Drafting in the Olympics (Page 2)

I have never thought of it that way.  I always thought that if you are not a strong swimmer, and the first folk out of the water are also strong bikers, you will miss the pack and be left behind in the dust.  But I agree that if you are in the fast bike pack, it really all comes down to the run.  I personally shudder at the thought of draft-legal races but I sure love to sit on someone's wheel when I am not racing. 

Last year I volunteered at a draft legal race* and I assure you I saw many great atheletes!

* draft legal race was IMFL

Not trying to be the provocateur here, just trying to understand what's exactly wrong with the above statement, toward which most of the replies here seem to be directed. Like amine said, I've never done an ITU/drafting-legal race, have hardly watched much on television, so i am just trying to understand.

If you're a "strong swimmer," the best of the best, say, since we're talking about the Olympics, where's your advantage? Even a two-minute lead is going to quickly be overcome by the pack on the bike.

Likewise, where is the advantage to being a strong cyclist? Certainly there will be breakaways, like in road cycling races, but how often do they occur and at what detriment to the run? 

I understand that these are awesome athletes and it does take ability and effort to come out of the water in time to join the pack, then to stay with it throughout the 40K technical course. But I can't see where anyone can build an insurmountable lead on the swim or the bike, and wonder exactly how often do theses races not come down to "who is the best runner"?

They do.  But only after swimming hard for 1500m and riding a hard 40k bike.  Agreed that being an exceptionally strong swimmer or biker is less 'valuable' than being an exceptioanlly strong runner.  But you do get an 'advantage' in the former cases in that even if you are in the lead pack with the 'runner', you will have used up less 'resources' by T2.  That exceptional runner may have wasted themselves too much to access their strong run and might help level the field. 

Bottom line is that you need to be well above average for all 3 legs or you'll be toast.  But if you can run a sub-30 10k after a hard swim and bike, then you do have an advantage--you're the best triathlete. 

While often the strongest swimmers will have their lead erased on the bike or run, like in the TdF, breakaways occasionally work and each athlete needs to play to their strengths during the event.  Also, although a two minute lead should seem easy to overcome, it's not quite like bicycle racing with defined teams so it takes longer for the group to get organized and over a technical course, this can easily allow the small group of strong swimmers to stay away.  It doesn't often happen but every once in a while, it will.  Also, the benefit of coming out with the lead group and not having to chase at all on the bike is a benefit to anyone who is also one of the faster runners; for this very reason Simon Whitfield has worked to become of FOP swimmer even though he was able to win events being a second pack swimmer and strong cyclist/runner.

Cycling is similar; some athletes will try to break the group and on occasion will be successful; again with the peloton trying to get organized, especially a later breakaway will be able to get to T2 first.  Also, being a strong cyclist is going to be a huge advantage as the courses tend to be technical and there are attacks on almost every hill and out of every corner; if you can comfortably hold on the back of the group as other athletes tire themselves out, you may be able to out run them coming through T2.

Shane

That’s a fair question - The dynamics of ITU in general force athletes to be strong on all 3 sports to have a chance at a podium. Unless you can swim as fast as the leaders then your chances at earning a top place decrease significantly if you don’t. Why? Because any where between 5-20 very fast swimmers (sub 19-18 min for a 1.5k) will be ahead of you hence even if you come out ONLY 30 seconds behind you'll have to work either alone or with the 2nd group just to bridge that gap. If you accomplish that good; although you already wasted more energy that them and you might jeopardize your legs for the run. As a FYI - Great runners like Simon Whitfield had to work A LOT on his swim to become a strong swimmer just so he could remain competitive.

You could say fast swimmers maybe won't necessarily win the race but coming in the FOP increase your chances a lot while missing that pack decreases it by more. Yes a bigger pack might catch the leaders quiet easily or maybe they won't, it depends on how made the FOP, how many and how far ahead they are.

For strong cyclist, they also have to be strong swimmers so they can play their strength. YOne could argue that they could just come out of the water even 2 min down of the fastwer swimmers and work in a pack to catch them. The problem as I said above is that you don't know who was on the 1st pack and if they are also strong cyclists. For instance coming out on the 1st swim pack and if you have a good group of strong cyclists then you can work together to put pressure on the runners. If the runners missed the 1st pack you might be putting precious time between so you can win the race.

If the strong runners came out with the strong cyclists then they can make the runners work harder by attacking. Those who have done road cycling races know who hard these on the legs are, hence this might play in favor of the stronger cyclists. This happened at the world championship last year and IIRC the cyclists fried Gomez legs (the best runner in ITU racing) and by the time the got to the 10K he still posted a very fast run and finished 2^nd but he didn’t have his usual spark and lost to the German (Unger? I think)

I won’t deny that the majority of races are decided on the run, but that just happens to play that way because of the depth and pool of talent racing these events. Even on very tough courses (hilly terrain or technical) in theory one type of athletes should excel the truth is that world cups events bring the best of the best and there are always 20+ guys with great chances at winning and they can do so in any portion of the race (any leg).

These guys have to be at least very good at two sports and very strong on the 3^rd one. You never know the conditions in which you’ll race or how the terrain/weather might affect the dynamics of the pack; hence you have to be ready to race solid at all 3 sports in order to win. For that reason IMO and personal preference I admire these guys the most and believe they are the best overall triathletes. That is not to say I don’t like 70.3 or IM (I love the 70.3 distance and enjoy IM athletes a lot), in fact what the pros can do at long distances is as impressive to me as the ITU guys.

I could watch triathlons regardless of the format and distance all day, I am aware both have different dynamics/strategies and both have incredible athletes. But HIM/IM it lends a bit more to allow triathletes to be very good at one sport and maybe ok at the other two or even weak at one of the 3 sports.

I really don't understand why people have a problem with ITU vs Non-drafting events.  I mean it is just another way to participcate in the sport. Kind of like NFL vs Arena Football or Indoor vs Outdoor soccer.  Different rules that play to different peoples strengths.

Now will say I have only see a few ITU races on TV and they are very exciting since everyone is bunched up.  It does not look easy at all.

Question though.  Are these races only for elites?  At the Hyvee race I know there is an amature race but is it non-drafting?

AFAIK under USAT rules there is only one race that allows drafting for non-elites and that is the Armed Forces Championship because those athletes compete in drafting events at the international level.

In Canada we have some drafting events that non-elites can race but you need to be draft certified and the ITU rules about getting lapped is in play so you need to be fast in order to finish the race.

Shane

Not sure that Andy would disagree that you have to be a strong swimmer and cyclist to have a chance; since 2005 he has 4 ITU victories and 5 podiums.

I would disagree that the format of the race is wrong; it is fast, exciting to most and showcases athletes who are close to world class in each of the events.

Finally, as for the results being different, if that were the case and ITU athletes were simply hanging in for the run, they wouldn't have nearly the success they have when they do draft legal races.

Shane

The way I see it, is for the relatively strong swimmers and runners, there's no real advantage (usually) for taking a flyer and going off the front. Where the advantage lies is being able to cruise a bit relative to the rest of the field. case in point: Andy Potts is capable of a 16 minute 1500 (he went 15:38 in the '96 Olympic Trials). But he usually swims in the pack, at the front, in 17:30. That's a pretty pedestrian pace for him. So while he's cruising along, most of the rest of the pack is fighting and scraping to stay on his heels. So, as a result, he gets out of the water having expended much less energy--energy he can use in the rest of the race.

Perhaps a look at the Olympic womens race would illustrate the point better....

The women who did not come out of the swim in the lead group of 21 NEVER got back onto the main group in the bike, the women who could not hold the pace of the group in the ride never got back on, so were never in contention for the run...

Basically to be competitive you have to get out of the water with the strongest swimmer and hang with the strongest rider on the bike... then 'run scared'. Sure the run may determine the winner... but the bike and swim determine the non-winners/who is even in contention come the run...

Even in the longer distance non drafting races such as Ironman it is often the competitor with the stronger run leg who determines the winner... its just  what happens when that is the final leg of the race...

While the race was won on the run (that's the nature of our sport), in order to win Frodeno had to swim at 1:13/100m, bike at 40.7km/h on a technical course and then run 3:05/km in order to win by three seconds.  IMO, that is much more than a glorified foot race.

Shane

Ah, but a foot-race with a huge entry fee.....one that involves swimming as fast as the competition and not getting dropped on the bike.  If you can hang with the pack thru the swim and bike, then yes, it comes down to a foot race.

BTW, the same could be said about the marathon.  I watched the woman's marathon and the silver and bronze all came down to the final lap around the track.

The endurance bike event, after over 6 hrs on the bike, came down the the final 100 yards with a pack of about 10 riders.

And every single swim event came down to the final length of the pool.

Point is, the closer you get to perfection, the smaller the margins of victory becomes. 

:-)

~Mike

I don't think anyone is saying that these guys don't go fast in the swim and bikel.  That being said, it came down to a foot race.  Look at the two guys that tired to make a break on the bike.  They were appx 1 min ahead of the main pack.  And what did the get for all their hard work?  Ran down in the first 3K and finished no higher than 20th. 

I enjoyed the race but, ITU racing is a foot race for great swimmers and bikers.  

And we call athletes who are great swimmers and bikers who like to finish with a good foot race...triathletes!

Shane

I have to disagree with you.  Yes there were 6 guys together after one lap, then each lap they kept dropping them off.  They are not swimming and biking at pedestrian paces.  They swim to be out of the water in touch with the lead.  They bike as hard as you can imagine, just to make sure that anyone who was even a little behind coming out of the water cant regain contact.  Then when they have done that they still run a 5 minute mile in the 10k.  You can't convince me that by putting all 3 of those together can be considered a glorified foot race.