BT Development Mentor Program Archives » Fred D Mentor Group Part III Rss Feed  
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2012-12-13 7:57 PM
in reply to: #4534546

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Payson, AZ
Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
tri808 - 2012-12-13 5:33 PM

For those of you who were not born fish...have you actively had to work on ankle flexibility to help your swimming?  My ankle flexibility is horrible, and something I always plan on improving, but for some reason never do.  I've looked online and found some simple stretches...but it never seems to come up in any discussions.  Is it that people do them and just don't talk about it...or am I just an outlier in the population because I can't kick to save my life?

If you have done these type of stretches, how often are you doing them, and how long did it take you to see a noticeable difference? 

I am blessed with good flexibility and a pretty good kick (rest of my swim on the other hand...).  So i do not stretch per say but I frequently sit on my feet but just cause that's the way I like to sit. 



2012-12-13 8:03 PM
in reply to: #4534623

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
axteraa - 2012-12-13 3:52 PM

tri808 - 2012-12-13 9:21 PM Also, I've been using Zip fins.  Are the Zoomers any better at helping ankle flexibility.  I don't really feel that the Zip fins help...they help with propulsion becuase their longer...but I don't really feel the stretch that much.

If I remember correctly, TJ always recommends the longer fins and not Zoomers for ankle flexibility.

Your kick problems almost sound like it's a problem with your kick technique rather than just the ankles.  This post on TJ's website completely changed how I think about the kick - the soccer kick analogy really struck me and I'm a better kicker now than I ever was when I swam.   He also says not zoomers on there.

Thanks for the link.  I can't say my technique is "good", but I do try to kick from the hips like the soccer kick, but it's just my toes are pointed downwards and looks nothing like those pictures.

So if TJ says I need to sit on my feet and do more kick sets with fins...so be it.

2012-12-13 8:09 PM
in reply to: #4534631

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
bzgl40 - 2012-12-13 3:57 PM
tri808 - 2012-12-13 5:33 PM

For those of you who were not born fish...have you actively had to work on ankle flexibility to help your swimming?  My ankle flexibility is horrible, and something I always plan on improving, but for some reason never do.  I've looked online and found some simple stretches...but it never seems to come up in any discussions.  Is it that people do them and just don't talk about it...or am I just an outlier in the population because I can't kick to save my life?

If you have done these type of stretches, how often are you doing them, and how long did it take you to see a noticeable difference? 

I am blessed with good flexibility and a pretty good kick (rest of my swim on the other hand...).  So i do not stretch per say but I frequently sit on my feet but just cause that's the way I like to sit. 

My GF sits like that too.  She swam in HS...not that fast, but swam none the less.  She's no help to me though.  When she's not laughing, she just tells me to kick harder.



Edited by tri808 2012-12-13 8:09 PM
2012-12-13 8:15 PM
in reply to: #4534546

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

tri808 - 2012-12-13 6:33 PM

For those of you who were not born fish...have you actively had to work on ankle flexibility to help your swimming?  My ankle flexibility is horrible, and something I always plan on improving, but for some reason never do.  I've looked online and found some simple stretches...but it never seems to come up in any discussions.  Is it that people do them and just don't talk about it...or am I just an outlier in the population because I can't kick to save my life?

If you have done these type of stretches, how often are you doing them, and how long did it take you to see a noticeable difference? 

I do actively work on ankle flexibility. I don't know if it has made a difference in my swimming yet; I have a plenty of other swim issues that are probably more important for my swim improvement. But I think my ankles are getting more flexible. I probably do them every other day or so. I have been active about it for the past year, and just this month realized that I am a little more flexible.

ETA- Like you, during any kick sets I do, I don't move forward. At least I don't go backwards, I guess.

Edited by KansasMom 2012-12-13 8:27 PM
2012-12-13 8:21 PM
in reply to: #4534571

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

 

kcarroll - 2012-12-13 6:59 PM

Jason, my kick is also weak/non-existant. I grew up riding horses which incorporates a leg/foot position of heels down/toes up. My ankle flexibility is good but 180° in the wrong direction. The masters coach had suggested trying to stretch the front of the foot/ankle but I've never really done anything about it. Her recommendation was to sit on the floor, knees bent and toes pointed behind you. 

Would love to hear more from the Fish on kick....and not just from a tri perspective. I'm also trying to learn dolphin kick, which so far has mostly been an exercise in not drowning. 

I love fly and dolphin. But one day while doing it in my extremely hideous way, my 12 year old came swimming to me, grabbed me, and dragged me to the edge of the pool saying, "It's okay, mama. I'll save you. I've got you." What a joker.




Edited by KansasMom 2012-12-13 8:29 PM
2012-12-13 8:44 PM
in reply to: #4534637

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
tri808 - 2012-12-13 8:03 PM
axteraa - 2012-12-13 3:52 PM

tri808 - 2012-12-13 9:21 PM Also, I've been using Zip fins.  Are the Zoomers any better at helping ankle flexibility.  I don't really feel that the Zip fins help...they help with propulsion becuase their longer...but I don't really feel the stretch that much.

If I remember correctly, TJ always recommends the longer fins and not Zoomers for ankle flexibility.

Your kick problems almost sound like it's a problem with your kick technique rather than just the ankles.  This post on TJ's website completely changed how I think about the kick - the soccer kick analogy really struck me and I'm a better kicker now than I ever was when I swam.   He also says not zoomers on there.

Thanks for the link.  I can't say my technique is "good", but I do try to kick from the hips like the soccer kick, but it's just my toes are pointed downwards and looks nothing like those pictures.

So if TJ says I need to sit on my feet and do more kick sets with fins...so be it.

Yes, I was thinking of that link as well.

The soccer style description is actually throwing me off. I played quite a bit too.



2012-12-14 5:08 AM
in reply to: #4534665

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Payson, AZ
Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
KansasMom - 2012-12-13 7:21 PM

 

kcarroll - 2012-12-13 6:59 PM

Jason, my kick is also weak/non-existant. I grew up riding horses which incorporates a leg/foot position of heels down/toes up. My ankle flexibility is good but 180° in the wrong direction. The masters coach had suggested trying to stretch the front of the foot/ankle but I've never really done anything about it. Her recommendation was to sit on the floor, knees bent and toes pointed behind you. 

Would love to hear more from the Fish on kick....and not just from a tri perspective. I'm also trying to learn dolphin kick, which so far has mostly been an exercise in not drowning. 

I love fly and dolphin. But one day while doing it in my extremely hideous way, my 12 year old came swimming to me, grabbed me, and dragged me to the edge of the pool saying, "It's okay, mama. I'll save you. I've got you." What a joker.


Ha priceless

2012-12-14 5:11 AM
in reply to: #4433790

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Payson, AZ
Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

Off to Vegas today.  Going to have to drive through a few snowstorms to get there though.  Going to get in some strength training in but not so sure on the run.  It's raining pretty hard out there and I just don't do rain anymore after 10 years in Oregon.  Lame, I know.  If I do get the run in I am for sure not taking a dog cause they have to get into my truck later and ain't no way a wet dog is getting into my truck.  lol 

2012-12-14 6:26 AM
in reply to: #4534896

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PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

No coach at the pool this morning as the kids are off to a meet in Montreal so I had to make up a workout on the fly.  I came up with a completely random mish mash set that I rather enjoyed.

200 pull on 3:00 building by 50s
2 x 100 IM on 1:45
4 x 25 fast on :30

I went through that 3 times and the constant change made things go by really quickly.

That's it for training for me today.  I hope everyone has a good day.

2012-12-14 7:34 AM
in reply to: #4433790

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Payson, AZ
Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
Well now it is snowing in Payson.  Clearly I have to run in that, at least one lap around the hood right?  It is still a very wet snow but it is sticking.  Pitch dark out though but I know the hood well enough I think.  No major potholes or anything to worry about...just wildlife


Edited by bzgl40 2012-12-14 7:35 AM
2012-12-14 7:40 AM
in reply to: #4534995

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

bzgl40 - 2012-12-14 9:34 AM Well now it is snowing in Payson.  Clearly I have to run in that, at least one lap around the hood right?  It is still a very wet snow but it is sticking.  Pitch dark out though but I know the hood well enough I think.  No major potholes or anything to worry about...just wildlife

Definitely.  I love running in sticky wet snow, as long as it is more snow than wet...



2012-12-14 11:32 AM
in reply to: #4534925

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
axteraa - 2012-12-14 4:26 AM

No coach at the pool this morning as the kids are off to a meet in Montreal so I had to make up a workout on the fly.  I came up with a completely random mish mash set that I rather enjoyed.

200 pull on 3:00 building by 50s
2 x 100 IM on 1:45
4 x 25 fast on :30

I went through that 3 times and the constant change made things go by really quickly.

That's it for training for me today.  I hope everyone has a good day.

Nice.  I agree that having things mixed up makes it go fast.

As for kicking, I have zoomers, but every time I would kick with them it would knot up my calves something fierce.  If I tried running after kicking with fins it was a guaranteed calf sprain, so I am really very careful

Have been doing more dolphin kicks, as 'core' work    Fast friend of mine instructed me to keep my back straighter and really generate the kick from the hips.

Speaking of fly, any good butterfliers here?  I stumbled across a stroke improvement, I think, the other night.  I've always just brought my arms forward on the recovery through  the water.  Like out and around from my torso, bringing my arms out of the water up nearer to my shoulders.   I started pulling my hands smoothly out behind me to start the recovery and man, if that wasn't an eye opener.  I realized that the way I was doing it was working against the resistance in the water as my arms came through it, and just killing me.  Bringing my hands out down near my hips, it's a further distance to the stroke but much easier to do (except if you've just gone 100 on 1:20  :^).  Is this correct technique?  Is this a "duh, that's what we've all been doing" moment?

2012-12-14 11:41 AM
in reply to: #4433790

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
Got in a 30 minute easy run.  I was actually planning go go 50-60 minutes but I thought better of it.  This is the first week in a while that I've actually run Sunday-Friday (which is my normal 6x a week routine, but been slacking lately) so better to keep the mileage a little lower.
2012-12-14 11:42 AM
in reply to: #4535438

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
Definitely want the arms to recover above the water as much as possible!  Getting the timing right for the dolphin kicks helps a lot too.
2012-12-14 11:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
Last day in Calgary!!! Heading home early today and hope to get a short run in this afternoon when Im home. Then spending the weekend packing for MAUIIIIIII!!! This week has been a roller coaster with interview invites and rejections so I'm ready to have a distraction!! Up to 3 interviews: 1 anesthesia and 2 family medicine.
2012-12-14 11:50 AM
in reply to: #4535472

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

mndymond - 2012-12-14 1:48 PM Last day in Calgary!!! Heading home early today and hope to get a short run in this afternoon when Im home. Then spending the weekend packing for MAUIIIIIII!!! This week has been a roller coaster with interview invites and rejections so I'm ready to have a distraction!! Up to 3 interviews: 1 anesthesia and 2 family medicine.

That's awesome, have fun with the packing and travelling!



2012-12-14 11:51 AM
in reply to: #4535459

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

axteraa - 2012-12-14 11:42 AM Definitely want the arms to recover above the water as much as possible!  Getting the timing right for the dolphin kicks helps a lot too.

Being capable of the dolphin kick in the first place would help as well! I'm not sure the coach quite understands how weak I am there. She did notice I wasn't going all the way back with the arm stroke, and it did make a difference in being able to do this.

Being able to watch the swim team going before us has been helpful on some things. They'll go through the motions in slo-mo, so I can really see the timing. Implementation has been another matter, but haven't been going for long.

2012-12-14 11:54 AM
in reply to: #4535438

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
Fins swimmer here, but not so much to increase flexibility but rather to loosen my ankles up a bit before I do my main set. My kick is OK - though I really have to work to stay with the folks in my lane at masters, so it could be better. My wife DESTROYS me on kicking sets - she is like a motor boat. Hey ankles are HYPER flexible though - the doc says she is actually missing a few tendons in both. We were running trails together a couple of years ago and right in front of me she took a spill as she rolled her ankle over so far it looked like the bottom of her foot touched the side of her leg. I almost vomited it was so gross. I thought she was done-in for sure. She picked herself up and said,"What? That happens all the time." and off she went, none-the-worse for wear. According to my coach (a two-time all American: 14:54 in the 1650) that is not an infrequent problem with swimmers and running. While he likes me to get my ankles a little looser for the swim, he has cautioned me against increasing my ankle flexibility too much much. He says he would rather me swim like a runner than run like a swimmer... and I guess that is what I do!
2012-12-14 12:03 PM
in reply to: #4535480

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
brigby1 - 2012-12-14 12:51 PM

axteraa - 2012-12-14 11:42 AM Definitely want the arms to recover above the water as much as possible!  Getting the timing right for the dolphin kicks helps a lot too.

Being capable of the dolphin kick in the first place would help as well! I'm not sure the coach quite understands how weak I am there. She did notice I wasn't going all the way back with the arm stroke, and it did make a difference in being able to do this.

Being able to watch the swim team going before us has been helpful on some things. They'll go through the motions in slo-mo, so I can really see the timing. Implementation has been another matter, but haven't been going for long.

I had a short set this morning aimed at fatiguing my core just a little bit before a one-on-one palates assessment session - it included a little bit of dolphin kicking on my back. I am good on my front, but for some reason on my back I cannot seem to maintain a constant elevation in the water - I either pop to the top or bang around on the bottom of the pool. Aquaman I am not. It is good core work though - for some reason dolphining on my back does seem to work my core quite a bit more than when on my front.

I cant even begin to tell you where my hands are during the recovery on my fly... they are all over the place. But I still do it whenever it is assigned. Not a big deal at the YMCA, but I can stop the whole pool deck to watch the show when I am at Auburn... I am just that good I guess.

2012-12-14 12:10 PM
in reply to: #4535490

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

TankBoy - 2012-12-14 7:54 AM While he likes me to get my ankles a little looser for the swim, he has cautioned me against increasing my ankle flexibility too much much. He says he would rather me swim like a runner than run like a swimmer... and I guess that is what I do!

I read about that as well...how swimmers or ballet dancers will be much more prone to rolling their ankles while running.

Definately not looking to get swimmers ankles...just don't want them to point straight to the bottom when swimming.

2012-12-14 12:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

We were running trails together a couple of years ago and right in front of me she took a spill as she rolled her ankle over so far it looked like the bottom of her foot touched the side of her leg. I almost vomited it was so gross. I thought she was done-in for sure. She picked herself up and said,"What? That happens all the time." and off she went, none-the-worse for wear.

I broke my ankle and tore all the ligaments in high school, and for years had that problem.  I'd step off a step and completely dislocate my ankle and it would pop out and pop back in.  I'd carry on.  Ortho recommended reconstruction to avoid arthritis later (this was back mid 80's).  Basically take tendon from further up and reconstruct one of the peroneals.   Fixed the problem, but as a result that ankle is not very flexible, and I seem to run into more resulting injuries on that side than anything else.

No real point to the above... just sharing 



2012-12-14 1:39 PM
in reply to: #4433790

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

Just a heads up for the folks using Strava - they added some new power features for premium accounts:

http://blog.strava.com/new-premium-feature-advanced-power-training-analysis-5436/

2012-12-14 2:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
TankBoy - 2012-12-14 1:03 PM

I cant even begin to tell you where my hands are during the recovery on my fly... they are all over the place. But I still do it whenever it is assigned. Not a big deal at the YMCA, but I can stop the whole pool deck to watch the show when I am at Auburn... I am just that good I guess.

That's awesome!

2012-12-14 2:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
axteraa - 2012-12-14 7:40 AM

bzgl40 - 2012-12-14 9:34 AM Well now it is snowing in Payson.  Clearly I have to run in that, at least one lap around the hood right?  It is still a very wet snow but it is sticking.  Pitch dark out though but I know the hood well enough I think.  No major potholes or anything to worry about...just wildlife

Definitely.  I love running in sticky wet snow, as long as it is more snow than wet...

Same here. We don't get much snow; it's too dry. But I love running in the snow.

2012-12-14 6:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

Another drive-by posting from Michael...  We have just two kids tonight -- my parents are taking the three youngest (that's still a strange thing for me to say...going from 3 to 5 suddenly has still not sunk in) and I'm taking advantage of a few free moments.

I can't hope to catch up with you all, but I am hoping that we will have something like a semi-normal routine in our house by Jan. 1.  Hopefully I can check in more regularly after that.  I do miss checking in with you all!

Although I had hardly trained and got sick earlier in the week, I did manage to run a half marathon last Saturday.  It was at the beach, and while the race was certainly fun (1:24:45 -- not bad for an old guy who hadn't trained!) the real joy was that the new children really seemed to enjoy themselves and to be part of the family.  There are many rocks ahead in the road, but it was nice to see them relaxed and having fun.  Kids are amazing.

Here's wishing a wonderful holidays to you all.  I hope to be more like semi-regular (rather than rare and irregular) after the New Year.

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