swimming - path of the stroke question

Your hand should enter the water in about a straight line forward from your shoulder and from that point should not deviate at all from that path.  It goes DOWN into the water but not out to the sides at all.

Hand enters, glide, pull starts by you pressing the hand down while keeping the elbow high.  (Think of pulling over a barrel.)  IF your elbow drops you lose power.  At chest level your hand elbow and shoulder should be pretty much forming a 90 degree angle.  Then push straight back to the hip.

You're trying to push the same piece of water.  Another way I've heard it described is that your hand is "anchored" on the water and you move your body past your hand.

The S-shape seen in swim videos is NOT formed by the person waving their hand around under water, it's formed by the rotation of your body past your hand.  Something I had to totally relearn, and if I can save someone else the pain...

Ok, I'm not trying to be difficult, but one of you says don't push straight down and the other says push straight down.  I have a feeling you both mean the same thing, I'm just not understanding it. 

The video looks like it will be a lot of help, I can't watch the whole thing until later, though.  Thanks, Grant. 

Ok, with the 'high-elbow' idea, where do your elbows go?  I feel like such an idiot, but if my hand enters in line with my shoulder, and my body rotates for the glide part, I can't figure out the phsyics of where my elbow goes when I start my pull.  There's just no place for it to stay "high."  High in relation to what?  If I was to lay flat on my stomach with no rotation, I could understand 'high', but when I'm laying on my side in the water I just can't make my joints bend to keep my hand under my elbow. 

Does this make any sense at all? 

I don't think your elbows "go" anywhere.  They stay "high" while you drop your hand and forearm, creating your "paddle" for the pull.

Edit: And ditto what ABear says.  I think high elbows in the recovery may help set up other elements of your stroke better, but doesn't have any impact to your speed through the water in and of itself.

The OP in this thread didn't ask for advice on their recovery.  Yet!  Doesn't mean I don't need it!

One step at a time.   And thanks, everyone, for all the great advice.  And I agree AB - I was hoping I wouldn't get a bunch of "You should read TI" posts.  Not bagging on TI, just that I want to hear personal descriptions from people I know and trust.  If they learned it from TI that's fine with me.  Whatever, as long as it helps me keep up with Schmize get faster.

I sooooo wish someone had made that clear when I was first learning to swim. I've been making big swooshy S's for years.  Now I'm trying to UN-learn that.  Grrr. 

Nice video, but now I'm confused about my entry... I swear it looks like he's just slapping his hand down into the water, rather than really entering forward... am I seeing it wrong? 

I kind of thought the same thing, but then I realized he's going so dang fast that must be what it looks like when a real swimmer does it.  Maybe the way I/we do it now will evolve closer to that as we pick up speed.  I now when I sprint it looks more like that but I can only keep it up for a lap or two.

Sorry, see some confusion here in what I said.

I did not mean DOWN as towards the bottom of the pool, but down as in bring your hand down to the 90 degree angle. THEN you push back towards your hip.(best way I think of it - reaching over the top of a barrel and pulling it towards me, under me, and behind me while using only my palm.)

The stroke movement is basically the same if you stand straight with your arms straight over your head.  Now, bring your hands down so that from your left elbow across your shoulders to your right elbow forms a STRAIGHT line, while your elbow has a 90 degree bend in it so that your hands are pointing directly away from you, at shoulder height.  (I did practice doing this at home quite a bit when I was trying to unlearn the stupid wave my hand in an S-shape habit.  Easier to figure out what was going on w/out the water in the way.)

IN THE WATER, if you are pulling with your right hand you will be rotating ONTO your left side.  This hand/arm movement in conjuction with the rotation is what forms the S-shape. 

Keeping your elbow high means that while your elbow will have a bend in it, because it is more efficient, your elbow should always remain closer to the surface than your hand is.  Your hand/forearm is what creates the propulsive power of the stroke.  You always want to be pushing the water with both your hand/forearm, not letting the water just slide by.

As far as stroke entry - if you are watching someone swim fast, the stroke entry is GOING to splash, because once you start picking up speed you can't slow down enough to enter smoothly while keeping up the pace.  However, the hand should pretty much enter at the fingertips and then you should see at least a bit of extension/glide of the forward hand near the top of the water.  This glide is what cuts the water resistance for the stroke you are finishing up with the other hand.  Instead of your HEAD (a large surface - much water resistance) leading, your hand (smaller - less water resistance) should be leading when you are finishing up the stroke on the other side.

Actually, you can SEE this on the video.  Watch him enter the water with one hand, and you'll see his hand is still UNDER the water and stretching forward as the other hand is finishing up, and this is where he gets the power out of his stroke.  The END of the stroke (and the glide) is the most important phase for generating power while cutting as much resistance as possible.

You might be keeping your elbow a little TOO high.  The main point is that your hand/forearm should be below your elbow, and that's where you should be pushing the water from.  The last part of the stroke is basically like a triceps press down, and if you're doing it right, you should feel it through the back of your arm.

Watch that video again focusing on where his elbow is through the stroke.

I'd say that you've improved something though - if you felt more efficient and less tired.  Were you faster?  Best idea, see if you can get someone who you think is good to check your form on a couple of laps.  Probably easiest way to get real feedback.  Through here is difficult since it's hard to see what you're actually doing.