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2009-07-20 9:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
gopennstate - 2009-07-20 7:57 PM
I agree that 200 mpw of cycling ez pace is not the same as 150 mpw of cycling hard.

From my experience serious high volume bike riders are also pushing harder intensities than low volume riders. I'm sure there are exceptions but the assumption that those riding 200+ mpw aren't riding hard efforts doesn't make sense and isn't true in my anecdotal experience. (I'm not saying that you're making that assumption as you obviously did not in your post).

IMO, the same thing applies to running. I'm sure there are exceptions but every person I've known who has the fitness to do consistent 40+ mile weeks also has the fitness to be able to run a higher percentage of those miles at high intensity compared to a low volume runner.


2009-07-20 9:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.

I don't know guys, I mean I think I would put my money on a runner that averages around 10 to 15 miles per week but at a fast pace versus a runner that run 25 miles per week at their usual slow pace.  I believe that it is quality of long mileage not just quantity. 
Just my 2 cents worth.

2009-07-20 9:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
for optimal performance I try get a variety of running in - in a 2 week cycle do 6-8 tempo runs to 1 long, 1 speed, 1 hill day, 2-4 days rest/easyi

I do about about 15 miles per week while training for 5ks and sprint tris long runs are 10 miles - speed work is often at the track mainly 400 . 800 repeats

i do about 20 miles a week for a half marathon / HIM- speed work is largely fartlek - long run is 15 miles

i do about 25-30 miles per week training for marathons speed work is usually a quick tempo day and fast last half mile of runs - long run is slightly more time than race goal time at 1 min per mile slower than race pace - this is usually about 19-20 miles

Edited by bruehoyt 2009-07-20 9:58 PM

2009-07-20 9:57 PM
in reply to: #2297674

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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
It's not a black/white issue.  There is a quality aspect to all your workouts that has to come into play.  Just strolling along for x miles a week won't do much for you come race time.  You have to have a purpose to your workouts, and you have to be pushing yourself at some point.  Whether that's through a tempo run or through adding mileage you have to be pushing yourself in some form to develop some of the mental aspects required to run faster on race day.  For some people that mental aspect may come from doing speed work, for some it may come from pushing further distances, there's no 1 correct way to train.  There are solid guidelines, and the run more to run faster is a very good one, but don't over simplify this to the point that you think 25 miles a week of ez jogging is going to help you much in the long run. 
2009-07-21 12:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
it seems like common sense (not implying there is a lack of it in this forum) that since we will not use a fast twitch muscle but instead a slow twitch muscle at an extended period of time that if our stm has been trainned to with stand long periods of excersise, than if we need the stm to work at a higher speed for a shorter time it will have the endurance to do so....i think we can all agree we could run (at max speed) a 4 min mile the question is not whether we have the muscle capacity its whether we have the muscle endurance. which is why running longer and building muscle endurance increases our mile times (by which i mean faster)
2009-07-21 7:11 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
trix - 2009-07-20 8:42 PM i don't know....and i am confused also.

i have asked the same question.  i try to run close to 20 mpw.  i sometimes can sometimes i can't depending on schedule.  it would mean during a month i approach 70-80 miles.  2 months ago i did 67, last month 54 so far I am on great pace this month.

regardless, all my runs based on some of the coach feedback have been slow running 145-150 bpm which is z1-z2 for me.  the exertion is minimal i do 0 speed work. 

i don't feel like i have improved, my times are still in the 9:30-10:30 min / mile.  now when i did run my last sprint tri the 5k time was 22:38, so 7:30 min / mile.  so either i am still not running enough, or i don't know what else.  ALTHOUGH it does feel easier, time wise i am not seeing improvement.



I think you have/are becoming a slave to a HRM. You say that all your runs have minimal exertion. I am guessing if you want to use heart rate zones you need to check your zones again because not all your runs should have minimal exertion. I do not know what your times were before, but how can you be unhappy with a race at 7:30 pace when you train 2-3min slower than that. Training slow does not mean you go to slow for your body it is a relative number. I would hazard a guess that your zones are not correct and your easy pace run should be quite a bit quicker than 10min pace. The bulk of your running should not feel like you are exerting minimal effort. If you want to use a HRM then you should retest and update your zones. Go out there and vary your running up. If you are feeling decent hell run in z3 and don't be  afraid to hit z4 if there is a hill out there. Running more to go faster is not about staying in z1 and z2 all day long.


2009-07-21 7:43 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
matt_d - 2009-07-20 10:57 PM It's not a black/white issue.  There is a quality aspect to all your workouts that has to come into play.  Just strolling along for x miles a week won't do much for you come race time.  You have to have a purpose to your workouts, and you have to be pushing yourself at some point.  Whether that's through a tempo run or through adding mileage you have to be pushing yourself in some form...

There are solid guidelines, and the run more to run faster is a very good one, but don't over simplify this to the point that you think 25 miles a week of ez jogging is going to help you much in the long run. 


This makes the most sense to me.  And I guess I've always interpreted the 'run more' we so commonly hear, as 'go run more at ez pace', and that the increased mileage is largely what will make your run times drop.  And I've never understood why that trumped mixing it up.  It sounds like as more people are posting that 'run more' does not just imply 'run more at all ez pace'.  
2009-07-21 7:54 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
Here is how I break it down to my guys simplistically.

Think of it as a pyramid.  If your pyramid has a wide base, the peak can be higher.  If it has a small base, the peak cannot be as high.

Along with this analogy, you have base work at the bottom, tempo and moderate work above that and then speed work at the top. 
2009-07-21 8:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run fastefasterr.
Tri2leaRn - 2009-07-21 1:23 AM it seems like common sense (not implying there is a lack of it in this forum) that since we will not use a fast twitch muscle but instead a slow twitch muscle at an extended period of time that if our stm has been trainned to with stand long periods of excersise, than if we need the stm to work at a higher speed for a shorter time it will have the endurance to do so....i think we can all agree we could run (at max speed) a 4 min mile the question is not whether we have the muscle capacity its whether we have the muscle endurance. which is why running longer and building muscle endurance increases our mile times (by which i mean faster)


Well, it isn't that simple.  Interval training has clear benefits for endurance athletes.  For example, it helps improve muscular uptake of oxygen, stroke volume of the heart, and has other cardio-vascular benefits.  (See, for example, this article and the numerous references there.)  It is also said that there are other benefits, such as training the body to deal more efficiently with lactic acid, ad so on.  Finally, bear in mind that even marathon running does not rely exclusively on slow-twitch muscle -- type 2a fast twitch are involved to some extent, and those fibers can also be 'recruited' to behave more as slow-twitch fibers.

Anecdotally, I find that doing some harder intervals or tempo runs makes running faster for longer feel easier.

Plus, interval training is fun. Smile
2009-07-21 8:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.

I do think running MORE at EZ pace for better results also can't be applied that well for triathletes training <35 mpw (most of us.

I think this quote applies much more to pure runners, especially strong ones, who pretty much swear by this. When you're hitting 70+ miles per week, there's NO way that even more than a third, if not a quarter of those miles are much more than EZ aerobic pace. Pfitzinger's Advanced Marathoning book has programs from 55 thru 90+ miles per week, is used by marathoners as fast as 2:30 and below, and that never goes over 25% of miles of speedwork per week, and is usually less. In fact, most of the miles added on from the programs from 55mpw to 90+mpw are easy miles, without a big rampup in speedwork.

I think this is one of those quotes that is great for pure single-sport athletes but doesn't probably apply as well to triathletes in terms of fastest improvement. With our low tri running mileage, a higher percentage should be speedwork if you want to get faster.

And unfortunately, as true for triathletes compared to single-sport athletes, it will be hard to come close to your pure max running ability with a low mileage system, regardless of x-training. A coach or experienced training analyst will probably be able to best identify your run mileage "sweet spot" where the gains start dropping off significantly enough such that your time will be much better spent improving your other areas.



Edited by agarose2000 2009-07-21 8:34 AM
2009-07-21 8:37 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
I posted this hierarchy in another recent thread, just as applicable here.
My suggestions, in the order you should take them:

1. Run more. Four days a week is good, five days per week is better. Six if you can swing it. 30+ MPW. Most at Z2 pace.
2. Hills. Either within your regular runs, or if you want to get more structured, hill repeats.
3. Tempo runs at ~15K pace. Start with, say, 20 minutes, work your way up to 6, 7 miles. Once a week.
4. Strides. 100 meter "sprints" at 85%-90% effort with full recoveriy in between. Start with 5 or 6, go up to 10. Also once a week or so.
5. Intervals: 600m-1200m at 5K pace. Icing on the cake, fine tuning.


2009-07-21 8:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run fastefasterr.
Experior - 2009-07-21 9:25 AM

Plus, interval training is fun. Smile


MASOCHIST!!
2009-07-21 8:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run fastefasterr.
jsnowash - 2009-07-21 8:38 AM
Experior - 2009-07-21 9:25 AM Plus, interval training is fun. Smile
MASOCHIST!!


Yep. Fun in the same way that hitting yourself with a hammer is fun, because it feels so good when you finally stop.
2009-07-21 9:03 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run fastefasterr.
the bear - 2009-07-21 9:58 AM
jsnowash - 2009-07-21 8:38 AM
Experior - 2009-07-21 9:25 AM Plus, interval training is fun. Smile
MASOCHIST!!


Yep. Fun in the same way that hitting yourself with a hammer is fun, because it feels so good when you finally stop.


I admit it -- I don't do speed work often, but I love the pain.  I guess that does make me a masochist...never thought of it that way.

2009-07-21 9:44 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
For me, 9mo into this tri thing, I'm finding a 2:1 ratio works for my running.
I started at running 2mi at 10min/mi.  At that time, I could run 1mi at 9min/mi before puking.
Now, I'm at 4mi at 9:30min/mi.  At I can hit 2mi at 8:00min/mi without a problem.
I'm expecting at 6miles of 9min/mi, I'll be able to to 7:30min/mi for 3.1 miles.
That's the goal, anyways.

It only took plantar fascitiis in my right foot, and then lower knee tendon pain and 6 months of sucking to learn that I needed to slowly up comfortable mileage rather than just try to run faster.

Cheers,
steve
2009-07-21 9:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
trix - 2009-07-20 8:42 PM i don't know....and i am confused also.

i have asked the same question.  i try to run close to 20 mpw.  i sometimes can sometimes i can't depending on schedule.  it would mean during a month i approach 70-80 miles.  2 months ago i did 67, last month 54 so far I am on great pace this month.

regardless, all my runs based on some of the coach feedback have been slow running 145-150 bpm which is z1-z2 for me.  the exertion is minimal i do 0 speed work. 

i don't feel like i have improved, my times are still in the 9:30-10:30 min / mile.  now when i did run my last sprint tri the 5k time was 22:38, so 7:30 min / mile.  so either i am still not running enough, or i don't know what else.  ALTHOUGH it does feel easier, time wise i am not seeing improvement.


2 months is not a long time.  2 years is the time frame you should think about.  By then, that 20mpw could be 40 or 50.  And you WILL be faster as long as you maintain consistency and gradually build your training load.  You will see progress during that time, but it may not be as "clear" as you would always like.


2009-07-21 10:14 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run fastefasterr.
Experior - 2009-07-21 7:25 AM
Anecdotally, I find that doing some harder intervals or tempo runs makes running faster for longer feel easier.

Plus, interval training is fun. Smile


I totally agree with you on the point above.

I only do two types of run workouts. One is just comfortable pace. The other is simply two minutes at my goal open 10k pace and 2-4 minutes (depending on how strong I feel) of recovery at any pace I want.

I tweak the workout by doing a hard finish-like kick for the 10 seconds that my timer beeps at the end of each "on" period (I guess they're called "strides" from reading above). While the timer is beeping at the start of each "on" period, I ramp up to my goal open 5k pace, then back off to the 10k pace for the interval.

I enjoy these workouts more than just running a constant effort easy, hard, and everything in between. Since I enjoy them, I do them as often as my body can handle, which is more often as my fitness improves from ramping up to higher overall run volumes.
2009-07-21 10:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
This is just my personal experience:

I started distance running about 5 years ago.  I ran the Baltimore Marathon in 2005 year in 4:45.

.... I kept running - not doing any speedwork, just running - and I ran the National Marathon this March in 3:50.

The more I run the faster I get.
2009-07-21 10:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.

I'd strongly recommend to anyone wanting to learn more about pacing, running, and milage, etc. to pick up the book Daniel's Running Formula.  Its less than $20 at any major bookstore. 

Author Jack Daniels, who's coached running at all levels from high school through olympians, lays out chapter by chapter what physiologic body systems running at different paces addresses.  He also lays out what paces you should be training at, given your race performances.  He discusses what percentage of your volume should be easy, hard, etc. for maximum benefit.

If you're serious about improving, its really a must read.

 

And if you're wondering, going off memory, he recommends doing about 85% to 92% of run volume at easy pace for distance runners. 

2009-07-21 11:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
I think the confusion here is what is meant by running more. 20-25 miles is not it. When I was starting out several years ago, I was told by the Olympic Triathlon Team coach that I wouldn't see any solid gains until I was running a MINIMUM of 30-35 mpw. At the time I was doing maybe 10-15 and the thought of more than doubling my mileage was daunting. It took me a couple years to finally be able to work up to running that much consistently - not just once in a while. I had some nice improvement. I actually found that when I was running in excess of 40 mpw WITH NO SPEED WORK that my speed in races greatly improved. It took several more years for me to be able to run 40 mpw consistently. Last year at the age of 52 I averaged just over 50 mpw for the entire year. I set new PRs in every distance from 2 miles up to a solid BQ marathon. My typical training included no speed work, but I raced often and that was my speed work. After many of the shorter races - 5-10Ks - I would often do a recovery run of 4-8 miles, an hour or so after the race at an easy pace.

The point is that most people simply aren't running anywhere near enough to benefit from the run more to get faster method. Realistically 120-150 miles/month for 4-6 months will help most people. However, most people are time challenged so they look to circumvent the time needed for running more by doing speed work, then suffering the consequences of injury and/or soreness/muscle fatigue that leads to even less running.

Another point is that the running more method takes a long period of time to see the benefits and most people are impatient and give up before they get there. It's not something that a person can do for a week or two and see any real benefit. It takes many months of CONSISTENT effort and can take a year or more for some people.

BTW, this year I've been injured and running way less, and my speed in races has gotten slower as a result. My injuries started with a broken toe and escalated by unknowingly slightly altering my stride as a result.
2009-07-21 11:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
Donskiman - 2009-07-21 9:15 AM I think the confusion here is what is meant by running more. 20-25 miles is not it. When I was starting out several years ago, I was told by the Olympic Triathlon Team coach that I wouldn't see any solid gains until I was running a MINIMUM of 30-35 mpw. At the time I was doing maybe 10-15 and the thought of more than doubling my mileage was daunting. It took me a couple years to finally be able to work up to running that much consistently - not just once in a while. I had some nice improvement. I actually found that when I was running in excess of 40 mpw WITH NO SPEED WORK that my speed in races greatly improved. It took several more years for me to be able to run 40 mpw consistently. Last year at the age of 52 I averaged just over 50 mpw for the entire year. I set new PRs in every distance from 2 miles up to a solid BQ marathon. My typical training included no speed work, but I raced often and that was my speed work. After many of the shorter races - 5-10Ks - I would often do a recovery run of 4-8 miles, an hour or so after the race at an easy pace.

The point is that most people simply aren't running anywhere near enough to benefit from the run more to get faster method. Realistically 120-150 miles/month for 4-6 months will help most people. However, most people are time challenged so they look to circumvent the time needed for running more by doing speed work, then suffering the consequences of injury and/or soreness/muscle fatigue that leads to even less running.

Another point is that the running more method takes a long period of time to see the benefits and most people are impatient and give up before they get there. It's not something that a person can do for a week or two and see any real benefit. It takes many months of CONSISTENT effort and can take a year or more for some people.

BTW, this year I've been injured and running way less, and my speed in races has gotten slower as a result. My injuries started with a broken toe and escalated by unknowingly slightly altering my stride as a result.


Absolutely great post, esp. the bolded section.  I couldn't possibly agree more strongly with those statements.

I'm also in the camp that's still seeing continued PRs at all running distances as I get deeper into middle age (I'll be 50 next spring).  I'm no longer running 40+ mpw due to the demands of cross training for tri's, but the reality is that I had built to that kind of volume over a two year period as a full-time runner prior to starting to do triathlons and I saw big improvements in speed with increase in weekly distance over that period.


2009-07-21 12:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
i think the problem is for most definitely for me - time constrain.

i try to make sure i have 3 bike, 3 swim, 3 run workouts per week.  that is already taking up quite a bit of time and adding additional run to put me at least 20 + mpw would mean additional day, my off day or after a long bike ride which would be simply too much.

2009-07-21 12:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
trix - 2009-07-21 1:21 PM i think the problem is for most definitely for me - time constrain.

i try to make sure i have 3 bike, 3 swim, 3 run workouts per week.  that is already taking up quite a bit of time and adding additional run to put me at least 20 + mpw would mean additional day, my off day or after a long bike ride which would be simply too much.



That's all fine.  Then you are either not ready for more mileage yet or you will simply be limited in how much faster you can get.  You can still get faster over time on 3 runs and 20ish mpw, but you should not expect dramatic improvements once you have been running at that level for awhile.  You will "cap out" well below whatever your theoretical potential would be.  But, for now, just stay consistent at this level and you should gradually see improvements.
2009-07-21 1:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
JohnnyKay - 2009-07-21 12:43 PM
trix - 2009-07-21 1:21 PM i think the problem is for most definitely for me - time constrain.

i try to make sure i have 3 bike, 3 swim, 3 run workouts per week.  that is already taking up quite a bit of time and adding additional run to put me at least 20 + mpw would mean additional day, my off day or after a long bike ride which would be simply too much.



That's all fine.  Then you are either not ready for more mileage yet or you will simply be limited in how much faster you can get.  You can still get faster over time on 3 runs and 20ish mpw, but you should not expect dramatic improvements once you have been running at that level for awhile.  You will "cap out" well below whatever your theoretical potential would be.  But, for now, just stay consistent at this level and you should gradually see improvements.


I will gradually up my runs, running 3 x 6.5 miles per week is ok right now.  adding 1-2 miles or 10-15 min per run is certainly doable.

I hope to focus more on running and swimming once the off season starts....just don't know if I can committ to a full extra day right now and I much rather not give up my other workout, considering my swimming still needs sufficient distance to improve. 
2009-07-21 1:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Run more to run faster.
trix - 2009-07-21 2:37 PM
JohnnyKay - 2009-07-21 12:43 PM
trix - 2009-07-21 1:21 PM i think the problem is for most definitely for me - time constrain.

i try to make sure i have 3 bike, 3 swim, 3 run workouts per week.  that is already taking up quite a bit of time and adding additional run to put me at least 20 + mpw would mean additional day, my off day or after a long bike ride which would be simply too much.



That's all fine.  Then you are either not ready for more mileage yet or you will simply be limited in how much faster you can get.  You can still get faster over time on 3 runs and 20ish mpw, but you should not expect dramatic improvements once you have been running at that level for awhile.  You will "cap out" well below whatever your theoretical potential would be.  But, for now, just stay consistent at this level and you should gradually see improvements.


I will gradually up my runs, running 3 x 6.5 miles per week is ok right now.  adding 1-2 miles or 10-15 min per run is certainly doable.

I hope to focus more on running and swimming once the off season starts....just don't know if I can committ to a full extra day right now and I much rather not give up my other workout, considering my swimming still needs sufficient distance to improve. 


Like I said, that's OK.  We all have to make choices and work within our own constraints (even if self-imposed). 

I actually think it's good to 'plateau' at a given training load for awhile.  Adaptions will still take place over time.  Eventually, you will have to increase the load but that could easily take you until after the tri season when you have more time to focus on running anyway.
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