Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club (Page 12)

BTW I would be curious to hear people's response to Jason's question in this thread http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=501941&posts=19&page=1

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This is why I asked at what point is two runs equal to one 20.  If 15 and 5 is still less than 20...what happens physiologically in the last 5 miles of a 20 miler that gets you additional fitness gains?  If during a 20 miler your HR increases from 130 the first hour, to 140 the second hour, to 150 the third hour, you can still simulate the time spent in those HR ranges with equal amounts of time in each zone with a 15 and 5 mile run (or 2x10, 12 and 8, etc.) by tweaking the intensity.

There are definitely more than one way to reach a goal.  In no way am I saying that you shouldn't run long.  There are benefits of learning mentally what type of paces you can hold, how you deal with nutrition, and how you adjust to temperatures possibly getting warmer the longer you run.  But I think a lot of people get caught up in "the long run is more important than any other run" train of thought. 

I say this in very general terms.  Someone can dig up some study if they want to that proves the long run provides 3% more benefit than running an equal distance over 2 days if they want to.  I'm trying to dispel the notion that some people tend to believe the long run provides something like 30% more benefit than running equal distance over more days (Bruce, not saying this is what you think, but there are others who seem to think so).  Hence why you see hundreds of threads asking about how they should structure their 16, 18, and 20 mile long runs because they don't want to give them up...but they only run 15-20 miles during the mid week.  Not implying that's the OP (I know the OP puts in her miles), but it's true that 90% of the "what should I do about my running" threads always emphasize the long run...and all the other miles tend to get overlooked as if they don't matter.

Just my 2 cents."

Which way is better depends on the situation. One is not always better than the other, so it would be better to ask what one gets out of each type of run then make a blanket statement that one is better than the other. Later in the marathon training, doing the long run as one continuous run becomes more important. The adaptation is to the more continuous running, and it's necessary to run straight through to get that. The substantial break in a split allows one to recover so they don't adapt quite as much *in that way*. Splitting up the runs is more for people who don't need the adaptation of going so long continuously as their races are significantly shorter. They'll get in the mileage without having to go so deep at one time.

Did you ever hear of the Strands group a few years ago? They had a fitness site going and sponsored some elite/borderline elite level runners. A number of the guys were near or breaking 14 min 5k's, 29 min 10k's or 2:11-2:20 marathons and such. They had one specific group up in the NW corner, forget exactly where. We could see all of what they put into their logs. They would get in 10-13 mile runs many days a week, some getting to 15 here and there. They didn't go above that very often until they were in a marathon build. Maybe every few weeks at most for some. The daily total could still be up in the high teens (80-95 mpw year round for many), but it would be in two runs. One bigger one with something to concentrate on and another smaller one. Either recovery later in the day, or shake-out in the morning. This allowed them to get in a lot of running, and frequently get in some quality running, without going too deep at any point in time. So yeah, the splitting of the mileage can actually be better for some. And is likely better for much of the time until one needs to build up for a longer race.

I also think many people have trouble weighing different variables. Trying to balance out more than one or two things is very hard for them, so they try to simplify things down to 1 or 2 items and end up fixating too much. Like the long run obsession. They can't mentally handle balancing all of volume, frequency, long run, quality runs all together. Or understand that the balance can move around at times. They either can't or don't want to put in the mental effort for this. I also think that many misunderstand how building fitness works. You don't just get credit for completing an assigned task the way you might for school or work. It's a balancing act between the work and recovery based off your current fitness and where you want to go. Too much (or not enough) of one or the other and the structure begins to lean and can't reach as high. Or it might topple over completely.

I have been following along, but haven't posted on any of this yet.  ^^this rings true for me.  I have been spending the better part of the past 6 months just running lots.  But no specific 'point' to any of my runs.  I would like to change this, but so much of JD just seems beyond me and my ability.  Or I don't have the experience to figure out what is not beyond my ability and how to incorporate.  So I'll just continue lurking and learning

Well, basically everyone should just start out or build up with just running e-pace for awhile, to get a good deal of conditioning in to handle the pounding. That's been the purpose of all your runs so far. Some will also have the purpose of stretching out how far you go and others just getting in some more conditioning between the larger ones. Having a purpose doesn't mean there has to be some strong effort involved. Only to have a sense of why you're doing that run, what should you be getting out of it. And in situations like that, it's ok if that purpose is largely similar for quite awhile. This isn't creative writing where you need a new idea every day. The creativity would be more in finding places to run to help keep things interesting.

When you mention "ability", do you mean more physical capability or more comprehending? As in being able to run at the various efforts or understanding what they mean?

Ha!  Both!  I am still learning what 'easy' vs 'hard' feels like.  Trying to understand M vs LT vs XYZ is kinda still beyond me.  Part of my issue is that I have been injury prone, more due to bad genes than anything, and so trying anything new makes me nervous.  I have seen improvements in my running simply from running more than I ever have, consistently, but wonder how much more I could get. 

Learning to get in more running consistently can take you a long ways. After awhile of being able to handle that, there are a number of ways to build in more intensity. But for understanding what all these things are, I've found it easier to focus more on threshold and VO2 (in addition to just running easy). Daniels uses T-pace and I-pace for the effort associated with those. These are points where something notable is going on in your body. T-pace referring to the point where lactate is being produced just as fast as it's cleared and I-pace to the max level of oxygen absorbed. M-pace and R-pace don't really have that distinction, and while they are useful towards development, don't think I'd quite put them up at the same importance as the other two.

Some of the way things are presented can lead into that confusing mindset of everything being of utmost importance and be a bit overwhelming. I found that especially in the M-pace section and there really didn't seem to be that much of it in the color named plans for how much he seemed to like it.

Thanks for responding to this, Ben. I saw it and really wanted to respond by have been up to my ears in some stuff. It's exactly what I would have said only much more eloquent. 

Kirsten, don't arbitrarily limit yourself. 

Thanks, Ben, and yes, Salty, I think that is part of my issue as well...  Having done all this 'slow' running and seeing my HM time improve anyway I am starting to recognize that I maybe do have more ability than I give myself credit for...

Yeah, Kirsten, what they said.  Besides, you're one of the main peeps giving me faith in the running slow for a majority of training will pay off on race day.  Don't go doubtin now!

OK, question for the gang.

I think we would all agree that if you're scheduled for a hard day, and you're "not feeling it" for whatever reason (general fatigue, sickness, too tired from an earlier workout), it's OK to not push through, and that you most probably will be better served by listening to your body.

What about the reverse of that: if you're scheduled for an easy day, but you're feeling "really good" do you still just hold the reigns back.  Do you ever not? 

Yeah, Kirsten, what they said.  Besides, you're one of the main peeps giving me faith in the running slow for a majority of training will pay off on race day.  Don't go doubtin now!

OK, question for the gang.

I think we would all agree that if you're scheduled for a hard day, and you're "not feeling it" for whatever reason (general fatigue, sickness, too tired from an earlier workout), it's OK to not push through, and that you most probably will be better served by listening to your body.

What about the reverse of that: if you're scheduled for an easy day, but you're feeling "really good" do you still just hold the reigns back.  Do you ever not? 

I do not. Unless it's a long run where I have room to unleash a  little for a block of time if I am feeling it. (since I plan for some recovery after long runs)

My schedule is based on having ample time to recover so that I can perform my quality workouts properly. Additionally, my quality workouts are with a club, so the days I do them are predetermined. Running an easy run hard not only might mess that up, but might put my workout in that no mans land where it's not really stressing a system but limiting my ability to recovery. Or at least that is the way I see it.

The exception is,  during a quality workout if I am really feeling it, I may push it a little, with a risk assessment. Example, if I have an "A" race coming up I'd probably not risk testing the waters too much.

This is all said assuming a reasonable pace range for "easy runs" because that kind of depends on the day. I may run an easy run faster one day, but not outside the range of what is considered easy.

If my training was at your level I'd agree with you 100%.  For me, since I'm just introducing quality, I really just have a Q1 in my schedule and the Q2 is more the roving exception if I'm feeling good.  If I was scheduled to do my Q1 on day x, I probably would restrain the roving Q2 on day x-1 in order to keep the proper focus on Q1.

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Asalzwed I've never thought of M pace that way. Very interesting! Often people tend to say that you are "getting the feel" for running at M but I've never liked that answer. Thank you for this.

Agreed.  This was really helpful.

I'm back at JD, gang.  Had to take a break because of a crazy work deadline.  I have my life back now.

Where's Steve?  He's MIA...

Out of town for a few days.  I'm doing my long run today at M pace but because my M pace is so slow it actually is an exercise in discipline to take it down a notch.  I have a marathon next weekend and this is kind of a 13-15 mile simulation.

Is your ankle/AT any better?  I went through AT for three years before getting past it.  I just could not take it easy and I kept aggravating it.

  Good, when I don't see my friends post for a few days I start to worry.

I'm going to try a run this weekend.  I can still "feel it" but it doesn't feel too bad.  I'm going to take it really, really easy.  I fricking can not have a three year battle with this.  I won't make it.  I need to be able to run or my family will have me committed.

I'll tell you what makes it hurt.  Sitting at a desk for fourteen hours a day for three days straight.  Makes it throb...

Hmmm, my teammate had acute achilles tendonitis and it maybe sounds like you had chronic achilles tendonitis, right Steve? From what I understand (which may not be correct) is that these are two different injuries.

Also from what I understand is that acute can become chronic if it's not given proper rest/treatment. So, please be careful. No sense turning this thing into a multi-year issue.

Did you start running yet, Elesa? How did it feel? If so, did you run on alternate surfaces or anything?

Since I've been pushing so much in the other two disciplines, I do a lot of what the both of you have said as well. I have 2 days for quality runs. I do it then or I keep going easy. I'll try for quality when it's scheduled, but I don't force it if it's not there. On easier days where I'm feeling good, I may run a little faster, but still within the range of easy. I stay away from hard, and also try to stay away from moderate as well. Especially on the day before a quality run. I need to have some recovery before being able to step it up. I also don't really get hurt due to a quality run, but due to too many moderate too close together. Sometimes it triggers in the q-run, but more often on an easier run. And every time I've been able to look back and see in the several preceding days I was pushing the pace a bit fast for easy but not into hard.

I do not. Unless it's a long run where I have room to unleash a  little for a block of time if I am feeling it. (since I plan for some recovery after long runs)

My schedule is based on having ample time to recover so that I can perform my quality workouts properly. Additionally, my quality workouts are with a club, so the days I do them are predetermined. Running an easy run hard not only might mess that up, but might put my workout in that no mans land where it's not really stressing a system but limiting my ability to recovery. Or at least that is the way I see it.

The exception is,  during a quality workout if I am really feeling it, I may push it a little, with a risk assessment. Example, if I have an "A" race coming up I'd probably not risk testing the waters too much.

This is all said assuming a reasonable pace range for "easy runs" because that kind of depends on the day. I may run an easy run faster one day, but not outside the range of what is considered easy.

This.  There are no magical "bad days" in training.  If you've reached a quality day and you don't feel like you can push that day, then I've found that it's because of one of the following:

1) You don't want to push and need to suck it up, buttercup.  

2) You've pushed too hard on base building days, and are now tired. (In which case I still say "suck it up, buttercup")

3) You're ill and shouldn't be running at any effort you psycho!

4) You've overestimated your fitness, have been training with a plan that is beyond your current level, and a few weeks out you're starting to pay for it.

I'm usually guilty of #1, but I've read enough from coaches and athletes that say when you feel lethargic, go out and focus on the objective to see if your condition improves.  I don't know how many days I've woken up and thought "no way I'm doing that", and much to my surprise I'm able to get the workout done no problem.

Well, would suggest being careful on #2. Maybe you can get away with it, but that describes the path that gets me hurt.

I have had the "no way" feeling a lot of times and do end up being able to do ok. But to do that I'll take a nice warm-up and have a good sized progression later in it before I start the main set. I'll try to work up to a level about where I'm expecting to start, and throughout this process I'm evaluating how much better I'm feeling to take my best estimate of how I can perform. And tweak the workout accordingly. If I don't see enough progress, I'll can the hard work and just run easy. I don't have to feel awesome by the end of it, just that the trend of feeling better is strong enough that I can do the workout mostly as intended from the start of the main set. The improvement can continue in there, but I should be pretty well through it and expect it to level off within a few minutes or less.

When this is happening and running is more of a concentration, I'll re-evaluate the several days leading in and try to adjust things for next time. When I really need to have the progression, I'm probably starting to push how much my body can handle, and my history has shown that just trying to suck it up would be a bad idea.

#2 is usually cost by a lack of discipline or a warning sign of #4 being the case.  Usually the case doesn't happen often with me, but it's definitely something to watch out for.

You should always have a good warmup before beginning any kind of quality workout (doubly so for races).