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2013-03-14 8:47 AM
in reply to: #4658877

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Experior - 2013-03-13 7:37 PM

Friends,

I waited for a few days after illness/lawyers/general trouble before posting this, but I think that, realistically, I have to say that while I'm not completely bowing out, you should assume that I'm mostly gone.  I just do not have time to come here, and frankly I feel really awful that some are diligently looking in on me (but thanks!) while I barely have time even to notice.  I will not say that I am gone for good, but I just cannot justify spending more than a tiny amount of time here with so much else going on that -- despite the awesomeness that I find in the good mentor groups on BT -- is more pressing.  I hope to look in sometimes, and I will certainly continue to train (if you are ever in my area, please feel free to get in touch for some training -- my contact info is just a click or two away from my profile) but I will not be checking in regularly, at least for the foreseeable future.

I wish you all the best, in training, tri, and life.

--Michael

Take care Michael, hopefully you'll be back in the not so distant future.



2013-03-14 9:00 AM
in reply to: #4659296

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Ben, just to echo everyone else, bump a lane up on occasion and don't worry about sitting out a length or a lap if you have to. Reece's experience sounds just like mine, and we too have that gap between the 1:20 folks and the 1:10 folks (I always think of it as the gap between the fast triathletes and Arend + the pure swimmers). In our group the pure swimmers are much less uptight than the triathletes about stuff - they are overly-encouraging in having you bump up a lane and joining them, and have no beef when I sit a length out, draft, or swim the fly intervals. They don't worry if they catch me - just a friendly tap on the foot and then they wait to pass at the wall. I guess when you swim 5000+ yards 6 days a week you don't mind taking a length or two a little slower than normal. So on my "on" days I will bump up, on my "steady" days I bump down.
2013-03-14 9:05 AM
in reply to: #4543084

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
When I left the house this morning at 5:15 for masters my wife was already up and on the bike doing "Revolver." Yeah, she did the women's version, because she is tough like that. When I got out of the pool I had a text message that said "Sufferlandria!"

That made my day.

2013-03-14 9:23 AM
in reply to: #4659341

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
TankBoy - 2013-03-14 9:05 AM When I left the house this morning at 5:15 for masters my wife was already up and on the bike doing "Revolver." Yeah, she did the women's version, because she is tough like that. When I got out of the pool I had a text message that said "Sufferlandria!"

That made my day.

She spelled it correctly and with no explicatives? Well she obviously didn't do it right! Wink

And thanks to everyone for the ideas on the swimming. It'll definitely vary by workout as some have me thinking not a chance, but others have me thinking it might work.



Edited by brigby1 2013-03-14 9:23 AM
2013-03-14 9:24 AM
in reply to: #4657514

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
brigby1 - 2013-03-12 10:33 PM
marcag - 2013-03-12 5:39 PM
ChrisM - 2013-03-12 5:08 PM

Me too Arend.... whch leads me to the 64K question ....  If I am training with a CT (hence power) but don't have it to race with, and don't really have correlated HR zones, does it make any sense to continue to train with a CT if I don't get a powermeter for the road?

Do you know your FTP on the CT ? If so, calculate your target race pace, for example 80% for HIM. Do a 1 hour ride at that 80% and look at your HR. That would be your target HR for a HIM.

Use it in race rehearsals and up it or down it a bit based on the race rehearsal findings.

This is pretty accurate for me.

Yes, that's what I would say. Use it to help tune metrics you do have. I've also honed in RPE better as well.

x3 yes.  I use virtual power on TR all winter and for all of my weekday riding during the summer as well but do not train with power outside.   I have been able to really dial in RPE and even HR very well with power percentages.

For racing, sprint and Olympics I use no in-race data to guide my pacing except RPE.  For HIM, I do use a mixture of HR on the bike and run along with RPE.  

2013-03-14 9:25 AM
in reply to: #4543084

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

I'm clueless on bike helmets.  I have a couple Bell helmets I got at Walmart or Target for like $30.  I want a new helmet, something that looks better, more up to date etc. but I do not want to pay $200 either.  Budget with shipping not to exceed $100, Nashbar has an extra 25% off right now

http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10052&storeId=10053&categoryId=202364&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=202331&top_category=202331&pageView=

I was looking at the Gyro Atmos there for $119 with the extra 25% it's down to $90.

I have an aero helmet for Tri's go this is for training/group rides etc.

I'd like to find a decent helmet for less cost so if any of you know of something decent at a lower price let me know what your thoughts are.



2013-03-14 9:34 AM
in reply to: #4658734

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Asalzwed - 2013-03-13 5:45 PM

I believe I will have around 16 weeks to train for an Oly in August. If it matters, two of those weeks will be no running.

Would you guys do some sort of a "B" triathlon in there somewhere or just train right through.

If you suggest a tri, would you do a sprint or an oly?

I would add a race in there at some point to judge fitness and goals.  It could be sprint or Olympic.  For me, I would prefer an Olympic distance event to get a better feel.  The swim in an Olympic is a much more significant portion of the race and can really impact the bike/run.  It would be good to see where everything is at fitness wise prior to your 'A' race to make any adjustments in your training/pacing.

You are coming off a big run focus, so it may be important to see how the swimming is coming around and how it will impact the race.  You would not see that in a sprint IMO.

2013-03-14 9:36 AM
in reply to: #4659380

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
reecealan - 2013-03-14 10:25 AM

I'm clueless on bike helmets.  I have a couple Bell helmets I got at Walmart or Target for like $30.  I want a new helmet, something that looks better, more up to date etc. but I do not want to pay $200 either.  Budget with shipping not to exceed $100, Nashbar has an extra 25% off right now

http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10052&storeId=10053&categoryId=202364&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=202331&top_category=202331&pageView=

I was looking at the Gyro Atmos there for $119 with the extra 25% it's down to $90.

I have an aero helmet for Tri's go this is for training/group rides etc.

I'd like to find a decent helmet for less cost so if any of you know of something decent at a lower price let me know what your thoughts are.

I love my Rudy Projects.  Very light and comfy.  If you are interested PM me and can get you 40% off. 

2013-03-14 9:42 AM
in reply to: #4659267

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
TankBoy - 2013-03-14 8:21 AM
marcag - 2013-03-13 9:38 AM

Oh, I almost forgot.

Something big happening tomorrow :-)

 

Has it happened yet? I have been hiding under my bed all morning just in case it is something bad....

 

Yes, front page link off ST

 

Please like, twit and share with your friends ;-)



Edited by marcag 2013-03-14 9:43 AM
2013-03-14 9:53 AM
in reply to: #4659407

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
marcag - 2013-03-14 10:42 AM
TankBoy - 2013-03-14 8:21 AM
marcag - 2013-03-13 9:38 AM

Oh, I almost forgot.

Something big happening tomorrow :-)

 

Has it happened yet? I have been hiding under my bed all morning just in case it is something bad....

 

Yes, front page link off ST

 

Please like, twit and share with your friends ;-)

Awesome Marc!  I will be sharing with my boss .

2013-03-14 10:18 AM
in reply to: #4659407

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
marcag - 2013-03-14 10:42 AM
TankBoy - 2013-03-14 8:21 AM
marcag - 2013-03-13 9:38 AM

Oh, I almost forgot.

Something big happening tomorrow :-)

 

Has it happened yet? I have been hiding under my bed all morning just in case it is something bad....

 

Yes, front page link off ST

 

Please like, twit and share with your friends ;-)

Whew! *Gets out from under bed.* that is very cool indeed, Marc. Good luck! If you don't mind me asking, who is your architect and/or interior designer for the project? That is the same "space" both the wife and I work in (forward-leaning office environments) always good to know who is doing what out there.



2013-03-14 11:09 AM
in reply to: #4659472

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
TankBoy - 2013-03-14 10:18 AM
marcag - 2013-03-14 10:42 AM
TankBoy - 2013-03-14 8:21 AM
marcag - 2013-03-13 9:38 AM

Oh, I almost forgot.

Something big happening tomorrow :-)

 

Has it happened yet? I have been hiding under my bed all morning just in case it is something bad....

 

Yes, front page link off ST

 

Please like, twit and share with your friends ;-)

Whew! *Gets out from under bed.* that is very cool indeed, Marc. Good luck! If you don't mind me asking, who is your architect and/or interior designer for the project? That is the same "space" both the wife and I work in (forward-leaning office environments) always good to know who is doing what out there.

We haven't got to that point yet. We still need to figure out how many people we can pull. But we do want to create something very unique

2013-03-14 11:28 AM
in reply to: #4659069

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
brigby1 - 2013-03-14 12:11 AM
axteraa - 2013-03-13 9:39 AM

I went for my usual Wednesday AM swim this morning and then decided it would be a good idea to go for a run immediately after to avoid the rain that is coming.  Turns out that was a bad idea.  Totally running on empty for the run, pace was way off what I would normally do.  

It appears that one english muffin with almond butter is not enough to adequately fuel 4200m in the pool followed by a 40 min run.  That or I suck at running in the morning.  Or my legs are pooched from the bike yesterday.  Any other excuses I can use?  Tongue out

That happens to me a lot too. It can even be morning/afternoon separation and still have some effect. Seems to be improving lately though.

I had the same thing when I was training for the marathon a few weeks back. I'd get home from the swim lesson at 7:30AM and out for a training run about an hour later.   I asked the instructor why my times were off since I started the swim lessons. She said different muscles were being used and legs tired overall.  She also said people dehydrate  when swimming hard so need to hydrate between drills and take in more potasium. It worked.  Might be worth a try. 
2013-03-14 11:40 AM
in reply to: #4659616

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Having a really hard time sitting off to the side and not being able to train. Been going to the gym with my daughter and doing whatever I can with one arm, and that's not much. I actually signed up wiith the hopes maybe in April I'll be able to use it again. I'll be able to go there and try to get it back to normal. Still on the trainer everyday. The other group I'm involved with for the straights days of cycling waived my number of days indoors so my streak still lives as long as I do the indoor time penality. So today is day 1534. Now the snow is gone I'll do some long walks as well. Anyone have anyother ideas of what can be done to keep some fitness.
2013-03-14 12:32 PM
in reply to: #4659271

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
TankBoy - 2013-03-14 10:25 AM

I think this is actually a good example of where folks go way wrong in underestimating the importance of swim training, especially in long course racing.

There is an interesting discussion about this going on on ST

2013-03-14 12:46 PM
in reply to: #4659721

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
axteraa - 2013-03-14 11:32 AM
TankBoy - 2013-03-14 10:25 AM

I think this is actually a good example of where folks go way wrong in underestimating the importance of swim training, especially in long course racing.

There is an interesting discussion about this going on on ST

I agree with the "have to swim regardless". I wont say I swim as much as I probably could swim for the sake of my schedule and needing more time to focus on riding and running but for the sake of recovery after 4k, I think you need to swim a reasonable amount. Right now I'm aiming to hit the water a minimum of 3x a week. Sure I could not swim or keep my swims at 2000m and still make it through an ironman swim in a decent time, but I would probably really regret it on the bike with my tight shoulders and tired body.



2013-03-14 12:50 PM
in reply to: #4543084

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
*random appearance* I can't wait for my life as a "professional triathlete" to start in T- 6 work days. Then all I really have left is my licensing exam and can work study time around training and naps. Almost done schooool.
2013-03-14 1:02 PM
in reply to: #4543084

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

Thought I'd post the attached (it's from a site that requires membership so I can't just post the link). . The Annual Meeting of The American College of Cardiology was this past week in San Francisco. I was not in attendance but have been reading the news synopses. I'm not trying to start a debate on risks of endurance sports, but I did find some of the comments below to be interesting - specifically phenotype/genotype/gender risk. While not stated below, gender risk might be negated by onset of menopause. Fred, if he pops over, could add more to this. I would not call any of this groundbreaking but it is contemporary. The author references data presented in live sessions at the meeting...fyi this does not mean that the data are yet peer reviewed. The commentary below is purely discussion. I don't know the author but note that he has identified himself as a competitive cyclist. Anyhow, found it interesting. 

Kim

Does exercise cause myocardial fibrosis? Please don't say exercise can cause heart disease

MAR 11, 2013 10:10 

What one treatment in the practice of medicine are you most sure of?

For me, it is absolutely clear: Regular exercise promotes and sustains wellness. Don't call it exercise; that's too clinical. Just say using your body on a regular basis.

Not all, but a large share, of this American College of Cardiology (ACC) 2013 meeting addresses diagnostic tests for and treatments of diseases that could have been prevented or delayed. Excluding genetic disorders and flukes of nature (paroxysmal supraventricular tachycardia and idiopathic cardiomyopathy, for example), much of what a heart doctor treats is avoidable. We can all agree that the human race is suffering through a period of severe underexercise.

This is why it hurts me to even bring up the idea that too much exercise could cause problems. You don't want anything down in print about exercise being bad for the heart.

But why wouldn't exercise have a dose-response curve? Everything does, except, perhaps, love. (Whoa, did I just type that?)

Endurance exercise and its potential to cause heart disease is a compelling narrative. All good stories feature conflict.

On the one hand, exercise is good and vital. But . . . on the other is the endurance-athlete mindset (I know them well). These folks have studied the training modules: You load the muscle with stress. Although this induces short-term inflammation, with adequate rest, the muscle adapts and comes back stronger. Our competitors train like crazy, so to win we must outwork our adversaries. Alas, the problem is that training like Lance does not mean riding like Lance. (That simile is less apropos these days, but you understand.)

There were a number of notable sessions at the 2013 ACC meeting that shed light on this intriguing topic. In the next few paragraphs, I will offer my completely biased views on the matter of chronically inflaming oneself over a lifetime.

Endurance athletics and AF

During a session entitled Turn the beat around: Atrial fibrillation in the active patient and athlete, Dr Brian Olshansky (University of Iowa) made clear that long-term endurance athletics (definitely) increases the risk of atrial fibrillation. There can be no debate on this. He also pointed out that female gender might be protective. Women endurance athletes seem not to have the association with AF. That was interesting. (Are women smarter about training?)

What is the mechanism of AF in athletes?

The short answer is we do not know. In the same session, Dr Rachel Lampert (Yale) offered evidence that there might be something to the interaction between high vagal tone interspersed with bursts of adrenaline. It makes sense because we know both milieus are arrhythmogenic: vagal stimulation decreases action potential duration and enhances electrical heterogeneity, while norepinephrine increases automaticity and ectopy. Add to this the possibility of structural remodeling and inflammation, and you have a good theory of why athletes are susceptible to AF.

The only thing I would add to this story is the possible role of genetics. Clearly, the phenotype of slow-twitch athletes with AF is repetitive—tall, Northern Euro, detail-oriented, measured, determined, etc. Why wouldn't their genotypes be similar as well? We know that AF has a strong genetic basis; it's a good bet that susceptibility to the effects of exercise is, too. What's more, might the same genes that make one think riding six hours in the rain is fun also make one susceptible to AF?

Is there such a thing as the Phidippides cardiomyopathy? It's a relevant question for electrophysiologists, because fibrosis increases the susceptibility to arrhythmia and sudden death. A great deal of observational data suggest that a small but not insignificant minority of endurance exercisers develop myocardial scar, predominantly in the right ventricle and septum. One theory is that short-term inflammation induces injury, and if the heart is never allowed to rest and heal, inflammation leads to scar. Postmarathon and -triathlon studies confirm transient rises in cardiac enzymes and RV dysfunction. And some studies show a correlation between exercise chronicity/intensity with fibrosis. (The above hyperlink takes you to a thorough review article on the subject.)

Not everyone agrees. Dr Kyler Barkley from the University of Texas presented this series of 93 healthy senior citizens for whom an extensive 20-year bank of demographic data were available. They grouped subjects into four strata of exercise ranging from sedentary to competitive athletes. Fitness tests along with MRIs were done in each of the subjects. Their findings were both simple and elegant. Cardiopulmonary fitness, measured by VO2 max tests, correlated well with training, which isn't surprising, but confirms the validity of the self-reported exercise dose. Most importantly, none of the competitive-level seniors had evidence of scar on MRI scans. The conclusion: long-term endurance exercise does not cause fibrosis.

Two points were raised in the Q and A. The first addressed this study's differences from prior observational data on fibrosis. Dr Barkley hinted at the possibility that occult heart diseases might have accounted for the discordance. Their cohort was well measured and followed closely over two decades. The second issue was whether his study's subjects represented a survivor cohort. Were they just a self-selected group that tolerated the chronic exercise? The answer here is unknown.

My take

Please don't ask where the upper limit of exercise is. I don't think there is just one threshold. Individuals differ in their tolerance for stress. As physicians, though, we can emphasize to our patients what we know:

It is possible to exercise enough to harbor an increased risk of arrhythmia and maybe even induce fibrosis. It's worth noting that "superfitness" does not inoculate against heart disease. Do not judge a book by its cover. The engine should not be assumed healthy because the chassis looks sleek.

A final note: Good luck getting this cohort to modify their lifestyle.

JMM

 
About the author

Dr John Mandrola practices cardiac electrophysiology in Louisville, KY. He finished training at Indiana University in 1996. His practice encompasses catheter ablation, including an eight-year experience with AF ablation, device implantation, and consultative EP. Outside of the EP lab, Dr Mandrola's two hobbies include competitive cycling and writing. He has maintained a medical, fitness, and cycling blog, Dr John M, for the past two years.

2013-03-14 1:03 PM
in reply to: #4659407

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
marcag - 2013-03-14 10:42 AM
TankBoy - 2013-03-14 8:21 AM
marcag - 2013-03-13 9:38 AM

Oh, I almost forgot.

Something big happening tomorrow :-)

 

Has it happened yet? I have been hiding under my bed all morning just in case it is something bad....

 

Yes, front page link off ST

 

Please like, twit and share with your friends ;-)

VERY cool!

2013-03-14 1:23 PM
in reply to: #4659232

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
TankBoy - 2013-03-14 8:55 AM
Experior - 2013-03-13 8:37 PM

Friends,

I waited for a few days after illness/lawyers/general trouble before posting this, but I think that, realistically, I have to say that while I'm not completely bowing out, you should assume that I'm mostly gone.  I just do not have time to come here, and frankly I feel really awful that some are diligently looking in on me (but thanks!) while I barely have time even to notice.  I will not say that I am gone for good, but I just cannot justify spending more than a tiny amount of time here with so much else going on that -- despite the awesomeness that I find in the good mentor groups on BT -- is more pressing.  I hope to look in sometimes, and I will certainly continue to train (if you are ever in my area, please feel free to get in touch for some training -- my contact info is just a click or two away from my profile) but I will not be checking in regularly, at least for the foreseeable future.

I wish you all the best, in training, tri, and life.

--Michael

Hi Michael, very sorry to see you go - like everyone else I have learned a lot from your contributions to the group. Your voice will be missed in the dialogue. But first things first, right? I am sure that I am not alone in saying that there will always be room for you at this table, even if it is on the rarest if occasions. If you get a chance please do pop in once in a while and let us know how you are getting along. In the meantime, all the best to you and your family.

X2 - have always appreciated your contributions to the site in general Michael.  Best of luck with everything.

2013-03-14 1:30 PM
in reply to: #4659282

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
TankBoy - 2013-03-14 9:30 AM
tri808 - 2013-03-13 3:45 PM

I did some interesting analysis on the results of my hill climbing workout.  Because this climb is pretty even throughout, is very sheltered to wind, I don't draft anyone, nor are they any stop signs, it's actually a good testing ground.

One thing I noticed compared to last couple of years is that I'm pushing similar wattages for the climbs, but I'm about 4-5% slower on each climb (a little over a minute) this year.  I think my total weight of me and my bike (and any bottles, tools, ect) is about the same, but the one big difference is I'm still using my flat resistant tires instead of GP4000S tires.

So I went over to anyalytic cycling to play around with some numbers.  I don't consider this anything close to scientific, but I did some simple assumptions, including that my setup now is about 3 pounds heavier...just to make sure weight wasn't the key factor in why I'm slower.

The results were, that even 3 pound heavier...at the same wattage, the only way I could be consistantly 1 minute slower is if my crr (rolling resistance) is higher by about .002.  I took a look at that tire rolling resistance chart, and while my current tires aren't on the list (Serfas Survivor Series), I wouldn't doubt that the crr of those tires are .002 higher than the Continental GP4000S.  They really are slow tires and it is quite noticeable.

If you take a look at the chart and find two tires that have a difference of .002 in crr, the difference is about 10 watts per wheel, or 20 watts total.

Given that I have done this climb over 120 times at different power levels, I can confidently say that adds up pretty well.  For me to drop go about 1 minute faster on any given setup...I need to push about 15-20 more watts on average.  For example yesterday, I did 2 climbs at around 280 watts in roughly 26:15.  The third climb I struggled at 263 watts and it was at 27:31

It just makes me a true believer in that chart.  Many people may scoff at the idea that switching from a Gatorskin to a GP4000S can really save them 15-20 watts total, and 5-7 minutes over a HIM (more than enough time to have a flat and still be faster overall).  I was already a believer before, but now I at least have some of my own testing results to validate that chart.

Slow day at work, Jason?

Seriously, this is good info - nice to read some real-world testing results. I am just not sure I could stomach putting two different brands of tires on my bike though. We all know aero >weight, but isn't aesthetics > aero and rolling resistance combined?

Good info Jason.  Nice to see real world numbers along with the data garnered from the rollers.



2013-03-14 1:33 PM
in reply to: #4659574

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
marcag - 2013-03-14 12:09 PM
TankBoy - 2013-03-14 10:18 AM
marcag - 2013-03-14 10:42 AM
TankBoy - 2013-03-14 8:21 AM
marcag - 2013-03-13 9:38 AM

Oh, I almost forgot.

Something big happening tomorrow :-)

 

Has it happened yet? I have been hiding under my bed all morning just in case it is something bad....

 

Yes, front page link off ST

 

Please like, twit and share with your friends ;-)

Whew! *Gets out from under bed.* that is very cool indeed, Marc. Good luck! If you don't mind me asking, who is your architect and/or interior designer for the project? That is the same "space" both the wife and I work in (forward-leaning office environments) always good to know who is doing what out there.

We haven't got to that point yet. We still need to figure out how many people we can pull. But we do want to create something very unique

Very cool concept.  I firmly believe that companies who balance work/life for employees, and go even further to support their lifestyles attract and retain valuable staff.  Most companies don't get it.

2013-03-14 1:55 PM
in reply to: #4659721

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
axteraa - 2013-03-14 1:32 PM
TankBoy - 2013-03-14 10:25 AM

I think this is actually a good example of where folks go way wrong in underestimating the importance of swim training, especially in long course racing.

There is an interesting discussion about this going on on ST

My n=1 experience was that improved swim fitness = better bike/run performance.  I swam more consistently last year and was faster on the bike/run (new bike also helped).

Plan is to swim longer sessions in the pool this year and see how that translates for the HIM distance.  For the record, I didn't swim much faster in races, but was fresher.

Oh, and I had my first morning pool swim today.  It wasn't pretty, but it happened.  Now I just need to get used to waking up at an ungodly hour (overslept and had a short swim today).

2013-03-14 2:01 PM
in reply to: #4659407

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
marcag - 2013-03-14 9:42 AM
TankBoy - 2013-03-14 8:21 AM
marcag - 2013-03-13 9:38 AM

Oh, I almost forgot.

Something big happening tomorrow :-)

 

Has it happened yet? I have been hiding under my bed all morning just in case it is something bad....

 

Yes, front page link off ST

 

Please like, twit and share with your friends ;-)

Wow, I think I might be polishing up my resume.  I'm a technical trainer.....

2013-03-14 2:04 PM
in reply to: #4543084

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

I will always overtrain the swim (not in an "overtrained" sense, but more than I would need to to do well).   Especially in a mass start setting, getting out of the water with the front runners, aways from the huge midpacks, offers a significant (IMO) advantage. 

There was also a discussion long time ago on another board to the effect of you can be a 3:20 marathoner, but if you can't get through the swim without gassing yourself, it does no good.

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