TOTW: Running.. A failure to train. (Page 2)

Marine or not... those are still Douche Bag comments... which tells me that your time in the service didn't teach you how to be supportive, just how to pass judgement on others... it's a shame, I would think someone as Noble as a US Serviceman wouldn't bag on someone like you did with your original post...

Congratulations, Sir!

Like I posted earlier.. there's nothing CONSTRUCTIVE about criticizing someone's race day effort... and there certainly isn't anything constructive about passing judgement on someone you see walking during a race..

So tell me, how exactly did you suppose this thread was going to progress? You would let your fingers vomit a while at your keyboard and everyone would tell you how brilliant and incite full your words of wisdom were?

You're TROLL man... you run around here, posting inflammatory remarks and asinine comments to people to get a rise out of them... and when you get a rise out of them, you tell them to "calm down"... I'm calm... You're a douche bag...

end of thread..

Are you making fun of my small stature? I'll have you know that 5'6" is NOT short...

and as far as "cultivating a little back and forth" is concerned... that depends on your perspective...

I guess you also agree that someone who walks during the marathon, or uses some other stroke than freestyle in the swim is also NOT worthy of completing an Ironman?

Forgive me if I'm off-track, but I think the point is NOT the someone who walks or uses a non-freestyle stroke is not worthy, but that they might have benefitted from a little more training.

I agree with you, Mrs. BD.  Training is the key. Many circumstances will dictate how you race, but undertraining shouldn't be one of them. You're setting yourself up for an injury...

While I would never undermine another person for walking the run (heck, if you're in my AG, i'm glad you're walking, since I get to pass you), it does make me wonder if they had a bad race b/c of undertraining.

Granted, I am not the fastest out there (especially on the bike), but I do try to make sure I can "swim the swim, "bike the bike" and "run the run"...

Seriously, this is ridiculous. I'm actually surprised nobody has said it before now. The mud-slinging and name calling is definitely NOT productive.

I think there is a key difference in the judgments being made. If someone keeps up with another person's log, day-to-day, and sees their running amount (or lack there of) then they can have an opinion about what they're doing. I don't think it's fair for anyone to make a snap judgment about what someone is doing on race day because you have no idea what they're going through. Maybe they didn't train, maybe their mom just died, maybe they have a running injury but had already registered........ My point is: as an outside observer, we have NO idea why someone chooses to walk all or part of the run. Like I said before, if they're walking and I'm running, I'm getting to the finish line first.

Stephanie, couldn't have said it better myself. The whole point of the thread is to discuss whether people "slack" on their run training instead of giving it the same respect as the other 2 disciplines. It's easy to say to yourself, well I'll just walk if I have to. Where in swimming or biking you can't really use that "excuse" Ron is not saying people who walk in a race aren't worthy, hell I've seen him walk in a race. He's just saying, don't use it as a crutch. And as for the name calling, you sir are the only one doing it so perhaps you'd like to try and convey your point with words instead of insults.

No need to get riled up but the fact of the matter is that you are suppose to run in the run portion of a triathlon. It is swim/bike/run. Not swim/bike/walk.

 On the swim you HAVE to swim. Who cares what stroke--breast, free, back, fly whatever are all still called swimming. On the bike you HAVE to ride your bike. You wouldn't get off and walk it through the course. So it does stand to reason that on the run portion you RUN. Walking is NOT running no matter how you look at it. Heck, in the Olympics they even have a classification for it : it is called speed walking. And yes, as silly as that looks some of those speed walkers were putting up a 7 min pace. But those that I've seen walking in a marathon are NOT speed walking. They are doing something that looks more like the walk of shame. And that is because either they are injured, ill, or most likely, undertrained.

But since I don't think it  says in the "rules" that you HAVE to run --though I do think it is implied that you should--you are still a triathlete so long as you cross the finish line. Similar you are a marathoner even if you walk an entire marathoner.

 But just to be clear: I do think that you should train so that you can run the run portion. And really I think that was Ron's point. I personally would only call him elitist if he was expecting everyone to run sub 7 minute pace. But he said nothing about pace. So be it 12 minute miles or 6 minute miles just run them is the point.

atl_runner - 2008-09-10 10:28 AM

autigers_1998 - 2008-09-10 9:49 AM

Seriously, this is ridiculous. I'm actually surprised nobody has said it before now. The mud-slinging and name calling is definitely NOT productive.

 

I think there is a key difference in the judgments being made. If someone keeps up with another person's log, day-to-day, and sees their running amount (or lack there of) then they can have an opinion about what they're doing. I don't think it's fair for anyone to make a snap judgment about what someone is doing on race day because you have no idea what they're going through. Maybe they didn't train, maybe their mom just died, maybe they have a running injury but had already registered........ My point is: as an outside observer, we have NO idea why someone chooses to walk all or part of the run. Like I said before, if they're walking and I'm running, I'm getting to the finish line first.

ok, no more name calling.

Your second point is exactly how I introduced this thread. I read race reports, and look at logs, of athletes around the country, not just ga. We have our share here, but this is a trend all over the place. Of course there are several reasons someone might end up walking, and I never judge someone on the course.. cause you just don't know. My assessments are after the fact, and only when written and observed in a log. It's a trend I am seeing, not just an individual. That's why I titled it a failure to train. Cause thats what I am seeing. I'm not just pulling this out of my butt because I happen to like running. 

In the end, if one person ends up walking on the run of a triathlon, and they are not 1. new to the sport, or 2. Injured.. as specified earlier, if they reflect back to this thread and make minor adjustments to their training, then I am satisfied.

I think NatNegative summed it up best. Really, it could not be said better.

Overall, I think this thread has been successful. 

I still disagree with you on this Ron....and this is speaking from several years of coaching athletes of all shapes and sizes.

If you interviewed 20 experienced athletes about the run portion specifically I would bet that you find most of them are not very close to their open time for the same distance, and it isn't due to run training but rather swim/bike fitness and most of all pacing on the bike. I'll go a step further (farther?) and use myself as an example:

Sprint: 5k open 20:34 (1/08)  5k triathlon 20:24 (9/08 Peachtree City)

Olympic: 10k open 41:30 (4/07)  10k triathlon 45:xx 7/08 Chattanooga

HIM: 1/2 Mary open 1:32 (3/08)   1/2 triathlon 1:50 5/08 Gulf Coast

What that data tells me is that my problem is bike fitness and pacing and not run fitness. The sprint distance is the only one where I have come close (or beat) my open time and I believe that is due to the fact that I can hold Threshold Power/HR + for 30 min or so and then get off and run. At Chattanooga and Gulf Coast I pushed the bike too hard in order to stay competative and it cost me on the run. As a result I am spending MORE time on the bike and training with a Power Meter now in order to raise my bike fitness level so I can hold 23 mph for a HIM and still run ~7min miles off the bike.

Running more (or for that matter swimming or biking more) is not the answer in all cases.

I wasn't trying to be productive..

you're absolutely right, mud slinging doesn't get anyone anywhere..

here's my counter to Ron's original post :

You may be right that walking during an event is a sign of training deficiencies, but given all the reasons that a person could be walking during an event, you probably AREN'T right..

as Brett touched on, even training properly, but not managing your output during an event can put you in the walking category towards the end of the race, and I've certainly seen professionals walking during stretches of their races, and I'm certain they are worthy of their Ironman status so I'll leave you with this..  

Try to refrain from passing judgement on others because of your limited observances of their behavior.  You don't know the struggles they face, you don't know the obstacles they've surpassed, and coming in here and passing judgement on someone else based on the 40 seconds you saw them during one race is ridiculous.. 

Ron, sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone think you're an idiot, than to open it and remove ALL doubt...

good luck in your training.. I'd absolutely HATE to hear that you ever had to walk in another of your own race day efforts..  

I could be wrong but I think you are both sorta saying the same thing. Of course your swim/bike fitness effects your run. If you solely trained on the run you shouldn't expect to get to the run and have a great race. The thing is, people focus on the swim and bike more than the run. You mentioned earlier about spending a certain percentage of time on each discipline and I think you're right about that. The bike obviously takes more time than swim/run so your graph will show more hours spent on the bike. There is always going to be one area where you just can't fit in the training(unless you don't work and have all the free time in the world), for me it's swimming. I do enough to get through it but by no means am I as trained as I could be. This thread however, deals with run training. I happen to not skimp on running but I think the point of the thread is that a lot of people do. That they fall back on, well I can just walk.

I'm walking into the middle of this, but I wanted to answer the OP's questions. 

When I first got into running and triathlon, I was a total newbie (and really, still am).  I tried to follow a training schedule of sorts, but really just fumbled my way through it.  I was excited to try something new. 

Now, when I was HM and full marathon training, I never missed my long runs and always progressed the mileage up carefully until I hit the 26.2 mile mark.  Yes, I ran the full distance in preparation.  But I missed many mid-week runs and totally felt the effects on the weekend long run.  I did not train to my full abilities and I ran-walked the marathon (a la Galloway, but not in a group, on my own and on the right-most side of the course).  I finished, and I was proud of myself.  But I did wish that I had trained more so that the race was a really positive experience.   I had 2 more marathons after that, both similar in training. 

Now when it comes to tri, last year, my training sucked.  I missed workouts all the time.  I just wanted to do it so badly that I fumbled my way through 3 sprints.  I always completed the swim, biked the bike, but would have to run-walk on the run.  This year, things have gotten better.  I am working with a coach, getting all of my workouts in and am seeing great improvements in my fitness.  

I guess you could say that I am finally doing it the right way (for me).  I am learning that putting in the work will pay you back in dividends.  Figuring out the nutrition is a HUGE part of racing.  I have a long way to go, and still consider myself a newbie, but I do know that when I get out on the race course for my first HIM, I will push through with all I have and run as long as possible for 13.1 miles.  If I do have to walk, it'll be a lesson for next time and show me what I need to work on.

So, to answer your questions - 

Your thoughts on Bike Training VS Run Training? I train at least 2x per week for each sport, along with bricks on the weekend.  I think my bike fitness has helped my run fitness, at least lately.

If applicable, why your run training is less than it should be.  I really don't want to injure myself.  I am still a slow runner and I want to ramp it up carefully.  But I try not to ever miss my long runs and I ramp these up a mile at a time. 

Have you walked in any Triathlon? If so, why do you think that happened? Yes.  And I'm ok with it because that's where I was at the time.  To be honest, I was much harder on myself than any other racer would have been, so I don't really care what other people think about my abilities (well, sometimes I still do, but I'm learning not to care so much).  I really think that people weed themselves out over time.  Either you love it or hate it.  If you love it, you are naturally going to get better, train harder and be more honest with yourself about your abilities.  But I'm really glad that I had the opportunity to get into this sport and be welcomed by others so that I could get where I am today.

I've read the posts.. I saw in your initial and follow up posts that you admitted to walking and i'd submit to you that the walking is more often attributed to an athletes inability to assess/manage their own sustained effort over a given distance..

I've spoken with countless triathletes over the years and it's usually not a lack of training that has them walking at the end, it's more often that they pushed their self harder during the first two legs of the race and didn't have enough left for the final leg.. Run training catches the eye of the onlooker not because it's necessarily the reason for the walking, but because it's the last leg of the race..

If it were swim, run, bike we'd be here talking about bike training..

and if it were Run, Bike, Swim they'd be pulling bodies out of the water...

Wow.  I am scheduled to do my first tri on the 20th and after reading this, feel I will hang my head the whole race.  I have trained via Galloway.  I completed a half-marathon in May using his method.  I did not change my run training methods when I was encouraged by personal trainer in July to do a triathlon.  Granted, I know that I am not as good as the running purists and have often felt 'less than' when I slow to a walk, but having it confirmed that others view me as weak as they pass me by is difficult to swallow

In response to the real topic though, yes, I have definitely skimped on the run training for my first tri.  The other two components of the race are completely new to me.  I knew I could survive in water, but have never really "swam." I hired a swim instructor.  I had not been on a bike in years and purchased my first road bike on which I have spent some frustrating sessions learning the basics of shifting and of getting out of the pedals in time.  My focus has been in those two areas.  I figured I knew how to put foot in front of the other to complete the final leg. 

But a bigger truth...I am not passionate about running and so I probably do use the Galloway method more as a crutch than to be able to "run injury-free." At this point, it is too late to change my training method, and you will pass me as a walk on the far right whenever my interval watch tells me too.  If I decide to go forward after this race, I will definitely think more about the attention I pay to the run training as well as extending the distance run versus walked.  Who knows, maybe I too will one day run the whole course.

Suzanne

Not productive ... Ron Redding, who may not have been active on BT for a while and pulled back from being a founding member of NAMSC due to a spinal injury sustained at a pool, is anything but a Troll.

He just took umbrage to:

and,

while following the instructions provided here:

As a Marine you ought to congratulate Ron for following the instructions given so well.

In all seriousness, this sport has enough elitism about it to fill a whole forum Slowtwitch.  BT is a different animal where we do not scoff at people's limiters.

I have seen Ron run.  It is his limiter  ... and I also know that he works hard at it.  Not only as an athlete but as a coach, you should know how frustrating it is to work on limiters.  For them to see someone diminish their efforts - and accomplishments - should they fall short of full fledged success might indeed set them off.

That said, the real topic at hand (without the incendiary speak) is whether enough attention is paid to the run ... and the debate prior to this was the affect the previous two efforts had on the third.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

As a newbie it was easier to ramp up my bike fitness.  Basically, once I hardened up my back side I could ride for 50 miles without any injuries.  Running is a different animal.  It takes years to build a good running base when you are coming off the couch.  I spent a year running about 10 miles a week and going from one injury to the next.  Every time I got better I would add distance and pace until I was injured again.  Since it only took me a year to work through this, I consider myself gifted. 

Most people get into this sport with a background in one of the three disciplines, basic knowledge of another discipline, and nothing in the third discipline.  If you come in with no running experience it is going to take some time to build up the running miles without injuring yourself.  I think this leads to a lot of people going into races with low run training.

I've been torn about whether or not to reply to this thread.  For the most part I've enjoyed just spectating but I can't resist any longer.  Besides, what I've wanted to post happens to be in line with Dougs post.

There really has been no accounting for progress in this thread.  While my training has been lacking, I'll use myself as an example anyway.

Last year, in my first sprint tri I did walk a bit of the run.  In all of my sprint tris since I have not walked and in my most recent sprint I ran past aid stations b/c I didn't want to change my pace.

In my first Oly I walked quite a bit...by the time I got to my last Oly (Chattanooga) I walked just a small fraction of what I walked in my first Oly.  Also, I suspect that I'm probably at the point that I could get through an Oly run w/o walking now.

In a couple weeks I'll be doing my first HIM.  I WILL be walking.  I know that from the couple bricks I've done.  While I'll probably walk quite a bit, I hope that next year I'll walk much less in a spring HIM and maybe not at all in a late summer HIM.

I suspect that I'd still be 60 lbs heavier and on the couch if I ever thought that I couldn't walk at all in a triathlon. 

well.. I thought I could leave it alone but I guess I can't...

I didn't bring it to a personal level.. you did RT when you started the thread.. you told people that they aren't training hard enough..
and why is that personal? it's personal because they have to measure the time they spend training as time away from family, most of us work and that too is time away from family.. most of the weekend warriors here have to balance work, family, training, and family time...work is usually the immovable object, while training and family time compete with sleep for the remainder 2/3 of our day..

and you're telling people that they are spending too much time with their family, they need to get out and run train more..

and to me... that's personal..

more importantly.... to the last few posters on the thread still new to the sport.. don't let ATL Runner's superiority complex get you down... you'll do fine, more importantly, whether you walk or not.. when you're finished, you'll look back at your accomplishment and think..

DAMN!, I JUST DID THAT....

and you'll swell with pride.. and hopefully forget all about the post that started this thread..