Running frequency and IM training (Page 2)

Great thread.

Just wanted to add my experiences from last year training for IM Cozumel. I never did piles of volume, but did lots to 5-7x week running. Did a lot of short easy runs and generally kept my "long" run on Thursday and my longer rides on Saturday and Sunday.

Also, my longest runs were less than marathon plans called for, I think 3 hours was about my longest.

I suited me well and I did Cozumel in 12:37. My run wasn't great, but then again, I am not a great runner.

No experience with it, but I would be very cautious in doing so.  Adding a 5th run is great.  But better to keep it easy and save your hard efforts for the bike.  A track workout is likely to have only marginal benefits versus an easy run for your IM and comes with both greater costs (recovery) and risks (injury).

I tried doing some track work in my IM build last year.  Don't recall how many x/week I was running, but mileage was up around 40 mpw.  I won't do that (track work during IM training) again.

IMO and IME, track workouts are best saved for a run-focus portion of the year.  Once you're into IM training, track workouts aren't very constructive for most of us.  Better to focus on durability/miles.  If you are up to it, throw in some extra ~tempo work.  That's more than enough speed work for an IM.

FWIW, my best stand alone marathon (3:33 compared to 4:10 and 3:55) came from running 3 times a week.

I realize that IM training and marathon training are completely different animals, but I don't necessarily think more is better. FOR ME, with my life, and my body, there's no way I could run 5 or more times a week and still get in adequate swim and bike training, and maybe more importantly, adequate recovery.

Totally agree that what works for one may not work for another.  I've reluctantly resigned as BarryP evangelist, and only provide info about how to do it when someone asks me how.  I personally believe that MOST people would benefit tremendously from that style of training, but don't get on my soapbox because, as you suggest, many people can't schedule it and a few people might not benefit from it as much as they would from a less frequent/harder schedule... in other words, a few people can do the short/hard thing and avoid injury, and for them I say go for it.  I hope that it was clear from my post that I'm not advocating it as THE WAY, but recognizing that it is A WAY to be very successful for many people... and then providing tips for how to do it.  What we have time for is a matter of priorities... everyone has time for what is most important to them. 

Items 2-3 on your list... I was lucky enough to have a supportive family and a flexible work schedule to allow high volume run training, though I did things to minimize the impact of my training time on both.  Most of my long runs were finished by 6:30AM.  Yes that meant I sometimes started at 4:00.  That requires sacrifice by only me.  Family didn't feel the difference between bike commuting and train commuting.  I still worked more than 40 hours per week, but did take leave on several afternoons for some extra workout time.

But without a doubt I had time to train like that because I made training a priority above certain social events, other hobbies (my wakeboard is still mad at me), sleep (be careful), and leisure.  I watched almost no TV, was generally in bed after and up before my wife, finished many of my workouts before the sun cracked the horizon, attended very few happy hours, etc.  It was all about managing priorities/time.

I will add that I do not have any children.  I'm not sure my schedule could have accomodated high volume run training if I did.  And if you know my story you'll know my marriage didn't fair very well either... but I don't think that was because of the training, but rather the training may have been because of the marriage issues (ie, an unhealthy escape from and denial of my problems). 

I'm happy to report I'm nowhere near a 10:20 IM now, but happily married.  It's all about balance, and while I corrected an imbalance high volume training would have been impossible (to answer your question, it was not sustainable for me at the time).  I do think it's theoretically possible for me to be balanced in life while doing high volume training, however.

And lastly, your item 4.  I strongly believe that the high volume run training plan greatly REDUCES incidence of injury, if executed correctly.  Many people afraid of the high volume think their bodies couldn't handle it.  I'm the poster child of a chronically injured runner for a decade who finally got really injured (bike crash), allowed everything to heal completely, and then started from scratch and built to volume that was 3x as high as anything I'd ever done while injured, without getting injured.  It took discipline and focus to not go too hard for months while I was building... but it eventually paid off.  In other words, my running economy eventually got to the point where I could do the type of runs that used to injure me, but avoid injury and reap the training benefit.

The key takeaway for me is that the strategy is high volume through frequency; not necessarily high single run volume.  Avoiding injury should always be the #1 goal, and a large part of that is knowing when to back off.

Agreed 100%... that was implied in my "executed correctly" comment... as was easy pacing during the build.

Thank you for the responses regarding the possibility of a track workout.  I know that when I was doing that type of thing a few months ago it wrecked me for a day. I was thinking that it would probably not be a good idea during IM training, but was considering maybe I just needed time to adapt or something. To be honest, I would really rather add another bike if anything. I am going to wait and see how I feel in 4-6 weeks...see if I have the energy when the volums gets respectable (to add a bike).

On another note, I will say that since I've been doing a BarrP style running program the past few months, the run load so far in IM seems light.  I actually like that because so far I've been able to complete the runs without being completely destroyed after each run day. This was not the case when I first started tri training last summer.  Basically the BarryP program (while doing almost no swimming and biking) I feel helped me get a solid base and actually made me faster.  As much as I'd like to keep that up, I'm fairly certain that much running would "cost" too much for me in terms of family mostly. As someone mentioned earlier, even a 30 minute run "costs" me an hour...more if I have to do it on the treadmill at the gym.

Great thread, I'm enjoying reading posts from everyone and learning all I can...thank you.

So far I have not upped my mileage much since I created this post; however my legs feel alot fresher than they did when I was doing 3 or 4 runs a week.  Last week I took a few days off due to a hamstring pull while cycling.  The result of not running in 3 days was my legs felt like they had weights in them the next run.  I'm not getting faster, but I am running in the heat now and I typically feel pretty fresh when I'm done.

I generally push really hard on the bike and don't worry too much about the intensity on the runs since my focus is building volume.

I’ll add my 2c to this thread since I've tried both approaches to run training since I started this crazy sport.  But let me first say that I think what Jorge said is probably about as close to what you need to consider when making decisions regarding your training. 

Rewind to 2006 when I started the sport. I was running the 3 to maybe 4 runs a week.  

So it began: 
Calf tear
ITB inflammation
Pirirormis tightness
Lower back pain
Hip issues
Mental stress due to above injuries

I simply don't like running but I HATE running when I try to run on the "Triathlon" approach of 3-4 runs a week and I am constantly hurt. 

Fast forward to 2010-2011.  I was trying to come back from every lower body injury under the sun.  I was feeling good but not really putting large volume in on the run.  I start to slowly ramp my miles back up under the 3-4 runs a week approach, enter Plantar Fascia issues.  Now I've had enough.  So I dig up the old thread off slowtwitch from 2006 al la Barry P.  I remember reading it way back when but just thought running 6+ times in a week is stupid.  As it turns out I have close friends that actually know the guy and ran with him in college.  So I take a risk and fire off an email to the guy to review my running.  I make the commitment to run 6 times a week while training for upcoming 70.3 races.  Not reducing my bike or swim volume but “fitting” it all in.  I first think; how am I going to run 6 days a week?  I hate running and I am hurt only running 3-4 days a week. 

I take the plunge and re-write my plan for the season.  The first two weeks it was tough.  I started very slow and with low miles using the 1:2:3 approach. (One long run, two moderate run, three easy recovery runs)  

What I can tell you.  I've squeezed in the runs every week no matter what.   I am no longer hurt and I have not missed 1 run in about 15+ weeks.  My legs feel stronger than they have ever felt in the time that I have been doing this sport.  Almost all of my volume and miles are moderate aerobic intensity.  I listen very closely to my body and how I feel.  When I need to run hard I do it.  My bike fitness seems to be coming along faster than normal as well and I am not really riding as hard as I did in previous years.  Mostly all moderate type aerobic efforts.  I’ve dropped almost 20lbs since January and I think it’s a direct result of the more is better approach.  It’s still hard to say if I’ll be faster than I was in previous years.  But to me I don’t care.  I weigh less and I feel great.   I’d rather run injury free and not have to worry about missing training because of being hurt.  I’d rather slow it down and pay my dues now…to arrive healthy on race day and show up to the start line with a positive mental focus. 

....

For someone who's said "all he's got" you apparently got a lot more to say!

Agree with the other JK that runs are the most sneak-in-able.  I can't sneak in a pool or bike visit without much pre/post logistics issues.

I'm also a huge fan of BarryP and I spent the past few months running 6x/week with great results.  My IM training has me running only 4x/week. Out of curiosity, are you going to keep doing 6x/week while IM training and just find a way to fit it in?

I might contact Barry or re-read some of his articles later on down the line and see what he has to say.  I'm a total convert though.  Two years of constant injury (every 3 months like clockwork) and I've finally beat that particular beast.