swim in A) a faster time or B) similar times but you've expended far less energy which will allow you to push a higher wattage on the bike and run a faster pace on the run.

4) I will agree that it is SOOOOOO much easier to just run out of your house or on a treadmill (if you have one at home) than it is to drive your to the pool. And I recognize that it's easier for me to swim more often because I take advantage of Dynamo and feed off of the energy of that swim crew in the AM. But I also realize the gains that can be made in my swim (you too) so I dedicate the time and effort to become faster and more efficient there.

ahhh I think that's all for now? Hit back with questions or comments. No attacks here, just different things to think about and try to understand/process. Oh and my apologizes for being late to the party!

Shanks

Shanks...not sure why you think that...straight from BarryP's post from the "building volume phase"...

Why would his Phatness not work on form so that he will use less energy in the water? 

I would think form first and then train your muscles to that form.

You are correct to a degree Doug. Swimming is a bit more technical than biking or running (although I would argue that it is harder to have "perfect" run form than it is to have "perfect" swim form).

The FITT principle encompasses the 4 tenants of training:

Frequency-The more often you do a certain activity the better you are going to be at that particular activity.

Intensity-If you train at the same intensity all of the time then your body will eventually plateau and you will quit getting better.

Time-The duration of your workouts matter. How long or how short will impact your adaptations.

Type-If you are training for a marathon then doing seven 5 mile runs a week probably isn't going to cut it. This is where the specificity of training comes into the plan.

The reason that the Barry P method works for most people is that they don't have that large mileage base to draw from so the frequent running produces a training adaptation. For someone who was a high mileage runner through HS and college this program would probably not work.

Captain: I appreciate you bringing this quote into the mix as it brings up a separate thought. And I apologize as I number things to try and separate thoughts... it's one of those odd things I do.

1) It had been about a year since I read the article and only recall things that stood out to me at the time.
2) I find it kind of funny that from the same quote, we got 2 different meanings by focusing on 2 different parts of the quote. Again no fault of our own, just an observation.
3) You focused on the "Add no more than 10% from one week to the next" as I focused on the "many weeks should be repeated with NO increase in mileage at all".

So in turn we're both correct in a way. It all depends on when your race is, if you have more time then you can spend a few weeks at a particular mileage before taking a jump up in mileage, if you have less time then obv you'll have to make quicker leaps. And realize that they are not all going to be perfect sets of each other, i.e. 3/6/9 or 4/8/12, there will be some odd weeks of 4/7/11 to get the desired weekly mileage.

Overall it's a solid frequency plan that will help you out for sure! Please keep us updated on the progress! And for the data geeks include some pace/hr/mileage stuff, assuming there will be a repeatable route you do so you can compare the above numbers.

Do work!
Shanks

Rocketman: Solid post in response to the above.

Brown Dog: So depending on who you ask you'll get different responses to that question. True working on form is quite important, but that is something you can work on by incorporating drills into the warm up and having additional one-on-one sessions with an awesome swim instructor. Then it's up to the Athlete to continue thinking about their form during the main set and perhaps toss in some more drills when tired (near the end of the set) to have them refocus on their form if it's gone to crap.

Sutton did an interview on IM Talk on 12/13 and 12/20 of 2010 (It's a Podcast, check it out!) where (again if I'm recalling correctly) he wasn't really concerned about an athletes form in the water and while running. Something along the lines of why waste a bunch of time in order to change the way they run and have to build them back up again from that? Basically just make them efficient with the form they have. I believe it was along the basis of instead of wasting time trying to find the "perfect form" you just need to do the work! Consistency and Frequency being the biggest parts of what Sutton does.

Again the above is from memory of almost a year ago so don't hold me to liable for it :-) just listen to the interview for yourself! (Just fast forward to the interview and cut out the chatter in the beginning).

Shanks

Thanks for the info shanks.

I see your point, but wonder if a swimmer needs to get their swim form to a certain spot before it comes down to volume.  I'm not a very good swimmer, but I worked on my form this year and was surprised how much easier I moved through the water.  I never upped the volume, so I didn't really get faster.  Maybe I got a little faster, but you get the point.  I was really surprised by the results, and it has me thinking.  Probably too much. 

Just to throw in my extra two cents....

For me this was week 4 of running a slight modification of the BarryP program.  Those who know me well, know that I am VERY injury prone.  And it is all running based injuries.  And these setbacks become very discouraging year after year.  FOR ME, my body responds well to two different concepts....frequency and intensity.  My body does NOT respond well to long runs.  It simply breaks down and breaks down hard after a certain point. 

Now there are a variety of reasons this happens, but after years of nagging injuries, I have nearly dropped long running from my training (for the beginners, I define long runs as 60 minutes or more).  My body doesn't handle it well and it takes days, sometimes 2 weeks for me to bounce back.  Obviously this makes long course racing difficult (I only did 2 olympics this year).  But with increased frequency, I can find the right medium. 

So part of my resolve this offseason is to regain my long run.  I KNOW it is my biggest limiter to improving my run.  So I started out with weeks 1-2 on a timed based schedule 20/40/20/40/20/60/Off.  Weeks 3-4, I switched to a mileage based schedule 2.5/5/2.5/5/2.5/7.5/Off  This added a small additional amount of volume to stress me.   I used VDOT to determine my Long Run, Recovery Run and Easy Run paces.  And I generally stick to them (unless I am running faster based on a lower RPE).  I KNOW I can easily run faster, but I have faith in the program of slowly building the mileage will yield faster times in the future. 

What I can report is that this week, I ran 4 total hours.  I have run 4 total hours ONCE in the past 12 months.  And that volume was  4 hours & 23 seconds.  I finished up my easy 2.5 mile run this morning and my legs feel really good.  I had no idea that I hit a 12 month peak in terms of volume.  While it is still early, I define this as a success.  

I don't know how long I will stick with the program (not 6 months)....and I will certainly deviate from time to time.  The goal I set for myself was that by the end of the off-season is that I would like to safely (injury free) run a week of 30/60/30/60/30/90/off.  That is 5 hours of running or about 38-40 miles a week.  For ME....that would be HUGE. 

I do anticipate my race times to go down as a result.  Last offseason, when I did 50 in 50, I didn't do much tempo work and my 5k time still went down.  I suspect the same thing will happen this season. 

Feel free to look at my logs if you want to follow how the program is working (or not working) for me. 

The aspect of the swim parallel to BarryP that doesn't add up in my mind is exactly what Brown dog and I think Rocketman allude to is that form does need to precede volume in swim training. I swim more yards than mostly everyone apart from the Dynamos and Shanks still complains that I don't swim enough AND my swim stagnates (well it did until i finally got a lesson from Jason Overbaugh).

Lets face it, the more I swim the better but the more I swim better the even better. In run, with this program and high volume low intensity programs, you get faster, more confident, and more economical as a byproduct of the program. Its crazy how it works.

I think it was Dave Scott or someone I read recently said (paraphrasing) "you can try and get more bang for your buck (high intensity/low vol) or you can get more money in the bank to spend. Which would you prefer?" Matt Rose just blogged in his KONA reports that Zone 2 (endurance)  training is the backbone of long course training.You need to do lots and devote your time to what pays off most!

I can see that I would get more money to spend with swimming but will the reward justify the investment? With bike and run training, I know they do. With swim, I just am not sure.  And that is why I am not a well balanced triathlete but a competitive regular Joe nonetheless.