Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED (Page 100)

1.  I may be wrong, but isn't the point of using power to move away from the vagaries of HR based on temps, fatigue, etc?  Or are they tied together?   I don't use HR on the CT since I am following the watts solely.

2.  I agree.  Great for Wiggins and British cycling.  Bad for TV.  Remember the days of massive and continual attacks (not A Schleck's timid little accelerations with a look over the should to see who was breaking... no one)?  I think that Wiggins should have let Froome go for the stage win.  Even LA threw Hincapie a bone.

1.  I actually use HR in conjunction with the PM for the very reasons you listed.  Hot conditions, something not right with the body, etc., the PM doesn't care - it just shows you the watts.  HR for me, on the bike, is a secondary indicator.  yes, I should be pushing 210watts right now - no, my HR should not be 175.  Essentially, I'm using it as a governor.  I'm sure lots of people would argue that you should go by RPE as a secondary indicator(which I suck at), but I find that RPE is masked a little more on the bike than it is on the run.  Sometimes you need to dial the watts back a bit, based on HR - IMO.

So my question was just to get a sense of where others tend to see their HR zones in correlation to their FTP %.  Just to get more data points to compare against my own.

2.  At least the tour has Voeckler - that guy puts on a hell of a show.  Pretty cool he rode two days ago with no computer, no HR, and no race radio!

So, if the workout was 2 x 20 at 210, you'd lower the 210 depending on your HR?  Or raise it?  Just trying to get what you're saying.   I can see how it might be interesting information to know, but not how you'd let it affect or change your planned workout?

And yeah, I like TV too!    I especially like the way Phil pronounces his last name Voiclueeeeerrrrr

For a shorter trainer ride, or harder Sprint race effort I will typically ignore HR - so I'll stick to the watts, unless I really feel I can't hold it, but will record the HR data so I can review it during and/or after.  If the HR is low for a trainer session, then I'll try and push a bit harder.  For a longer race like HIM (never done a full), then I feel HR has some beneficial feedback during the race. 

i.e.  I know my HR is going to be elevated coming out of transition, and will likely remain that way for the next 15-20min or so.  But if after a longer period of time, say 45-60min, my HR is still higher than where I expect it to be, then I likely need to dial back the effort a bit because my body may be off.  If HR is lower, I won't try and push more watts during the race.

For my original question, I'm just really curious how people's HR zones tie to their FTP, because I tend to find that my HR is lower than what I might expect for harder intervals, or it may be that the intervals are just not long enough to really get the HR to where it should/could be.  Hence the curiosity.

I think this is where there really are two different ways of training.  This thought that you want to hit a certain power and do everything you can to hit that number no matter how you feel is confusing to me.  I equate it to using pace on the run.  So say you normally run a 7min mile in 80F temps and say 40% humidiyt, but it is 100F and 90% humidity.  Do you still go for that pace?  HR monitoring handles this as you slow down cause the conditions dictate it.  If you went by pace alone would you not be over taxing your body?

I do not use a power meter (cause I cannot talk anyone into buying one for me) but if I did I think I would approach it like Neil does.  I would want to chase a number, but only if conditions allow it, which my HR would tell me. 

I don't know, it's all so confusing. 

Interesting disucssion.  I am a piker when it comes to using HR and power, etc.

I guess it also has to do with the way a CT, for example, is set up.  For lack of better description, you can set it up so you push the watts, i.e., you ride, the CT records your actual watts, and you try to hold it at 200 or whatever.  The other way is force the watts to push you, i.e., you set the CT to 200 watts and you either ride 200 watts or you stop.  In fact, if you slow down, it just makes it worse as it forces you to put out 200 watts, and the higher your cadence the easier that will be....

these latter workouts are typically based on the percentages you should be able to hold.  And yeah, you try to hold them no matter what - you ran this morning, it's hot out, didn't eat enough, etc.  will all affect it. 

ETA - CT workouts are theoretically more controlled, i.e., temperature, fans etc and are less outside factor dependent, although temps certainly do affect them

I haven't used power in a race, so wouldn't know what to do with it there, and haven't used HR in a race since 2009.

I train primarily with power.  I shoot for a goal, and if I blow up during training...so be it.  No big deal.

When racing though, I use power, HR, and RPE.  As Neil mentioned, sometimes your body is off.  Sometimes the weather is so hot or humid that you can't push the watts that you could on other days.

For my last 40k TT, which was a hair over an hour, my avg HR was 181, but my RPE was just about right.  I noticed that my HR was quite high for the watts I was shooting (I was expecting about 175), but my RPE was ok, so I didn't back off just based on HR.

That is a good day in the hills.  Nice job.

I am NOT going to do that tomorrow...

Thanks for all the inspires and PMs - I cannot respond too well as the phone network seems pretty overwhelmed here, but I really do appreciate it. I got to spend some time with James this morning - it was really great to meet. Happy to have him out on the swim course watching over us. We got signed up for next year, and James is signing up on Monday. Anyone up for a Fred D's Mentor Group meetup at 2013 IMLP????   

Fred D - 2012-07-21 4:23 PM

TankBoy - 2012-07-21 6:53 PM Chris, Jason and Goose you guys are killing it on the bike - looks like you guys have been taking Rudy's advice WAY too seriously.

I am NOT going to do that tomorrow...

Thanks for all the inspires and PMs - I cannot respond too well as the phone network seems pretty overwhelmed here, but I really do appreciate it. I got to spend some time with James this morning - it was really great to meet. Happy to have him out on the swim course watching over us. We got signed up for next year, and James is signing up on Monday. Anyone up for a Fred D's Mentor Group meetup at 2013 IMLP????   

Now that is truly tempting, but I promised my wife a break from IM

Best of luck tomorrow Rusty!

LP is on my "someday" list but I jumped at the chance for Lake Tahoe next year.

Fred D - 2012-07-21 5:54 PM

spudone - 2012-07-21 7:54 PM

Fred D - 2012-07-21 4:23 PM

TankBoy - 2012-07-21 6:53 PM Chris, Jason and Goose you guys are killing it on the bike - looks like you guys have been taking Rudy's advice WAY too seriously.

I am NOT going to do that tomorrow...

Thanks for all the inspires and PMs - I cannot respond too well as the phone network seems pretty overwhelmed here, but I really do appreciate it. I got to spend some time with James this morning - it was really great to meet. Happy to have him out on the swim course watching over us. We got signed up for next year, and James is signing up on Monday. Anyone up for a Fred D's Mentor Group meetup at 2013 IMLP????   

Now that is truly tempting, but I promised my wife a break from IM

Best of luck tomorrow Rusty!

LP is on my "someday" list but I jumped at the chance for Lake Tahoe next year.

. After just spending a week in California I am very envious of those who live out there in that environment. Lake Tahoe strikes me as a really great site. Worried about altitude?

Not too much.  It's something to figure into pacing though.  It probably won't be super hot out, so that'll offset it somewhat.

I saw a chart awhile back that gave you an FTP multiplier based on your race altitude versus where you train.  I need to dig it up again.  For example, my "effective" FTP at 6000 feet might be around 90% of normal, since I train at sea level.

Also interesting, if you look over on analyticcyling.com there's a field for "Air Density" and some examples based on altitude.  So on flat / downhill, that translates to reduced drag.  It'll be interesting to see how that balances out with the reduced power output.

spudone - 2012-07-21 3:10 PM

Fred D - 2012-07-21 5:54 PM

spudone - 2012-07-21 7:54 PM

Fred D - 2012-07-21 4:23 PM

TankBoy - 2012-07-21 6:53 PM Chris, Jason and Goose you guys are killing it on the bike - looks like you guys have been taking Rudy's advice WAY too seriously.

I am NOT going to do that tomorrow...

Thanks for all the inspires and PMs - I cannot respond too well as the phone network seems pretty overwhelmed here, but I really do appreciate it. I got to spend some time with James this morning - it was really great to meet. Happy to have him out on the swim course watching over us. We got signed up for next year, and James is signing up on Monday. Anyone up for a Fred D's Mentor Group meetup at 2013 IMLP????   

Now that is truly tempting, but I promised my wife a break from IM

Best of luck tomorrow Rusty!

LP is on my "someday" list but I jumped at the chance for Lake Tahoe next year.

. After just spending a week in California I am very envious of those who live out there in that environment. Lake Tahoe strikes me as a really great site. Worried about altitude?

Not too much.  It's something to figure into pacing though.  It probably won't be super hot out, so that'll offset it somewhat.

I saw a chart awhile back that gave you an FTP multiplier based on your race altitude versus where you train.  I need to dig it up again.  For example, my "effective" FTP at 6000 feet might be around 90% of normal, since I train at sea level.

 

Also interesting, if you look over on analyticcyling.com there's a field for "Air Density" and some examples based on altitude.  So on flat / downhill, that translates to reduced drag.  It'll be interesting to see how that balances out with the reduced power output.

Very interesting.  I know that I have listened in on some discussions about time trials (pro and amateur).  When people were discussing some of the times being thrown down...some of the comments were along the lines of..."he went that fast?  The race must have been at altitude, there is no way you can do that at sea level"..."yeah, it was in colorado".

So I assume if you can train at altitude, or aclimate to it, then there are benefits.  And if you can't, maybe it's a wash???

Hey group !

Been MIA for 2 weeks. I went on vacation, then when I got back work got the better of me. So work forced a taper, which was good.

Raced a HIM today, officially labeled Canadian Long Distance championships. Tough course. Swim was long, not wetsuit or skinsuit. Bike was hilly. Run was hot. But I was happy with the result.

On the skinsuit thing, apparently ITU rules are you cannot remove a piece of clothing. So if you start with a skinsuit, you were it on the bike and run.

I need to catch up on everything that has happened. I promise not to reply to a 2 week old post :-)

nice, he's rocking it.