Baseball Hall of Fame Pitches a Shutout (Page 2)

I'd like to see some sources on that.  If true, the "juice" they were using was absolute garbage.  Compare the sizes/physiques of the '70's and early '80's sluggers with the monstrosities that began around the year Canseco and McGwire emerged ('87-ish).  Mike Schmidt, Jim Rice, Dale Murphy...Reggie Jackson...those guys were nowhere near what the scientists perfected in late '90's, early '00's freak shows of Bonds/Sosa/McGwire.

Heck, the drugs were so good, freakin Brady Anderson went from 16...to 50 homers in a season!

Everything I've read, said that the only PEDs going on in the MLB in the '70's were amphetamines.  How many HOFers back then have since admitted to using them?  Do we throw those "cheaters" out of the HOF too?  It's a difficult issue no doubt.

I have no problem with Sosa, Bonds, McGuire, Clemens, etc. not being inducted, ever.  Their baseball stats were inflated by their use of PED's.....there is no question about that, and since we don't know to what extent is helped their stats, they don't get in.  McGuire gets it.

Pete Rose is a different story....he's paid his penalty.  I agree that the HOF means nothing without the greatest ballplayer of his generation.

What about guys who doctored baseballs?

Guys who sharpened their cleats to spike players to discourage players from covering the bag when they were tagged out?

Guys who did amphetamines?

Well.....we don't know that any of the current members of the HOF used....and you are right, we don't know if Thomas used.  But we sure as hell know that Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, and McGuire used....and so do you.  The same way we knew Lance used.....and we don't have to beat that horse anymore.

You can say you don't actually "know" all you want......but you do if you followed along.  Like I said, McGuire gets it, so should the rest of us.

I think baseball has always had and should always have 
controversy woven into its fabric.

Babe Ruth wouldn't have been the phenomenon he was without
the Black Sox scandal coming first.

I mean, what other sport has two sets of rules?
Drives me nuts, but that makes being a fan that much better.
Gives you something to argue about. 

Baseball is suppose to break your heart.
It's the best sport ever created.  

I do feel bad for the community of Cooperstown.
They rely on the Hall of Fame Weekend for revenue.
Attendance is already down the past few years. 

If you haven't been to Cooperstown and like baseball even a little, then go!
If you haven't been there for a while, go again!

Cooperstown is the quintessential baseball small town.
Lot's to do there besides the Hall of Fame. 

The Hall of Fame is about recognizing the best of the best and saying they played the game the right way, THIS is how it was meant to be played.  And no matter what their inflated stats, cheating for year after year shows to me a complete lack of integrity, sportsmanship and character, especially when they'd be just down the hall from guys like Jackie Robinson and Roberto Clemente.

Griffey will get in. I think he's last on any list of potential Steroid users. I wonder about someone like Randy Johnson. He should easily be a first ballot kind of guy, but I'm not sure how much suspicion he is under.

It is clear that Bonds was not a PED user for his entire career. If you look back before he started bulking up, becoming a power hitter almost exclusively, he had hall of fame numbers. 

He should be in. 

I agree with the first part.  With Pete Rose, what gets him in a jam are the words "integrity of the game".  That's the rationale many folks use when they talk about why steroid users should not be admitted.  The problem for Rose wasn't purely the gambling: it was suspicion that he may have bet against the Reds while acting as their manager.  That certainly goes against the integrity of the game.

Of course I'll be the first to say the league isn't very consistent.  Read a little about the change in the spitball rule and the 17 players that were "grandfathered" and allowed to keep pitching that way.  Maybe the guys in our era should've been allowed to keep juicing since they built careers on it? :P

Akustix said it well re:  Bonds.  The guy was the best all-around threat in MLB before the PED/Incredible Hulk years.  Gold Glover, speed on the base paths, homers, and solid average.  

MLB made billions of dollars off of the freak show they were running in the late '90's, early '00's.  They KNEW a LOT of players were doping.  Comparing this to the Lance Armstrong situation is ridiculous.  Cycling made their rules clear.  MLB?  Please tell me I'm wrong.

I was going to make the same Lance argument.  Cycling knew everyone was doping but chose to do nothing about it.

They cheated.  Even if MLB ignored it they still cheated.  None of them deserve to to be in the HOF along with others who played the game clean.

That's not exactly what I said, re-read :P

Also just a thought to the previous posters: if you're considering Sosa, don't forget his 8 game suspension for a corked bat.

At least the steroid cheats could say "well, everyone was doing it..."

tri42 - 2013-01-10 6:43 PM

ChineseDemocracy - 2013-01-10 7:39 PM

Akustix said it well re:  Bonds.  The guy was the best all-around threat in MLB before the PED/Incredible Hulk years.  Gold Glover, speed on the base paths, homers, and solid average.  

MLB made billions of dollars off of the freak show they were running in the late '90's, early '00's.  They KNEW a LOT of players were doping.  Comparing this to the Lance Armstrong situation is ridiculous.  Cycling made their rules clear.  MLB?  Please tell me I'm wrong.

You're making it too complicated.... Lance and the 'Roid pack (yes you know who they are, it's who we're talking about) both cheated big-time. That's all there is to it. There doesn't need to be anything else said. They compromised the integrity of their sport. Who cares if people looked the other way or their respective sports needed a shot in the arm. It's insane to even think of any if these guys being in the hall of fame...... in MY OPINION. It's a simple right or wrong choice.

If it is as simple as cheating is bad and should keep you out of the hall of fame, should we remove Gayold Perry? He spent his entire career throwing illegal pitches and isn't exactly hiding it. His biography is titled "Me and the Spitter"

uclamatt2007 - 2013-01-10 9:07 PM

tri42 - 2013-01-10 6:43 PM

ChineseDemocracy - 2013-01-10 7:39 PM

Akustix said it well re:  Bonds.  The guy was the best all-around threat in MLB before the PED/Incredible Hulk years.  Gold Glover, speed on the base paths, homers, and solid average.  

MLB made billions of dollars off of the freak show they were running in the late '90's, early '00's.  They KNEW a LOT of players were doping.  Comparing this to the Lance Armstrong situation is ridiculous.  Cycling made their rules clear.  MLB?  Please tell me I'm wrong.

You're making it too complicated.... Lance and the 'Roid pack (yes you know who they are, it's who we're talking about) both cheated big-time. That's all there is to it. There doesn't need to be anything else said. They compromised the integrity of their sport. Who cares if people looked the other way or their respective sports needed a shot in the arm. It's insane to even think of any if these guys being in the hall of fame...... in MY OPINION. It's a simple right or wrong choice.

If it is as simple as cheating is bad and should keep you out of the hall of fame, should we remove Gayold Perry? He spent his entire career throwing illegal pitches and isn't exactly hiding it. His biography is titled "Me and the Spitter"

Dude....stop!  Gaylord Perry was cool!  We all loved watching him pitch and wanted to be him when we played in the back yard.  The spitball was bad-arse.  You cannot compare something so absolutely sublime as a spitball to using steroids.....geez....what are you doing? 

There is quite a difference between putting a bit of pine tar on your bat and injecting yourself with steroids.

I've never heard an allegation that he bet AGAINST the Reds at all. He admitted to betting on the Reds but was steadfast that he never bet against them. 

Pete Rose was clearly not a gambler his entire career...

I'm not saying that PED users shouldn't get in.  Frankly, I don't care.  But HoF voters seem to hold a grudge aginst players even if their careers were HoF worthy before doing something (gambling/PED use) that would prevent them from getting in.

Here's the problem I see: the really good clean players who WOULD have HoF-worthy stats, except that they're now compared against the steroid users.  The amount of cheating we're talking about had a significant impact on stat averages across the entire league.

What Pete Rose did (or was accused of doing) didn't really impact other players that way.