Gray Guys/Girls Masters Focus Triathlete Forum (all levels welcome)--CLOSED (Page 29)

Oh my, now we have my dander up!  I just love when "coaches" make ludicrous statements, don't back them up with proper instruction, and then when they do say things, the things they say or do are contradictory (note the HEAVY sarcasm).

Let's take the next few hours and pick apart the comments in bold above.  Ok, I will try and keep it shorter than a few hours!

First question is how are we defining over-rotation?  Proper rotation is along the lines of 25-35 degrees of rotation to each side.  Most swimmers rotate a bit further when they breath, maybe another 5-10 degrees (this becomes less true as you move into the more elite swimmers).  Using those numbers as a general guide, I would define over-rotation as more than about 45 degrees of rotation to either side.  Yes, with that much rotation you will start to 'wobble' down the lane and it would certainly be something I would want to work on.  Using those same numbers, I would describe a 'flat' stroke as one where the rotation was less than about 20 degrees rotation to either side.  With that low a rotation you would have all sorts of other problems.  (See how one thing effects all the other things?)

Before I go any further, I am going to repeat something I have said repeatedly, and it is stated in many of the swim technique articles on my website.  "In my opinion, body roll is the single most important aspect of the freestyle stoke, so much so that I call it the foundation on which the freestyle stroke is built."

So let's look at the 'flaws' that you mention.  "My recovery is symmetric but the elbow isn't high enough."  You simply CANNOT have a high elbow recovery without proper body rotation.  PERIOD!  "Still too short on the catch."  Body rotation is what allows you too complete your entry and move your hand forward for a proper catch in the correct location.  Your catch will be too short, your stroke will be too short and inefficient if you have insufficient body rotation.  Are you starting to see a pattern here?  Without seeing your stroke, I suspect your rotation is at least part of any problem, if indeed there IS a problem.

Now, on to my favorite part of what you mentioned.  "The first drill station (kick people) were very positive then the second drill station (front quadrant drills) tore me a new one."  Gosh, where do I start.  I will state the obvious and say that I don't know how you were doing kick drills.  The problem with kicking drills, whether on a kickboard or with arms outstretched in front of you, is that they promote NO body rotation.  Your coaches flattened out your stroke so, of course you would do well in a kick drill because you naturally do not have rotation.  As I have said repeatedly, a triathlete's kick efforts provide virtually ZERO forward propulsion.  In my opinion, the value of the kick for a triathlete is to aid with body rotation and maintain balance in the water.  With that in mind, I see no value to kick drills.  Next, I have no idea WHY the second drill station "tore you a new one."  Maybe because you were doing front quadrant drills?  Opps, guess I just revealed what I think about front quadrant drills.  In my opinion 'front quadrant drills' (at least as I understand them) have got to be the biggest waste of time there is and sadly encourage improper technique.  Let's look at why.  Front quadrant drills/catch up drills essentially have you holding your forward arm in position until your recovering arm/hand catches up and touches the forward arm/hand.  The theory being that this will help elongate your stroke.  The problem is that in order to 'catch up' and touch the forward hand, you have to keep your shoulders flat and in order to elongate your stroke you must have proper body rotation - you have to roll into the stroke.  The drill itself is contradictory in that you can't do both things at once, you can't have flat shoulders and roll in to the stroke at the same time.  Not happenin'.

You cannot do a series of drills and then hope that when you throw it all together and actually swim freestyle all the individual drills will somehow translate into proper stroke technique.  AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!  Freestyle is a single, fluid movement throughout the entire stroke.  To learn proper freestyle you need to swim freestyle with someone that can offer tips on technique corrections that can be incorporated into the overall stroke.  I was a member of the U.S. Olympic team, I held American and World records and not ONCE in my entire competitive swimming career did I EVER do a swimming drill.  I swam, I had an EXCELLENT coach on deck that corrected technique flaws, and then I swam some more.  I am not saying DON'T do drills, I certainly don't want to create conflict between you and a coach.  However, before I invest a great deal of time into drills, I would want to know SPECIFICALLY how that drill is going to help me, what it is going to improve, how it is going to improve whatever it is focused on, and how is this drill going to impact all the other parts of my stroke.

Send me some video of you swimming.  As I said earlier, I suspect it is a couple 'little things' that are holding you back.  Also, what are your times like?  You haven't talked about that, maybe things aren't 'as bad' as you seem to think they are?

Scott, 

They are going to post the videos up on youtube and send us a link once they are posted.  When I get the link I'll PM it to you.

Yes, the original coach I started with 7 years ago had me rotating  but I over rotated to about 80-90 degrees and we never clicked in relationship to fix things.  His explanations made no sense so whenever I asked a question I felt talked over/ down to....Second coach was great at explaining.  He never said something was wrong without first coming up with a way to work on it so I could see/ feel the correction immediately.  He was much older than my previous coach and I am assuming he still used the old school swim flat style from when he was growing up.....Fast forward, he left the gym and coach 1 returned.  I refused to swim in with coach 1 because we had already had bad history.  Went to another Master's class.....and found while they made workouts tailored to triathlon swimming (not a lot of IM crap) they posted the workout and wandered around doing water quality checks and chatting with guards  but NOT making any stroke corrections.  The third guy at my regular gym does that too.....Post a 3400 yard set and wander around doing water checks, drink coffee.....chat....but no real feedback.  So I don't take his class.  I pull workouts from swim plan.com or triswimcoach.com and do them on my own.  

 The clinic I took yesterday is by a local guy who is a great swimmer.  He comes out of the water with the pros.....He has several certified coaches on his staff.  They do work on all the drills and want people to do "catch up" as they swim--which was a drill coach #1 had me do so much that I refuse to do it.  

Today I did a drill focused set:  4 rounds

50 scull

50 kick (stream line on back/ on back w/ board over knees to limit the knee bend)

3x50 drill (paddles--zipper--fist)

3x50 swim

By the time I got to my swim I felt like my pull was much more effective.  I think I will use this set over the next month while I determine if I can afford coaching with the group from the clinic.

I will never be a great swimmer, but I think I am capable of better than I have been able to do so far.  That's all I want.

This sounds like fun!  I will have to see if they have one or two in my area.

Congrats on your very first tri!  What a great way to spend a Sunday morning!

Weight gain this week is my granddaughters fault!  I mean really, how do you say "No!" to your granddaughter when she looks so cute in her girl scout uniform, looking up at you with those brown puppy dog eyes?  Although, I probably didn't need to buy as many as I did, and I certainly didn't need to eat as many as I did!  Yes - Thin Mints are my weakness!

Gained 2.4 pounds - minus 24 points

Workout 783 minutes - 26.1 points

Total - 2.1 points

No worries James!! Thank you for doing this for the group.  It is greatly appreciated!!!

I stayed on track a little better this week:

Weight lost: 1 lb= 10 points

No weight gain= 5 points

Workouts: 309 minutes= 10 points

Total=25 points

weight loss - 3#'s = 30 pts (hopefully I can keep it off)
no gain = 5 pts
200 minutes workout = 6.66 pts

for a total of 41.66 pts

This covers the last 2 weeks - trying to get back to normal this week
Janet

Congrats on your tri!  You did great and sounds like you had fun (the most important part).

Hang in there, Kris.  Stress does crazy stuff to us physically and mentally.  I need the endorphin fix daily to deal with my stress--others need to hibernate.  Do what you need to take care of that which you can.

Sorry you have to pull out of the HM, sounds like right now it's the right call for you.

Kris -

Sorry to hear things are hectic.  You know, success in athletics means constantly re-evaluating where you are at and where you are going.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a step back, or a dozen steps back.  After you take a couple steps back, it is often easier to see the changes that have to be made to achieve the balance that will allow you to go forward.  Hope you don't disappear.  You have a great support network here with the Gray Guys/Girls!

Hope things get better soon.

Kris - hope a week or two off re-energizes you!  I also train alone.  Keeping motivated is hard and  juggling all of the things that need to be done and we want to get/have done is always a challenge.  I just have to remind myself to always try and enjoy whatever activity I'm doing at a particular moment.