Ironman Race Nutrition (Page 2)

No water at all? And, do you think it (dehyradtion) was simply  a lack of fluid, not nutrition?  What will you do differently in your next one  

I just can't imagine getting by on GE and gels alone. As noted above, I've had issues w/ just that in the past. 

I'm trying to remember if I started the bike with water.  But otherwise it was all GE until the run.  There I did some water along with the GE & coke (though still mostly the latter two).

I'm pretty sure dehydration is solely due to lack of fluids. 

I actually expect to get dehydrated in races.  I have some idea of my sweat rate.  And basically there is no way that I can drink enough to compensate (body couldn't process it fast enough and would end up getting bloated).  That said, I can drink more on the bike and in hindsight that's where I should have consumed more.  By the time I need it on the run, the only way to get it is to slow down.  I also think it's why I do relatively better in colder weather racing.

Wise-A$$ I guess what I'm curious about is wether or not one's body breaks down sooner because of a lack of proper nutrition not simply hydration. I don't get into researching that kind of stuff and w/o spending countless hours researching it I relied on Hammer's literature and thankfully Perptuem seems to provide that extra that I don't seem to get from GE. I think Perp will allow me to KIRSS - Keep It Relitvely...

That's worked for me on later half of a HIM. I've found even alternating 3 hours of GE and water is too much for my stomach so I use Perp in the first bottle (1.5 to 2 hours). 

Thanks and based on this thread I'm thinking that is what i'll work up to in training. Perp and water for the first 56 miles. Skip special needs, then GE and water for the 2nd half and continue that until I shuffle, walk, crawl SPRINT around the Olympic oval

Not sure about the "break down".  I don't believe I faded at the end principally due to nutrition, but due to fitness.  Dehydration played a role, but it was mostly going out just a bit too hard early in the run.  Basically, I think I was maybe 10-15 minutes off hitting my day "just right".  Take a few more minutes in the first 10k or so and save a whole bunch in the last 10k.  I think I got off the bike close to "just right". The only exception being that I should have been a bit more hydrated at that point.

Of all the posts on this thread, I tend to agree with Jorge's post the most.  I think most people over estimate how much they need to take in during the race.  Further, I think it's a balance between fitness, pace and nutrition.  People over estimate their fitness, try to go to fast and make up with nutrition.  You have to judge how much you need during a race not just with how far you're going to go but how fast which determines how much you can digest.

As Bryan said you don't get to test this until the race. What works in a 1/2 doesn't work in a full.  I think another problem is walking the rest stops.  Most people only do this during an IM, which gives you a chance to ingest a lot more then you are used to during a training period.  I'm guessing most people don't walk once a mile to drink a glass of GE or water during training.  This was my problem during IMLP.

I wish I could live off the course like most people but I know that GE will make me feel like crap.  I don't do well with a lot of sugars and seem to do best with Hammer products.  Of course at Lake Placid, I started sucking down GE on the run like a frat boy at an open bar.  Oh well, live an learn.

Ernie 

First and foremost.  Bryan is a ROCK STAR in my book.   

Yeah, KISS is a good thing. That's the first thing they teach you in the military...simplicity...not making out.

I have the gut of a little butterfly so I need to stay all liquid for my IM nutrition. I too believe that the only thing you shouldn't have to rely on your special needs bag unless, of course, you get 2 flats and are lucky enough to get the 2nd flat next to your special needs bag.

I ended up making two 4 hour bottles of perpetuem. While, yes, I placed the 2nd bottle of perpetuem in my special needs bag I had a "backup" in the event I couldn't find or didn't get my special needs bag for some reason.

This "backup" was in the form of 4hr powder of pertetuem in a zip lock stuck in my jersey pocket (see photo) since all I'd then need is some water from the course.

Also, notice that my water bottle is TAPED shut (black duct tape) so if I ever drop it or get in a wreck, the nutrition won't get wasted on the street in the event the top pops off.

I ALWAYS kept H20 in the aero bottle and a gel flask in my back pocket for good measure...which I never end up using until the run.

 (sorry for the photo size...I couldn't figure out how to shrink it down further.)

(bike photo 1 small.jpg)

That would be me!!!  I wish I paid more attention to nutrition during training.  I used to believe that I had a strong stomach and I could handle anything under any condition.  I finally learned the hard way that this is not the case.  I had huge GI issues during my first and only IM (CdA) to date.  I spent close to 30 minutes in port o potties over the course of the day.  While I was physically ready for IM CdA, I ignored the fourth discipline.  My guess is this specific lack of preparation cost me as least an hour, maybe even two on race day. 

Before IM CdA (my first) this past June, I had plenty of marathon experience, 3 centuries, and lots of training rides under my belt.  In all of those training ride or races, I never had GI issues.  So, I figured nutrition wouldn't be a big deal on race day as long as I was taking in enough calories. 

Flash forward to race day:  I did everything new and ignored what has been preached on this site - NOTHING NEW ON RACE DAY! I ate a 2 am meal of oatmeal which I had never done before.  I took in 2x3 times the amount of liquid that I usually do, etc etc.  My body was gassy and bloated even before I got to the swim start.  I've also recently learned that my body doesn't react well to sports drinks after an hour plus of exercise. 

So, for IM Moo 2008 I am going to practice, practice, practice nutrition.  My current conceptual nutrition plan will be a combination of water, e-caps, Powergels, and Combos.  I am going to dial in how much and how often I take everything in over my training this Winter/Spring/Summer.  This time around I am going to focus as much on preparation for nutrition as I do the other three disciplines.  Consider this lesson learned. 

LOVE YOUR EXCEL SPREAD SHEET MAN. Of all the things about finishing an IM Nutrition is my biggest obstacle. I am trying to find a plan that makes sense scientifically but also "feels good." I have GI issues in everyday life so there are a lot of foods that I just stay away from - milk, fiber, etc.

But I need to consume calories on the bike without getting sick. During my HIM what worked for me was GE, gel and bannas. I LOVE Banannas and I usually eat them before, during and after a work out. Go figure. But since I sweat like a waterbuffalo I think the potassium does me good. My HIM plan was:

4 a.m. breafast - oatmeal, bananna, gatorade. 1 Bananna before swim. 3 Sportlegs before bike, 1 20 oz GE every 1:30 and gel every 20-30 minutes. And 3 sport legs every hour during the bike.

What I missed though was plain water. I can't do water a lot because it makes my belly sloshy but after a few hours the GE started to taste too sweet. So water helps. So I will try at my next HIM in April -

3 SL before, 1 20 oz GE every 1:00, gel every 20-30 and water every 1:30 hr from the aid station. 3 SL every hour. And see how that works. I'll see what mixing GE and water will do for me.

On the run I'm a free for all - I can eat anything mostly because I'm so slow that I don't have GI issues But I usually stick to gel, GE and a treat - graham crackers or cookies.

I tried Coke one time on a long training day and it didn't work for me.

Also found that SportLegs works better for me than eCaps. SportLegs has more magnesium I think and calcium which I don't normally get enough of because I'm lactose intolerant. I'm prone to cramps but eating like this negates that issue. Unless it's super hot then I need to double my liquid intake and go 40 oz per hour. Which is a lot to drink.

Thanks for all your suggestions and your plans. This a fantastic thread.

Hey Ernie, I actually do "practice rest stops" in my training. I started doing this after my first HIM. Most people don't but since I usually do 75% of the race during a training day - all three together on one training day at 75% of the distance - I practice my hydration, rest, transition etc. during that one day. But I'm going so slow it probably doesn't matter.

During my first HIM I had my nutrition plan in place and was following it to the T when GI disaster struck.  I was alternating between water and G.E. on the bike and for the first hour was fine.  I also had a gel or two like I had in training.  Started feeling bloated around mile 20 and from then on had to continually get off my bike to pee.  Although I felt I had to pee it didn't happen.  I was bloated and had no way to relieve it.

After a very painful DNF (both physically and mentally) I sat down and reexamined.  What had I done wrong?  I followed my plan exactly and had failed.  I had taken in more fluid that could safely and effectively empty from my stomach.  My biggest mistake, and this is just for me it may not work for someone else, was the fact that I didn't use a heat supplement such as Endurolytes, or another sodium rich supplement.  I strongly believe that if I had used this then I would have been able to get my stomach to empty and would have been in a better place.

At my next HIM I tried this strategy and it worked perfectly.  Just trial and error. I didn't think that finding out if I was a heavy sweater (not just eyeballing it, but figuring out the actual sweat rates) and it turns out I was.  Although I wasn't sweating buckets I was losing alot of sodium and had none/little left to add in stomach emptying and reabsorbption.

Sometimes doing things the "geeky"/scientific way ,may be longer, I think somethings arer worth it.  Just my 2 cents.  Hope this helps someone.

I wonder if there is a problem from taking in too much sodium. On my longest ride to date I took in enduralytes every hour (this was new) and suffered horribly from stomach cramps. (Bloated and gassy). So, I quit using them, and was fine in my hot HIM. Maybe I get enough from the GE and gels....

One other thing that I've discovered and would like to share with others that I found during my most recent half mary (I know I know not the same as an IM but I plan to use this info in my IM) is that a gel flask is great to use because you don't have to take in a whole packet's worth of gel at once. I do much better by taking about a third to a half a gel at a time, but doing it more often. No problems at all. This has really made a huge difference in my ability to negative split a race and I'm sure I'll be "gelling" a little at a time the entire day at IMCDA...

To answer your question about too many or too much on the electrolytes the answer is most definitely yes!

We have done a good job about educating athletes about hyponytremia. Maybe too good of a job as excess fluid intake and excess electrolyte (or sodium) intake can and usually does lead to GI distress. Most age group athletes actually drink too much for their bodies to process. We have drilled into athletes heads "eat and drink or you will not finish" so much that most take it to the extreme. One of the recent Hammer publications that I received had an article about taking in the minimum amount of calories/fluids, which makes sense if you think about it.  I have also seen an article by Lance Watson ( I think) which advocates purposely going out on minimum fuel and water/fluid to get your body used to functioning on a low calorie intake.

I have found through working with many athletes that the "some is good so more must be better" mentality is very prevalent. Calorie and fluid uptake amounts are unique to each person so you really need to train and experiment to see what works for you.  Also a common "no-no" I have seen in several posts refer to washing down gels with GE or other sports drinks....that will lead to a delay in Gastric emptying and cause bloating or gut sloshing. Best to wash gels down with water and alternate with GE or sports drink. 

A tri team friend who learned to ride a bike in '06 and did IMLP in '07, used to pay neighbor kids to do bottle hand offs to have her practice. I've ridden with her and her bike handling skills are that of someone new to riding. She also does run 1 or 2 mile loops in her neighborhood with a water stop in her front yard to practice for aid stations. She comes from a running background. The idea of doing 20 loops on a 20 mile run seems nuts but maybe a good idea.

This year she did Kona as well thru the lottery. 

One thought I have had is to practice running and hydrating/taking in nutrition  in the dark as I'm sure I'll be doing some/lots of my Mary run at IMLP after dark.

I'm going to jump in here with my GI issues in the last 2 versions of IMLP.  In 2005 I had no problems, but in '06 and '07 I had a hard time and I attribute it to Gatorade Endurance which I don't seem to tolerate as well as the original Gatorade which was used in '05.  I'm also another who agrees a lot with Jorge about getting too much into my system.  I think that was my undoing...being so paranoid about dehydration that I ended up going overboard and had too much.  I'm a very light drinker during a shorter race or a long training ride.  Just this weekend I did a 58 mile bike ride and drank 20 oz of fluid.  OK it was temperatures in the low 40's and it was a relaxed riding pace, but that's still a pretty minimal amount of hydration.  It works for me though.

As far as more solid nutrition, I find I need things in my stomach.  A steady diet of gels is OK for up to 1/2 IM distance, but beyond that I need more substance.

My tentative plan for Ironman AZ next November is to also live off the land, but use more water and less GE.  After 32 years of cycling, I've come to the conclusion that I need to drink when I'm thirsty and not when someone suggests that I do.  I'm of the philosophy that no one knows your body better than you do yourself, especially after a lot of years of training.  And yes there have been some monumental rides over the years including several double centuries over hilly terrain.

I'm going back to the "not overdoing it" routine for 2008. 

And I'm going to start there. Thanks Max.

I noted early in thread I was amazed at how little I needed to complete MCM. That's in the memory bank, now the rest I'll continue to work on during long training days and my May HIM.

 Um: Novice Question Here: Do you buy a "gel flask..." or do you make one out of a small runner flask by putting gel and water into?