Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club (Page 20)

Mike, I'll be curious to hear what others say about this.  I don't have my book with me, but is there some sort of mpw base required before adding quality?  For some reason I'm thinking that, but it could just be that I internalized that way. 

Certainly, lots of runners (high school kids and shorter distance T and F) are doing Q workouts on lower weekly mileage.

I'm guessing that the reason JD allows for two Q workouts is that he assumes the 50 mpw.  Maybe an approach would be to add just one Q workout on the reduced mileage?

Good luck this weekend!

I got about four weeks into phase II and two Q's a week was too much for me.  I found that the R-workouts are not that difficult with adequate base and if you stick to the pacing charts.  I did scale back the volume especially when you get into 400's.  These workouts are not designed to kill you but to make your running more economical.  I did the second Q sessions and was OK initially with them but the cumulative stress over time finally got to me.

I did find the R workouts very beneficial and I enjoy them greatly.  I had to take a couple weeks break from the Q stuff but will pick it back up next week.  My plan is to stay with the R workouts once a week, three or four easy days, and a long run.  After the first of the year, I'm going to ramp up my mileage to get ready for a couple of early Spring marathons and set me up for an HIM in June. 

There isn't necessarily a hard minimum, but do take a look at a few things. It's possible to do some sort of Q workout, but on low mileage it may be better to keep the focus on just running more. Add the stress in that way. A Q workout should not be a significant part of the weekly mileage, so if a Q is only going to be a 5 minute tempo, then probably best to keep mileage building up more. Easier to get in more stress that way.

I'm not sure if it's better to reduce the size of each workout (as Mike has planned) or to do most of one or the other, but either way, I would probably go as a bit of a progression in pace for them. Especially with not having done any in awhile. Meaning start off strong, but not at expected pacing. Work up towards that over time or consecutive reps. Do remember that Daniels is running only, not accounting for fatigue from cycling or swimming.

I'll be throwing in a short 'E' run on Monday, and a medium 'E' run on Wednesday, in addition to my 'L' run on Saturday...so 5 days/week in total.

I'm thinking of doing maybe 75% of the Q workouts the first week of Phase 2 and see how I feel at the end of the week.

I'm sure that after the first week (or two) you will be feeling fine but be careful as the cumulative stress builds up.  I think one can get lulled into a false sense of security when things go well initially to keep building at the rate that is in the plan.  I think I'd extend the length of the phases and maybe think about alternating that 2nd Q workout every other week.  Proceed cautiously my friend.

Agreed on the first...I was thinking if I can't handle at least 10 minutes at tempo then it's not worth the effort. 

And that's a very good point on the second...typically my normal training schedule has trainer sessions on Mondays and Wednesdays, plus Masters swimming Fridays, that sounds like an awful lot of intensity work.

I think that's sounding like good advice...maybe the day I'm thinking for Q2 I'll throw a couple of strides in instead and call it a week.

I'm also of the opinion (and my performance results show) that a little Q work goes a long way, so I will proceed cautiously. 

I was just thinking of that too. Daniels says to work at particular training paces for several weeks (at least) before trying to increase. Same can be said of other aspects as well. It's very easy to get caught up with increasing all the time.

10K PR by over two minutes...spot on based on my VDOT, but still can't believe it.

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/RaceLog/races-view-container.asp?raceid=257141

Thanks to all of you fellow book readers/challengers...I've learned an incredible amount from you all through this journey.

Couple of questions for the group.

Now that I feel like my leg is healing, I'm considering my running options.

I am entertaining the idea of a spring marathon.  There is one that is 45 minutes from my house in mid April.   I would be using Daniels "A" marathon training plan and while also doing S/B I think my max mpw would be 45, maybe 50. 

1) For the long runs in this plan he has 22 miles or 2.5 hours, whichever is shorter.  In the past I have always run at least 24 miles for M training.  At the pace I will be doing my long runs, this will probably have me topping out at 20 miles or so.  I do not feel good about that. Thoughts?

2) This race will be 7 weeks before my first HIM, which will be an important race for me.  My plan will be to back off on biking going into the last month before the marathon prep, race, have an easy recovery week with light spins and EZ runs, and then go into a fairly heavy bike focus  before the HIM (will probably look like 3 swim/4 bike/4 run (1Q/1L) until the race.  Again, thoughts?

If anyone thinks it would just be stupid to run a marathon 7 weeks before the HIM, please feel free to tell me that too :)

I'm interested in the responses.  

I've never run a full marathon (IM doesn't count...) so I can't really give a strong opinion but I think if the HIM is important to you, they are a bit too close together.

This part came to mind as soon as you said "spring marathon".

It's quite possible to get through both, but one will be rather compromised by the other.

While I certainly think the word "stupid" is a little harsh, I think the goals are conflicting and I'd really be worried about the recovery cost of that marathon for your 'A' race.

If you do go ahead, I certainly wouldn't add anything to Daniel's L run.  Again, for the recovery cost.

The amount of time to recover from the marathon would hurt your training for the HIM, if you wanted to do your best at it.

NM.

Thanks.  I appreciate the feedback from everyone.

I'm having a hard time adjusting my goals with respect to this injury.  I wasn't going to race the marathon, which maybe I should have made clear, I was just going to try to run it fast enough to BQ (a goal I had had for this year pre-injury).  At my current VDOT a well trained marathon would be a 3:30, and I only need a 3:45 to BQ.  I have >10 marathons under my belt, but, admittedly, I haven't done one in 12 years, so it's been a while. 

I really don't want to be dumb about stuff and have undo injury risk.  The JD M plan is actually not that different than what I will be doing in training for my HIM, though the long runs will certainly be shorter.  The tris are more imprtant, I was just thinking I could start runnning conservatively again, working on my base, and see how things went.  The nice thing about this race was that it was so close to home and wouldn't fill, so I could "call the ball" late. 

*sigh*

OK, I'm tabling it.  I just wanted to lay out why I had even considered it :) 

I've pretty much already told you what I've thought when we have talked before but for the sake of conversation I'll elaborate.

I think it's difficult to adequately train for a marathon while training for an "a" HIM. I think even more difficult would be to fully recover from a marathon while you are supposed to be peaking and then racing that HIM well. At that point they are kind of both getting in the way of eachother.  

It's not really my expertise, but I think managing multiple HIMs and OLYs throughout a season would make a lot of sense but I'll let others comment on the best way to do that. 

While I understand how important the mental aspect of racing a marathon is (which is why I suspect you like to go so far in your LR), I agree with Dale. 

And if you are following JD, you would have to be running pretty significant mileage to keep that long run within the recommended range. I think, like everything, there is some wiggle room here BUT I also think that once you start to get beyond 35% you are putting yourself a quite a bit of risk of injury. And considering your current injury, I wouldn't gamble on that. 

I'm a much bigger fan of increasing overall frequency and volume spread throughout a plan rather than weighing down any one specific run.

It's much less technical, but I think  Hansons Marathon Method is a good reference for this concept. And the idea of cumulative fatigue is VERY relevant in triathlon training. I think you guys have talked about this recently, being sure to take into account the S and the B.

I had a great chat with our coach yesterday. I think I am going to do a 16-week M build instead of 18, that way I can take a little down time after Nationals. I was talking to a teammate who was expressing her frustration with herself for not taking downtime in between track and XC so, the conversation with my coach was timely! 

He also expressed his desire for me to stop doing Boston so I can get some good marathon PRs which I totally agree with AFTER this one I just couldn't have last year be my one and only Boston.

I'm super excited about what's coming up!