Catholics - Why do you do that?

I was Catholic......Irish Catholic by heritage.  

Since you brought up the other thread, I'll answer a question that was asked there:

In light of the systematic abuse of children at the hands of Catholic priests and other officials, and the institutional denial and cover-up by the Catholic Church,  I no longer identify myself, in any way, with the Catholic Church.  I cannot, and will never be able to, connect myself or my beliefs with any organization that does not stand up and protect children above and beyond any tenant or benefit of the organization as a whole.  

As far as I'm concerned, the Catholic Church should no longer exist in any form.

In my late 30's and last Easter was confirmed Catholic.  Took the Catholic Rite of Initiation Classes all winter and was happy to join the Catholic Communion.  Didn't leave the Anglican Church per say, but considering the closest Anglican church is over 1/2 hour away and the Catholic is about 3 minutes....well..you get the idea.    

My questions...which our Priest was very passionate about but I never got a sufficient answer due to time constraints, and the class dynamics.....

1)What is it with praying to Saints.  The bible specifically says you don't get to God except through his Son.  Where is the basis for this?  Please don't tell me it's "just tradition."  Seriously...praying to dead people?  gimme some info. on this one.

2)Whats up with purgatory?  Nothing in the bible on this one I could find.  The two bible verses that were given to us on this seemed awfully vague and when read with respect to the entire chapter didn't seem to relate....  So...whats up with that?

Thanks dude.  You know...beginnertriathlete.com forum always amazes me....threads from guns, to catholics, to the economy....maybe it's me, but I don't see such a great range of topics even in off topic sections in other forums I subscribe too.

The abuse of children is just the small tip of the iceberg of the (what is called now), “crimes against  humanity”, the is associated with the Catholic church. 

I am not going to go into any history lesson here as it is just a Google click away, and I am not going to bash any persons personal beliefs, but I will say that I sure hope God is forgiving as everyone says he is.

I got wet eyes and goosebumps reading your post LB.  That's a very powerful statement. Thank you.

It's good to remember that not all doctrine or dogma can be found directly in the Bible.  For example, no where in the Bible does it say that the Bible alone is the final authority on doctrine, dogma, faith, and morals.  

No where in the Bible will you find the dogma of the trinity or the incarnation.

From the beginning of the Church it was understood that the authority for teachings rested with the Church herself.  This understanding we actually do find in the Bible in 1 Timothy 3:15:

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

It was also understood from the beginning that the authority within the Church for defining doctrine and dogma rested with the magisterium, the college of bishops, with the bishop of Rome being the head.

There was no agreed upon cannon of books of scripture until late in the 4th century. The magisterium, with the final authority of Pope Damasus, then defined the cannon of scripture that came to be called the Bible.  (Luther later changed the books included in the cannon, but maybe that's better left for the thread: Why to Protestants to that)

So for the first four hundred years of the Church, there was scripture but no Bible. It took the authority of the magisterium of the Church to define the books included in what we now call the Bible.

(I didn't answer your two questions yet.  I'll come back to them or maybe someone else will jump in. )

OK so one my questions was already asked (child abuse issues) but to be honest I've heard the answer before anyway.  The CC needs to clean house if they want to try to regain any respect IMHO.

Moving on... what's up with lack of birth control?  Seems like a VERY outdated belief. And one that VERY few Catholics follow.  So what has the church been so slow to change?

Finally, what's up with the Pope?  Why do you need a single person to "rule" the church?  What makes this person any more special then you or I.  I think by placing him on a pedestal you go against some of the very teachings of the Bible.  The very theory of "Papal Infallibility" seems to fly in the face of "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"

Unfortunately the Catholic Church doesn't have an exclusive on abusive behavior or organizational cover-ups.  I'm a life-long Presbyterian and have been an elder at my congregation for the past 25 years.  During that time we're removed two ordained pastors, one who was found to be a pedophile and most recently a senior pastor who was abusive and threatening to women.  In both cases we discovered after the fact that the Church heirarchy knew about, and had covered up these individuals' histories over the course of their careers.  Our General Presbyter (head of our region) even admitted to me at one point that the Church's priority was to protect and counsel the ordained pastors, rather than looking after the welfare of the congregation they were serving.   

The Catholic Church may get more headlines, but abuses are going on elsewhere too.  One advantage our Presbyterian denomination has is the local congregation has the automomy to both hire and fire ordained staff.   

Mark

Kim Rhode is a five time Olympic clay shooting champion. She just won a gold medal at London in Skeet. Her first medal was gold at Atlanta.  I think she's the only American Olympian to win a medal in five consecutive games. She recently said that the first question she's asked these days when she speaks is what she thinks about Newtown.

I guess it's human nature.

I have someone very close to me who was sexually abused as a child.  It was by a member of a Protestant denomination who was a known perpetrator and was shuttled around by church elders.  

We watched Les Miserables this past weekend.  One of Jean Valjean's early moral discernments is whether to save his soul or the livelihood of the hundred who worked for him.  Maybe that's what was going on with the elders of the church my survivor belonged to.  Hard to say.

My survivor.

For several years now, I've been a member of a peer support group of those who ourselves support survivors of childhood sexual abuse.  I've learned more about the long term effects of sexual abuse than I ever cared to know.  I understand now that with rare exceptions, survivors of childhood sexual abuse can never really fully recover from their wounds.  They are too deep and they happen at a time when brain development can be organically affected.  The best strategy I believe now is for survivors to learn to manage their very real disability.

I deal in a very real way with the legacy of childhood sexual abuse every day of my life.  It is a life long wound that can have bitter effects to the seventh generation.

My middle child was being baptized when the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church first surfaced.  I was living a life of objective sin, and doing so happily.  Or so I thought. There was  always something tugging at my conscience.

This was all fine more or less since I belonged to a very liberal parish. Call it the "Parish of what's happening now." I remember other parents bringing their children for baptism.  They were also happily living in objective sin.  They were also vehemently criticizing the Church and her leaders.

I thought, "You know what? something is off here. How can I criticize the bishops for what they've done when I myself glibly refuse to follow Church teaching?"

So instead of putting energy toward criticizing the Church, I set about cleaning up my own sins. I'm still working on it.

Don, in regards to the church being the authority for teachings. Why was this originally set up in this manner? I'm sure even a few thousand years ago everyone knew that that kind of power can go to someone's head. This would leave the sole authority for interpreting God's will open to corruption. I don't think it's a stretch to say that we have in fact seen that during the history of the church (think Indulgences).

I send my kids to catholic school and it is to get a good base in the principles of our religion.  This is not exclusive to catholic religion, but to me there are some great lessons in honesty, trust, belief, morals, etc that go hand in hand with the teachings and study of religion.   That doesn't mean you cant teach those things otherwise, it is just the reason I chose.  

Gotta look to Jesus for that one.

Jesus says in Matthew 16:18-19

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” 

This is an echo of Isaiah and would have been understood as such.  From Isaiah 22:20-22

On that day I will summon my servant
Eliakim, son of Hilkiah;
I will clothe him with your robe,
gird him with your sash,
confer on him your authority.
He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem,
and to the house of Judah.
I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder;
what he opens, no one will shut,
what he shuts, no one will open.

In Isaiah, Eliakim holds the key to the kingdom as a minister to the king, not as the key's owner. In a sense, Eliakim is the prime minister.

Jesus' words to Peter would not have been lost on the other disciples.  Jesus was referencing Isaiah. Peter is Eliakim, the prime minister holding the key for Jesus the king.

Think of it in just a practical sense. Why would Jesus leave the Church without some sort of authoritative structure?  We know historically that authority wasn't the Bible. The Bible as we know it didn't exist.

What did exist in the early Church was the magisterium; the prime minister and the other ministers, the bishops.

... this went the predicatable route faster than I expected.  I think I'll be avoiding this thread.

I had the same thought.

I always enjoy your posts about religion and the Catholic Church......it is obvious you put alot of time and thought into your religious beliefs.

I have seen the destruction firsthand as well, and then I had the unfortunate circumstance to investigate some of the crimes on a professional level.  The behavior involved in the denial and attempted coverup sickened me worse then the actual acts committed by individuals.

Personal sin or not, I'm done with that bunch.

Question-I'm confused, are you making these statements as someone who IS a survivor or supporting someone who is a survivor?

There is one Universal Church, itself comprised of human persons alive in three states:

• Those in heaven
• Those still striving on earth
• Those in purgatory

Human persons in heaven we call saints.  

Christians ask each other all the time to pray for them.  It happens here on BT on a regular basis.  So Christians seem to have a universal understanding that it is a good thing to ask for intercession from another or to intercede for them.

In the old meaning of the english word, we pray to each other when we do this: "Pray, please beg God on my behalf that I might be healed of this illness."

Does that make sense?

We know from scripture that the saints in heaven pray. Revelation 5:8:

When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down
before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and golden bowls full of incense,
which are the prayers of the holy ones.

Why would the saints pray?  They are already enjoying the beatific vision and have no need of anything, yet they intercede in prayer for someone.

Yes, we ask each other to pray for us, to intercede on our behalf. That is a good thing. Who better to intercede for us than one who already enjoys the beatific vision of God, the holy ones in heaven?  

(I know I didn't answer your second question yet. )

Supporting a survivor.  I wish to keep them confidential.

I went clay busting with one of my sons over the weekend. He's got potential to be great.
Me, I'm hopeless.

I don't think praying to the saints is strictly a Catholic thing, as Eastern Orthodox religions do this too.

In the Apostles' Creed, Catholics state that they believe in the "communion of saints", which includes (but is not limited to) those in heaven.

We ask the saints to hear our prayers and use their influence w/God to intercede on our behalf. It's not that we aren't praying to God - but we are praying to God and also the saints.

In the other thread, some people pointed out that Catholics might not interpret the Bible as literally as those in other faiths, which I support in my view, and as a Catholic, bc I wouldn't say that the Bible "specifically" says you don't get to God except through Jesus.

Nvm.  I'm just going to sit this one out.

That's a great way to spend an afternoon.  I have found that kids are frequently good shooters right out of the gate.......and then the bad habits creep in as they don't practice (like the rest of us).  If he's got the eye, keep him going!

The systemic, institutional cover-up happens in all denominations?

True, it happens in ALL walks of life.  But in this case, the abuse was systematic and the coverup was a matter of practice.  The Cathlolic Church has itself to blame.  Period.

I hate that it happened.....but I can't be associated with it, my conscience won't allow it.