Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club (Page 22)

And I just PR'd 5K, 5 M, and 10K running a max of 20 miles/week with some very focused quality work, adding to the notion that there is more than one way to skin this cat.

I find that the tempo/threshold run is the most effective for me, plus being consistent week-in/week-out.  Frequency also made a big difference.  I'll be interested when I push out my run volume to 30+ mpw (while also cycling and swimming) during my build phase.  Like you, Steve, I need to rock that 10K to have a prayer at making AGN.  I will be careful to manage the quality work percentage in line with JD's recommendations.

Also Matt (and Steve) it's important to keep your entire training load in perspective. While you might not be logging high miles, you have the swimming and biking training load to account for. 

That's very true.  I wish I had a better idea of how much it affects the load of my run training, but it definitely does.

I was following JD's 5k to 15k plan and was just about through phase II a few weeks back when I tweeked a tendon (not seriously) that I feel was due to the Q2 I or T workout.  I was fine with the R workouts and decided that I would stick with those and cut out Q2 for a while and just build on Q1 for now.   I think have a few key limiters that I am trying to figure out.  I've made great strides with my speed which I've been focusing on and my endurance (hit 40 miles week before last) which resulted in a breakthrough in my marathon time in October.  It's the in between stuff that seems to be a limitor.  Would that be my Lactate Threshold?

I think I'm OK with building miles and while I have not finalized a marathon plan I'd like to be up around 50-60 miles because I'll still be doing some cycling and a little swimming.  Another limitor has been running strength.  Not speed but strength.  I am learning that cycling does not seem to be a great builder of strength for running.  I think I relied on this assumption in the past.  I did my first trail HM last month and found out just deficient I was in running strength.  I'm thinking about adding some hill repeats to one of my easy days since I'm not doing a Q2.

Warming up was not possible.  As soon as I got out of my car it was a losing battle to build or retain any heat.  I think the hills and my lack of running strength also contributed.

I did decide I would not do T and I workouts as a Q2.  Maybe after my marathon base running I'll dabble back into this cautiously as my weekly miles drop and I start into a later Spring tri focus with an emphasis on what it takes to run a good 10k.

The health stuff does play in as well.  Four years ago, after my surgeries my left leg was not strong enough (and some nerve damage) to lift it into my car without reaching down and pulling it in with my hand.  I've made a lot of progress but it is still a bit compromised.  The human body is extremely adaptive but it has created strength imbalances that I have to be careful of.  I think its what has caused some of my right calf/tendon issues.

Maybe I'll find a flatter 10k in above freezing conditions and try to redeem myself.  It was just very baffling to me how I could be so far off the calculator.

I think the problem with JD recommendations is that he does not have a table for age.  The older you get the harder it is to bounce back for that second or third quality workout.   My mini-training cycle is weekly to coincide with days off to do long runs/rides over the weekend but I think I would rather do something like a ten day cycle. 

Originally posted by dtoce

Originally posted by popsracer I think the problem with JD recommendations is that he does not have a table for age.  The older you get the harder it is to bounce back for that second or third quality workout.   My mini-training cycle is weekly to coincide with days off to do long runs/rides over the weekend but I think I would rather do something like a ten day cycle. 

Steve sorry you did not get a 10K PR, but sometimes weather throws you a curveball...it's one of many variables that we have to deal with on race day (which is why M days can kill PR dreams so quickly with a sudden change in the weather) insightful comment about aging, but again, we are all different I have a friend who made breakthroughs after he added lots of mileage then Q work-he could handle a lot of Q training and made quick improvements others fail with 2 Q workouts (like me when my overall volume is low) but we all need to just figure out what works Having done the training block you did, you have solid, if not higher, fitness than prior to that block and just because your 10K race did not justify it, I would not be deterred at all. I SUCK at cold weather races and hot weather races. I melt/sweat or freeze and lock up...so I never expect PR's during extreme weather conditions. Train on-you are doing just fine, just fine...What to do specifically? If you have the time, the answer is almost always 'a bit more volume with a bit more tempo'. The best standard answer for almost anyone...

Originally posted by AsalzwedHeh, you are opening a whole can of worms there re: "how can I get faster" thread in TT.

There are many ways to get faster in the form of different types of training stress.

I PRed in everything from 5K to M in every Marathon training cycle I did with just easy volume. So, there is my experience. But yeah, more intensity types of workouts with lots of tempo runs and longer reps are going to be pretty specifically good workouts for 10K. We do very similar workouts for our 6K XC stuff. Have you looked at Daniel's plan? Remember, as you add more intensity (and longer tempo runs) it's a good idea to have the proper amount of volume to support it

Fun 'triathlon talk' thread huh? Did everyone get a chance to read it? Lots of good comments and I think we did a good job keeping LB and Coach R in line overall. Lots of ways to train and having a big resume doesn't not make your word gospel. And even if he is confrontational and always talks about 'that guy', I enjoy LB and his comments. I was having trouble with the coach, however, in the beginning...but there are lots of good comments by many people about training for sure. That was an excellent thread!

Yeah, thank you for your thoughtful responses, Dale. 

I agree.

I was trying to take a more roundabout approach (rather than arguing, because it was clear they weren't all that interested in other views) and just plucked away with more specitivity. I still never really got answers but that's alright. It was some generally good conversation (and some REALLY bad.)

At this point I have derailed the whole thing though

I am not going to post it in that particular thread, but I think this is a pretty good read in terms of the different marathon philosophies: http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/masterminding-the-marathon

And Steve, there is nothing wrong with a sub par race. That's just part of all of this, ya know?

I think some people might think I'm a little soft when I don't give really hard time goals, but it's generally because there are SO many variables (like weather!) that you can't control and in my opinion it's a much better idea (for me) to make my goal to run the best I can THAT day and let the numbers fall where they will.

Speaking of, this Max King XC course this weekend is going to be crazy. Still too soon to know if there will be snow to contend with or not. I am so, so excited! There is some serious star-power in this race, I am lucky to be lining up with some of these ladies, SHEESH!

I'm more puzzled than bummed out and I really didn't expect a lot from the race.  I did a 6 mile penance run the next day and cruised along very comfortably so I know I'm still on the right track.  All your comments and reading the other TT thread have given me a lot of food for thought.  A lot of what the OP was looking for was similar to my upcoming phase so it was helpful though some of it just irritated me.   Don't like to see CoJ type badgering spill into TT.  Anybody should be able to give an opinion without being demeaned.

I should apologize for my contributions to the CoJ tone.  I have a hard time walking the line sometimes.  Sorry about that Steve :)

You certainly are not who I was referring to. 

While I agree that some of the crosstalk was a little much, that was a really interesting thread with a very wide range of experiences and methodologies.  At the end of the day, we are all experiments of one and we need to find out what works for ourselves.  Sometimes that experience can be less than we had hoped, and sometimes it just clicks.  And maybe some folks just never quite figure it all out.

I'm about to return to running next week after a self-imposed three week Transition period.  I went from basically no running due to some nagging injuries to about 20 mpw through October and November, finishing with my 10K PR.  I've spent the last  2 1/2 weeks getting really fat relaxing a bit and trying to not look like I'm drowning doing a little cross-training here and there.

JD says for three weeks off with cross-training to take about 4 weeks to get back to the original mileage, and to drop a VDOT.  I'm planning something like 8, 10, 12, 15, 18, 20, starting with 4 days/week and increasing to 5 eventually, no Q workouts until those first six weeks are done.  I would ramp up faster but I'm scared to death of injuries, having spent most of 2011, and significant parts of 2012 and 2013 either not running or not training at all, due to some kind of injury.  

I'll be adding back in cycling and swimming with a four week Prep phase at the same time, plus Friel's recommended strength training and my Bikram.

Does this sound, uh, sound?

8,10 miles sounds pretty light for a guy who ran a 46 minute 10k not too long ago.  If you are running four days a week that's 2-2.5 easy miles.  I am all for a slow cautious build back but you didn't have any injuries after your race or during your rest period did you?  I guess the cycling will add some stress that has to be considered.  I don't know, just my gut reaction. 

8,10 does sound light. But then again, so does 20. 

I generally would recommend erring on the conservative side especially since you will be ramping up the other sports at the same time. 

Thanks for the responses, folks.  I'll pay attention to how I'm responding to the three sports.  Everything is supposed to be easy for the six weeks, so I might be able to ramp up the run mileage a little quicker.  We'll see!

That's great that you are thinking that way, Mike.

Let us know how it goes. 

Have any of y'all thought of becoming a mentor?

I've thought about it. 

Awww  That was sweet! 

Yeah, I dunno ... I was considering it. But that is about as far as I have gotten. 

Thought I'd give this thread a bump. I'm still at it and loving it. I'm wondering, though, after about 8 weeks on the plan if I should do a 5k to see if I need to change my VDOT level.

Also, DS2 started running again at the first of the year. He's been off since Rock N Roll Denver (Oct 20) with an injury so I bought him a hard copy of JD's book and he's using it now too. Happy New Year and happy running all!