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2008-11-28 7:50 PM
in reply to: #1792702

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Master
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Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009

Jorge, I have a couple of questions.

Is the HR test going to start us off for week 3 or finish off the week?  Just trying to figure out my upcoming training with work, running and hockey.

With regards to the HR testing, won't your method give us a lower number then the testing procedure from Mike Ricci that's been out on BT for some time?  Your method takes the avg hr over 30 minutes then you multiply it by .97, where coach Ricci's method is taking your avg HR over the last 20 minutes of a 30 minute testing window to come up with the LTHR.  Coach Ricci's method will have a higher avg hr number for LT.

Thanks, and hope your feeling better!



2008-11-30 6:55 AM
in reply to: #1792702

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Regular
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Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009

Hi Jorge,

Hope you're feeling better.  Quick question - for the LTHR TT test, do you multiply your average HR by .95 or .97?  Your posting on your blog for the test says 95%, but in your example of calculating it, you use .97.  

I'm planning on doing it now instead of Q3 so that I can do both the HR and power testing since my power meter is for my trainer only, so I can have reference for when we get outside again... whenever that is!

Thanks!  I love feeling my workouts have such purpose on the trainer!

Monica 

2008-11-30 2:03 PM
in reply to: #1792702

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Regular
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Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009

Hi Jorge,

               Thanks for setting all this up. I'm currently about to start week 2, the thing I'm having trouble with is I do the workout early morning. You say it's important to eat a couple of hours before the workout but because of where I live and it fits in easier I ride to work as the warm up (about 15 minute ride) Then I've set my trainer up at work and I do the main set before starting work, is this ok?

The other thing I'm not quite clear on is I've got a cyclops trainer and it hasn't got any setting to add difficulty am I better to up the cadence to make it harder or should I change gears and try to keep nearer to 90 rpm?

 

2008-11-30 5:14 PM
in reply to: #1792702

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009

sorry I've been a bit MIA gang but I've been fighting a chest cold. Anyway here is the next week:

  • Week # 3 (power meter)
  • Week # 3 (HRM/RPE)
  • let me know if you have questions and remember the testing protocols are on my blog.

    The tests are tough so get ready and enjoy!

    2008-11-30 5:51 PM
    in reply to: #1829878

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    Coach
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009
    rottieguy - 2008-11-28 7:50 PM

    Jorge, I have a couple of questions.

    Is the HR test going to start us off for week 3 or finish off the week?  Just trying to figure out my upcoming training with work, running and hockey.

    With regards to the HR testing, won't your method give us a lower number then the testing procedure from Mike Ricci that's been out on BT for some time?  Your method takes the avg hr over 30 minutes then you multiply it by .97, where coach Ricci's method is taking your avg HR over the last 20 minutes of a 30 minute testing window to come up with the LTHR.  Coach Ricci's method will have a higher avg hr number for LT.

    Thanks, and hope your feeling better!

      1st of all please be aware that all this testing protocols are estimates to try to set lactate threshold. The best test we could ever do would be to actually do 60 min riding all out and that would take the guessing out of the equation. Also it should be understood that HR is not a direct measurement of effort on the muscles, it only measures cardiovascular strain and it can be affected by other variables none related to the stress imposed.

    Finally please all notice that our bodies don’t really know training zones, that it zones it is something it was created (physiologists/coaches) to become more specific/efficient about the training adaptations we want to induced. But in reality our bodies don’t know when we are working at z2 and move to z3, I mean many things are happening in our muscles all the time that even when training at z4 we are still getting endurance and VO2 max adaptations at a lesser degree. What we seek with training zones is to maximize training adaptations and the best way to do that is by doing this testing to estimate our pace/power at threshold 

    Anyway, when the test it is 30 min I prefer to estimate threshold using 97% as I think it provides a better estimate. If the test was 20 min then I would use 95% for sure. The reality is that a few beats per minute here and there won’t make much difference not it would ruin your training. As I’ve been drilling on all of you all along is: training by power, HR or pace will always gives is an idea of what sort of intensity we are targeting, but we should always use RPE as the primary gauge method to know if we are indeed where we are suppose to be

    I hope that makes sense…

    2008-11-30 10:47 PM
    in reply to: #1792702

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    Extreme Veteran
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009
    Jorge,
    I'm looking forward to doing the test because I have never done it before. I looked at the testing protocol and I have a couple of questions. Do we just ride as fast as we can for 30 minutes straight? What cadence should we be looking for? I guess I'm wondering if I need to spin fast (90-100rpms) for 30 minutes or increase the resistance and ride for 30min. at a lower cadence? These may be silly questions, but again, I've never done this before so I don't really know what I'm doing! Thanks in advance! Aimee


    2008-11-30 11:53 PM
    in reply to: #1792702

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    Elite
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009

    Okay, I'll admit, I blew off week 2 of the trainer - just had to get outside before the snow blew in this weekend.

    Should I go through week 2 next week and do the week 3 testing the following week and have a shorter Christmas break, or just pick it up with week 3 Monday night?

    2008-12-01 4:35 AM
    in reply to: #1792702

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    Master
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009
    Jorge,
    I did the TT this morning and my HR is about 10 beats lower (166) than my HR during outdoor TTs last summer (177). I checked my race results, and my HR was closer to 177 during Sprints also. My legs are gassed. I suppose I could have squeezed a little more juice, but not 10 BPM. Does this sound right?
    2008-12-01 7:54 AM
    in reply to: #1831622

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    Coach
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009

    Aimee:

    Do we just ride as fast as we can for 30 minutes straight? >>> yes

    What cadence should we be looking for? I guess I'm wondering if I need to spin fast (90-100rpms) for 30 minutes or increase the resistance and ride for 30min. at a lower cadence? >>> Chose the cadence that feels natural/comfortable for you (anywhere from 75 to 100) cadence is not as important, what matters is that you exert and push your body throughout the test.

    Enjoy!



    Edited by JorgeM 2008-12-01 8:04 AM
    2008-12-01 8:03 AM
    in reply to: #1792702

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    Coach
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009
    One thing I think I might have forgot mention: I know I’ve mentioned before that it is important for you to always set up your trainer the same every time you use so you are reproducing the same conditions. By this I mean using the same resistance (tight the knob onto the wheel in the same way every time, i.e. what’s recommended by the trainer model), inflate your tires at the same PSI; set the trainer in the same place (i.e. garage, your room, etc), and always have good ventilation (fan, open window) and plenty of liquids handy. Well all this becomes even more important when testing; we want to try to replicate the same conditions every time we test so if you do it on the trainer make sure to do the above, if you test on the road try to repeat the test on the same conditions: same time of the day, similar weather, same PSI, etc. This makes it easier for you to compare results.

    If you are doing the test by HR on the trainer and you pay attention to the details when setting up your trainer, then you can have a rough estimate of what sort of speed avg you had during the test. When you re-test in the future and if you replicate the testing conditions then you will be able to compare your avg speed and see improvements.

    For those testing with power while it is important to also pay attention and always try to replicate the same conditions on your trainer, speed is not as important because we have a direct measure that will tell us if we are improving or not. (More power = improvements) But for those training with HR, their HR avg it is not going to increase over time, it will remain similar what will increase is the speed (power) we can produce given the same effort.



    Edited by JorgeM 2008-12-01 8:04 AM
    2008-12-01 8:05 AM
    in reply to: #1831678

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    Coach
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009
    peto_primo - 2008-11-30 11:53 PM

    Okay, I'll admit, I blew off week 2 of the trainer - just had to get outside before the snow blew in this weekend.

    Should I go through week 2 next week and do the week 3 testing the following week and have a shorter Christmas break, or just pick it up with week 3 Monday night?

    follow the plan from week 2 and if you feel you hadle the sessions ok then just go from there to wk 3, 4 etc.


    2008-12-01 8:13 AM
    in reply to: #1831731

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    Coach
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009

    monkeyboy64 - 2008-12-01 4:35 AM Jorge, I did the TT this morning and my HR is about 10 beats lower (166) than my HR during outdoor TTs last summer (177). I checked my race results, and my HR was closer to 177 during Sprints also. My legs are gassed. I suppose I could have squeezed a little more juice, but not 10 BPM. Does this sound right?
    Sometimes we do tend to produce a lower effort on the trainer than on the road for different reasons: the trainer might not be set up properly, the trainer has a small flywheel hence it is tougher for you to replicate the same power you can do on the road than on the trainer, IMO sometimes it is mentally challenging to push harder on the trainer or you might have been somehow fatigued this time around.

    If you indeed pushed as hard as you could have during the test then I would do this; I would set my LTHR between the result you had today and the one you had earlier on the year (i.e 171) and see how does that feel when training on coming sessions. If the effort feels just right use that until we test again, if it feels easy then use the 177 or if it feels too hard then use the test number. Compare this with RPE and within a few weeks you will be able to know where your true LTHR falls in. post here and I’ll help you out

    2008-12-01 8:14 AM
    in reply to: #1792702

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    Coach
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009
    How many of you are training only by RPE? (no HR or power meter at all?) I want to know if I need to post a protocol to test for those of you or not
    2008-12-01 8:38 AM
    in reply to: #1792702

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    Elite
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009

    Jorge,

    Is there a reason that the Q3 power tests this week differ from the 20min & 5min power tests you have posted on your blog?

    Thanks

    2008-12-01 9:05 AM
    in reply to: #1831948

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    Coach
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009
    GoFaster - 2008-12-01 8:38 AM

    Jorge,

    Is there a reason that the Q3 power tests this week differ from the 20min & 5min power tests you have posted on your blog?

    Thanks

    not really, they differ a bit due to the WU and CD (and some extra work on the MS) because we have been following a progression each week I wanted that all sessions on week 3 would be equal in length to set you up for the coming weeks in which most sessions will be closer or 1 hr. What matters for the tests is the 20 and 5 min when you are pushing as hard as you can.  The tests on my blog will remain there for anyone who wants to test their power any time they want, the ones on the cycling plan are bascially the same just following the progression and structure of the plan.

    As you learn you can see there are different ways to set a session but the core is bascially the same most of the time.

    2008-12-01 10:49 AM
    in reply to: #1831881

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    Master
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    NJ
    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009
    JorgeM - 2008-12-01 9:14 AM

    How many of you are training only by RPE? (no HR or power meter at all?) I want to know if I need to post a protocol to test for those of you or not


    I'd love to go all by RPE, I have a HRM but it needs a battery. I don't like gadgets and would love to know my zones/limits by feel alone.


    2008-12-01 11:58 AM
    in reply to: #1832031

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    Elite
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009
    JorgeM - 2008-12-01 10:05 AM

    As you learn you can see there are different ways to set a session but the core is bascially the same most of the time.

    Okay, will follow the plan.  Thanks Jorge.

    2008-12-01 12:18 PM
    in reply to: #1831881

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    Champion
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009
    JorgeM - 2008-12-01 8:14 AM

    How many of you are training only by RPE? (no HR or power meter at all?) I want to know if I need to post a protocol to test for those of you or not

    Well, i can do the test tomorrow with my HRM, but i need to send it away for a couple of weeks for repair. i'm somewhere in between, i suppose...
    2008-12-01 2:01 PM
    in reply to: #1792702

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    Elite
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009

    Jorge,

    New question.  What % of FTP would you suggest for the bike leg of a 70.3 race?  On my trainer I have the ability to ride my "A' race bike course for next year, so it would be helpful to see what time I manage at the moment, and then repeat this over the next few months.

    Thanks,

    Neil

    2008-12-01 3:13 PM
    in reply to: #1831881

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    Master
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009
    JorgeM - 2008-12-01 9:14 AM

    How many of you are training only by RPE? (no HR or power meter at all?) I want to know if I need to post a protocol to test for those of you or not


    I'm only training by RPE. Just let me know what I need to do and I'm there
    2008-12-01 5:40 PM
    in reply to: #1792702

    Expert
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009

    Did the test this morning. I had a really hard time keeping my watts up but then gunned it for the last minute. I felt weak right from the start. Could be my lack of bike fitness or could be all the crap food I've been eating this week

    It's all good though and obviously we'll be testing again so no worries.

     

     



    2008-12-01 9:39 PM
    in reply to: #1832031

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    Lethbridge, Alberta
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009
    I see that the FTP formula takes into account the length of time for each test when it compares the two. Does that mean I'll be all right with a 19 minute TT test? The ct programs don't like 'out of range' values. With a minute to go, I really started pushing hard and bumped my HR over the value I had entered previously as a max HR for the bike. When it went over, the computer program crashed. So, I only have my average watts up to 19 minutes. Please tell me I don't have to do it over again right away!
    2008-12-02 7:35 AM
    in reply to: #1832657

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    Coach
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009
    GoFaster - 2008-12-01 2:01 PM

    Jorge,

    New question.  What % of FTP would you suggest for the bike leg of a 70.3 race?  On my trainer I have the ability to ride my "A' race bike course for next year, so it would be helpful to see what time I manage at the moment, and then repeat this over the next few months.

    Thanks,

    Neil

    Short answer: somewhere between 80 to 87% of FT

    Long answer: it depends, I personally don’t like to give my athletes a % of FT to pace HIM or IM, and instead we use their training data from multiple long rides and race rehearsals. On long rides I usually make them ride harder than their race pace for portions of the ride and see how they respond. On race rehearsals we pick a zone range to ride based on training rides and then make them run off the bike at or near race pace to see how they feel. Also I consider the fitness gains obtained during tapering so the power tends to go a bit up once we are 100% recovered.

    Using all that data is how I set up pacing strategy for my athletes. In your case you are going to go through the same learning process when doing long rides for your HIM (2-3 hrs rides). You can start picking a % of FT (i.e. 82%) and ride a portion of your LR at that intensity and do a short transition run (i.e. 15-20 min) and see how you feel. If you can ride the entire LR at tat intensity and run off the bike with no problems bump the intensity up a bit over a few rides and try again. If you review your power data from all rides you’ll see a pattern emerge and you’ll have a better idea of what’s a good intensity, what’s doable and what’s suicide…

    2008-12-02 7:37 AM
    in reply to: #1833656

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    Coach
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009

    Micawber - 2008-12-01 9:39 PM I see that the FTP formula takes into account the length of time for each test when it compares the two. Does that mean I'll be all right with a 19 minute TT test? The ct programs don't like 'out of range' values. With a minute to go, I really started pushing hard and bumped my HR over the value I had entered previously as a max HR for the bike. When it went over, the computer program crashed. So, I only have my average watts up to 19 minutes. Please tell me I don't have to do it over again right away!
    yes! but no worries, you don't have to re-test until January

    You can certainly use the 19 min plus the 5 min test and the critical power model will give you and good estimate of your CP 60 or FTP

    2008-12-02 7:53 AM
    in reply to: #1792702

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    Coach
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    Subject: RE: Increase your Cycling Power over the winter = Faster times on 2009

    For those training only by RPE:

    To do the test you can follow the testing protocol I gave for those with power (shown below) but you will also need to take care of the following: You will need a speedometer and cadence so you can track your avg speed and cadence over the test. You more than anyone will need to pay a very close attention as to how you set up your bike for the test in terms of the trainer resistance and tire pressure. This will be VERY important so you can record that and reproduce it on future tests. You will also need to pay attention as to what gearing you mainly use during the test.

    Now most trainer companies offer power estimate tables on their websites so collecting the data of avg speed, cadence and gearing you should be able to estimate your power for the 20 and 5 min tests. Now if your trainer model/vendor doesn’t provide power tables, still you will save your test results for each test. For instance let’s assume you avg 20 mph @ 95 rpm on your 20 min test and 21.5mph @ 95 rpm on your 5 min test. Next time around when you re-test under the same conditions (trainer at same resistance and tire at same PSI) you can compare what avg speed, cadence and gearing you used this time around, if you have been following the plan and doing the work you should experience an increase in speed at a similar cadence with a harder gearing*

    You won’t be doing the test to set up training zones because for you the zones are already pre-established and easy to follow. You should know by feel what intensity is easy or hard as descried on the table I am following on my blog. The goal of the test is to collect some data for you to have a starting point and as the plan progresses and you grow fitter you can see the improvements and results of your hard work.

    * If you don’t set up your trainer under the exact same way you did on all your tests your data might not be accurate and your results won’t be reliable.

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