Swim Drills Breathing Every 4+ Strokes

I admit to a shameless bump because I've now seen FOUR more mentions of such drills around the boards since this thread died ...

and guess what, so do some people who do them.

To (also shamelessly) steal the first post from the (below-linked) thread, which you should read all of if you can:

"People have died doing these drills. There is no physiologic benefit from doing them ... If you want to swim uninterupted without worrying about breathing, use a snorkel ...

A far, far better solution is to have someone work with you to learn how to breath properly. The number of strokes you take per breath is irrelevant. There is no right number. YOU need what you need. The body's need for oxygen consumption and getting rid of carbon dioxide is dependent upon how much energy you are using and in what form you are using it (aerobic/anaerbic, etc). When I start my swim warmup, I will frequently swim 7 to 9 strokes without breathing only because I am swimming smoothly, I have not gotten my oxygen consumption up by working hard, I am not generating a lot of waste products due to the low effort. When I have the urge to breath, I breath. When I am doing long endurance sprints, I may breath every 2 strokes. When I am rested and doing a single 25 yard sprint, yes, I can do it with no breaths. But not because I am forcing myself to do it. It is because 15-20 seconds of maximum effort requires little oxygen.

A novice swimmmer who uses all the energy they have just to stay on the surface of the water will need to breath every stroke because of the amount of energy they are using."

Amen.

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=64082&start=1

x3.

I've done them personally when prescribed by coaches in the past, but never have my athletes do them.  Too much risk with too little reward.

Yanti could you elaborate on the negative affect on swim stroke?  I naturally breath every 4 (every other right, generally) and feel like my stroke in between breaths is more efficient than the one when I breathe. (Of course I'm sure this is a technique problem). 

Also, i've read opinions about exhaling all of the CO2 underwater and don't normally do that in a 2 stroke breathing pattern. Maybe i'm not working hard enough? i.e. more SPM?

I'm not an expert in this area but based on my own experience breathing every 4 strokes all the time is just intentionally making yourself slower overall.  I agree that your stroke when not breathing is probably more efficient, but the relaxed pace you'd have to hold to not go into oxygen deficit would more than offset the benefits.

When I'm swimming at my race pace I'm breathing hard like I'm running the entire time and breathing every stroke on my right.  I'd have to go a lot slower to breath every fourth.

**edit

BTW, I totally agree with the Yanti on this.  

The problem with 4+ strokes/breath as a drill is if you're TRYING to do it. What I often see then (for example with 4) is sloppy-fast-slap STROKE STROKE STROKE and then suuuuper slooooowing dooooooown STROKE BREATHE ... in order to "make it through" between breaths, and then gasp in as much air as possible on the 4th stroke.

If you naturally breathe that way, no worries. I also suspect once you start pushing yourself hard in intervals--the kind of swim training where on the last couple repeats you're struggling to make the time, and which in fact is how most swim training should be done--you will find that you absolutely need to breathe every 2 strokes.

At this point in your swimming (since I'm a little familiar with where you're at) I would continue working on technique, but swap out about half the distance you're doing for a main set that looks (something) like 8x100 @2:30. The breathing will work itself out.

You don't have to fully breathe out (it's impossible to do so, anyway, and also ... just for reference, you're breathing out a mixture of CO2 and O2. Just somewhat more CO2 than the mix that went in). It helps some people to think of that, but unless your breathing is an issue ... again, don't worry about it.

It's when people have to put EFFORT into these drills, and new to intermediate swimmers are doing them, that is worrisome if not downright dangerous.

And some more random stuff ... your body rotation and stroke should look the same whether you're taking a breath or not. Granted, it slows people down (very little) to take a breath, but the overall stroke and rhythm should be unaffected.

I like doing breath control work. I never push it to the extreme though.

I have always felt that it has aided my progress towards becoming a more economical swimmer. Over all distances (50yd, 100yd, 200yd, 400yd, 1600yd, etc.,) I find that I am faster in the water when I breathe less. This isn't because breathing less is better, its because I obviously slow down when I rotate to breathe. I should also mention that breathing less and less and less will not continue to correlate with faster times over all distances. For each prescribed distance, there is probably a unique curve associated with each individuals ability at that distance when taking a breath every X strokes. The curve will increase, plateau, and then decrease with increasing X from about X = 1 to 9 (I like math). I believe each persons curve is not fixed for the duration of their life, and believe that you can use breath control drills to help change that curve, and increase performance for all X values. 

For myself, I can continue to improve 2 ways (when considering breathing alone, and assuming that I breathe in and out smoothly and not in short bursts) - 1. rotate to breathe in a more economical fashion, or 2. get more and more comfortable breathing less.

Each of these two ways will have their upper limit. Everyone has a certain lung capacity that they can tap into while swimming, and you can only rotate to breath and (at best) maintain your current velocity down the pool.

If you do reach a point in your swimming ability when you can maintain your speed perfectly when turning to breathe, then you can breathe all you want cause its not slowing you down! 

Now maybe I am wrong about there being benefits to breath control. If that is the case, then my answer is - I actually enjoy doing them. I like them in the same way that I enjoy holding an extremely difficult yoga pose.  

There are definite benefits to breath control (I did say it was an important skill). If you can comfortably breathe every X strokes (as comfortable as one can be swimming fast!), it's not a problem ... it's just that having athletes (especially newer swimmers) try and practice/train it by struggling to swim X strokes between each breath is usually counterproductive to sometimes, horrifyingly, fatal.

Not being alarmist or exaggerating here.

Also, you would be a very extreme exception in being able to swim long distances (400+) faster by breathing less frequently.

Interesting.. Sadly enough I hadn't thought about breathing more often to go faster.  I will gladly try your suggestions next time in the pool! 

Hope you are feeling better

Amen!  People think WAY too hard about breathing when swimming.

I just...breathe.

I think it's a useful skill to be able to breathe on both sides.  Worth learning.  However, I don't have a set pattern when I breathe!  The faster I go, the more I breathe!  If I'm going fast I'll often be breathing every 2 strokes.  But I can breathe from either side so I kind of tend to alternate...which means every now and then I'll breathe every three.  A typical 100 for me might so something like 2-2-2-2-3-2-2-2-2-3-2-2-2-2-2...etc. etc.

It's not rocket science.  If you need air, get it! :-)

I do use breathing every 3 strokes as a bit of a baseline.  Once I start needing to breath more than every three strokes I am working at a decent pace.  I can hold a pretty good long distance open water swim pace and breathe every 3 strokes.  To go any faster, I just need more air.

Yes ma'am ... to all of it.

.Works both ways for me; breathe more often to go faster, breathe less often to go slower. I use fewer breaths to make myself slow down for cool down sets.

oh this is interesting. It brings up an issue for me that I didnt know to ask about.

I am a pretty new swimmer and have beentrying to breath every 3 strokes when ever possible. I worry about developing or reinforcing a "favorite" side to breath on (I have one, I just dont want to compound the imbalance by giving in to it) but I have noticed that deeper in to interval sets or time trials that I can swim faster if I breathe every 2 strokes. I just need more air/fuel to keep me going.

Breathe when you need to. Keep practicing breathing (and your form overall) on your off-side until it becomes comfortable and smooth.

It's a good skill to have, and promotes a more balanced stroke, to be able to breathe on both sides. It's not necessary to do so by forcing yourself to breathe every 3rd stroke.

Beyond this, I don't think there's much else to be said.  Don't entirely agree with some of what's been said in this thread, but this really seems to be the main takeaway and is perfectly valid.

^Truth.

I especially appreciate this thread because I have posted one of the breathing threads in the past few weeks that I am sure you are referring to.

I'm a new swimmer, never competed, never had any formal coaching beyond a required semester of swimming in high school. To me, bilateral breathing was something swimmers "should" do and I practiced it although it made me uncomfortable in the water. Because if it's something we "should" do, of course we should practice it, right? You reassured me not to worry about breathing on both sides, as long as I could breathe on either side. I feel relieved by this, as in "Whew, one less thing I have to worry about."

This is why we have sites like this, to help us figure this stuff out. A lot of us are coming into this sport with little knowledge, figuring it out as we go. Something that seems like old hat to the veterans is still very confusing to us newbies -- especially swimming!!!

I do sincerely appreciate the advice you and all the other tri veterans give.

X2!!!  Sometimes when I'm swimming I feel like the scene in "Dirty Dancing" where she is trying to remember all of the teqnique for the dance (head up, eye contact, back straight, arms out........)

Thank you for bumping this.  I was in the pool last week and witnessed a woman who demonstrated everything that could go wrong with this.  

She decided to do the 3/5/7 technique...new swimmer, wants to compete in her first tri.  No coach, hasn't read anything but internet, etc.  Well needless to say she deprived herself of oxygen, sank under, and from what the lifeguard said passed out from lack of oxygen.   

This is exactly what I did.  I practiced on my off-side consistently and eventually the 3-stroke breathing pattern became very natural for me.  When I get a little gassed I wind up doing some thing like 3,2,2,3,2,2,3,3,3 to keep my oxygen level up, but only when needed.