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Everyone's a Winner (Page 3)
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 2009-08-24 1:24 PM in reply to: #2365928 |
Master  2372   |  Subject: RE: Everyone's a WinnerGah - Joe Friel should take flak over this post. Quoting an average isn't worth anything without the accompanying standard deviation. I suspect that the FOP and MOP groups aren't getting slower, but the burgeoning BOP is dragging the overall average down. We don't know for sure - no data was presented at all (other then a platitudinous "people are getting slower"). The burgeoning BOP phenomena is fine, IMO. People can pay good money (which helps the whole sport), observe the rules, and have fun doing what they want to do. Better than sitting on the couch. Conclusion: Joe made a sweeping conclusion based on some pretty half assed research. Next time how about some standard deviations, some graphs showing whether then vs. now is still normally distributed (or whether it has always had some bimodal components). Etc. Now that would be interesting. |
| 2009-08-24 1:24 PM in reply to: #2366957 |
Cycling Guru 15134  Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner ChrisM - 2009-08-24 1:56 PM Marvarnett - 2009-08-24 10:45 AM I find it interesting that some people have stated about the "fasties" saying the slower people are in their way. No where in the blog entry does it even mention that. we've moved beyond the blog, from earlier I agree that this is annoying. The thing that bugs me the most is how someone not "competing" (rather, participating) can get in the way of the competitors. I am happy for anyone who wants to be involved, and is new to the sport, etc., and I am certainly glad for everyone who gets off the couch and stretches themselves. However, please don't get in my way Well, Dan didn't say that, it was another poster. And I think her point was, if you are going to participate, please understand the rules and not hinder other participants. I don't see at all that she was belittling newer athletes. So perhaps others are reading what they WANT to see, and not was written, as is often the case online. |
| 2009-08-24 1:25 PM in reply to: #2365928 |
Extreme Veteran 574 Southwestern Ontario | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner Wow. As a newbie (who will likely be slow in my first race next month), I feel a little intimidated now. Comparing children in sport and adult endruance athletes is like comparing apples and oranges. Yes, if little Timmy screws around and try-outs or just plain sucks, he's not on the team and that is a good life lesson. However, I am well aware of life's fun little lessons and I assure you, I haven't been screwing around for the last 6 months. I've been training my butt off. I am going out there next month to RACE. My goals may not be as lofty as those who have been doing this for years, but that is expected. I may be BOP, but I won't be out there birdwatching!  |
| 2009-08-24 1:25 PM in reply to: #2367000 |
Alpharetta, Georgia Bronze member | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner ADollar79 - 2009-08-24 1:13 PM It irks me to no end to see people do RACES together (few circumstances withstanding). The point of any RACE is to go all out and give it YOUR all. Your all might be a 12 hour IM. It might be 16:59. If you can cross the finish line and agree that you gave it 100%, then your raced it. Otherwise, you sandbagged, survived, just finished. It is called a RACE for a reason I do think Ironman and marathons have a been diluted by people who 'just want to finish.' That should always be a primary goal, but the real goal should be 'to finish as quickly as I can.' Maybe you are fine with 'just finished.' Good for you. Collect your medal, trophy or what not and move along. That is the population that I think Friel is talking about and in his opinion, it isn't a positive aspect of competition. Your goals might be different than the next persons - it's hard to believe people still don't realize that. What if I'm using this RACE as a training day? Or for the sole purpose of dialing in my nutrition? Or to practice transitions? Or to pace a buddy in their first marathon? Or whatever else reason I might have dreamed up? Not everyone's goal is to "finish as quickly as I can." Why is that not ok? |
| 2009-08-24 1:40 PM in reply to: #2367043 |
| Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner Daremo - 2009-08-24 11:24 AM ChrisM - 2009-08-24 1:56 PM Marvarnett - 2009-08-24 10:45 AM I find it interesting that some people have stated about the "fasties" saying the slower people are in their way. No where in the blog entry does it even mention that. we've moved beyond the blog, from earlier I agree that this is annoying. The thing that bugs me the most is how someone not "competing" (rather, participating) can get in the way of the competitors. I am happy for anyone who wants to be involved, and is new to the sport, etc., and I am certainly glad for everyone who gets off the couch and stretches themselves. However, please don't get in my way Well, Dan didn't say that, it was another poster. And I think her point was, if you are going to participate, please understand the rules and not hinder other participants. I don't see at all that she was belittling newer athletes. So perhaps others are reading what they WANT to see, and not was written, as is often the case online. 1. I didn't think we were limited to commenting on what Friel or Dan said  I'm a rebel that way2. I never said they were belittling. I said that the statement was that slower athletes were in the way. Which is what the post said, what I said, and what Dan said. As you note, be careful not to read other intent into a post that isn't there Of course, unless you are first, you are always in danger of being in other people's way. And yes, there are athletes that don't know the rules, ride to the left etc., but in my experience that's the vast minority of people |
| 2009-08-24 1:41 PM in reply to: #2366934 |
Champion 8540 the colony texas | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner |
| 2009-08-24 1:41 PM in reply to: #2367000 |
Regular 534 Philadelphia | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner ADollar79 - 2009-08-24 2:13 PM I do think Ironman and marathons have a been diluted by people who 'just want to finish.' That should always be a primary goal, but the real goal should be 'to finish as quickly as I can.' Maybe you are fine with 'just finished.' Good for you. Collect your medal, trophy or what not and move along. That is the population that I think Friel is talking about and in his opinion, it isn't a positive aspect of competition. Fair enough, but to return the sport to a proper spirit of competition, is anyone willing to give up the positive aspects of greater participation in the sport? Would anyone say "Yes, I would rather have less awareness of my sport, less media coverage of my sport, fewer businesses and manufacturers who cater to my sport, and fewer opportunities to participate in my sport -- I would give those up in order to make the sport more seriously competitive" ? Perhaps they would. I'm sure there are a few. But it can't be done both ways. If people want the sport to grow, then they cannot decide who's allowed to be in it beyond those who can meet the basic physical expectations. If people want the sport to be limited to serious competitors, then they cannot expect it to grow beyond a certain point. |
| 2009-08-24 1:43 PM in reply to: #2367049 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner lisac957 - 2009-08-24 2:25 PM Your goals might be different than the next persons - it's hard to believe people still don't realize that. What if I'm using this RACE as a training day? Or for the sole purpose of dialing in my nutrition? Or to practice transitions? Or to pace a buddy in their first marathon? Or whatever else reason I might have dreamed up? Not everyone's goal is to "finish as quickly as I can." Why is that not ok? People do realize that. But it is often mind boggling to others that someone would waste money to do most of those things you listed. FOR ME, the only "legitimate" one there is pacing a friend. The rest you can do in training for nothing. It is not that someone's goals are questionable, it just seems like a waste of cash to enter a race and NOT "race" it. And unless someone has unlimited funds, it doesn't come across TO ME as practical to throw money away. I've got two olympic distance tris next month a week apart. I'm going into them without having ridden my bike since early July and barely even dipping my toe into the water. But I paid for them and I'm going to go as hard as I can and put out the best effort possible on my fitness. Why? Because I paid my entry to RACE in the events. But others can do whatever they want. If they want to throw money down the proverbial entry-fee toilet so they can practice transitions??? That's their money loss, not mine. |
| 2009-08-24 1:43 PM in reply to: #2367048 |
| Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner dermoski - 2009-08-24 11:25 AM Wow. As a newbie (who will likely be slow in my first race next month), I feel a little intimidated now. Comparing children in sport and adult endruance athletes is like comparing apples and oranges. Yes, if little Timmy screws around and try-outs or just plain sucks, he's not on the team and that is a good life lesson. However, I am well aware of life's fun little lessons and I assure you, I haven't been screwing around for the last 6 months. I've been training my butt off. I am going out there next month to RACE. My goals may not be as lofty as those who have been doing this for years, but that is expected. I may be BOP, but I won't be out there birdwatching! Don't get intimidated. BT has this discussion every week so often. Some people say if you aren't racing you don't belong out there. Some people say if you aren't having fun what's the point.. etc etc etc. Don't worry about what others think about your performance, or how you choose to race or not, or what your goals are. Whatever anyone else thinks is utterly irrelevant. Good luck in your first! |
| 2009-08-24 1:47 PM in reply to: #2367126 |
| Alpharetta, Georgia Bronze member | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner Daremo - 2009-08-24 1:43 PM lisac957 - 2009-08-24 2:25 PM Your goals might be different than the next persons - it's hard to believe people still don't realize that. What if I'm using this RACE as a training day? Or for the sole purpose of dialing in my nutrition? Or to practice transitions? Or to pace a buddy in their first marathon? Or whatever else reason I might have dreamed up? Not everyone's goal is to "finish as quickly as I can." Why is that not ok? People do realize that. But it is often mind boggling to others that someone would waste money to do most of those things you listed. FOR ME, the only "legitimate" one there is pacing a friend. The rest you can do in training for nothing. It is not that someone's goals are questionable, it just seems like a waste of cash to enter a race and NOT "race" it. And unless someone has unlimited funds, it doesn't come across TO ME as practical to throw money away. I've got two olympic distance tris next month a week apart. I'm going into them without having ridden my bike since early July and barely even dipping my toe into the water. But I paid for them and I'm going to go as hard as I can and put out the best effort possible on my fitness. Why? Because I paid my entry to RACE in the events. But others can do whatever they want. If they want to throw money down the proverbial entry-fee toilet so they can practice transitions??? That's their money loss, not mine. No one should judge how people choose to spend their money, or if someone's goals are legitimate or not. You're right... it's their right to do whatever they want with their money or use the race however they see fit. So if people realize this, then why all of the comments about it? |
| 2009-08-24 1:49 PM in reply to: #2365928 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner Again, tacking onto my last post. I do not think anyone has ever really said "If you are not 'racing' then don't enter." It is my feeling that when people bring it up they are trying to understand WHY someone would enter a race without the intentions of putting forth their best effort and 'racing' it. |
| 2009-08-24 1:52 PM in reply to: #2367141 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner lisac957 - 2009-08-24 2:47 PM No one should judge how people choose to spend their money, or if someone's goals are legitimate or not. You're right... it's their right to do whatever they want with their money or use the race however they see fit. So if people realize this, then why all of the comments about it? I cannot speak for others, but it would be my guess that as human beings we strive to understand why others do what they do. And of course this is an interweb discussion forum, which by definition is there to incite discussion (and often controversy). By now the regulars should be able to predict exactly who is going to say what and who is going to be "bothered" by a subject. The newer participants just have to learn that over time. |
| 2009-08-24 1:52 PM in reply to: #2365928 |
Extreme Veteran 357 Huntington Beach, CA | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner If one sets a goal to finish a race or put up a personal best (or whatever), and they do it, then they have won. Winning can be defined by the individual. Not to take away from the actual "winners", because that is a big essence of sport. But humans are competitive by nature whether they are competing against 2000 people in a race, for a stated goal, or against their own demons. So for you posters looking to cross the finish line first, good luck to you. And for you posters that have another goal in mind, go get it done. |
| 2009-08-24 1:54 PM in reply to: #2367146 |
Pro 3906 Libertyville, IL | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner Daremo - 2009-08-24 1:49 PM Again, tacking onto my last post. Perhaps there is overlap as to why someone would enter a race without training for it? I do not think anyone has ever really said "If you are not 'racing' then don't enter." It is my feeling that when people bring it up they are trying to understand WHY someone would enter a race without the intentions of putting forth their best effort and 'racing' it. Sorry, couldnt resist!! |
| 2009-08-24 1:58 PM in reply to: #2367159 |
Pro 3906 Libertyville, IL | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner 17281posse - 2009-08-24 1:52 PM If one sets a goal to finish a race or put up a personal best (or whatever), and they do it, then they have won. Winning can be defined by the individual. Not to take away from the actual "winners", because that is a big essence of sport. In this sport, this seems like a biggie to me. You are out their for your own reasons. Heck, you might AG place and not hit your goals and consider it a loss. In the end, i am accountable to myself- did i race the race i trained for, did i get what i worked for and deserved? Its all relative and the individual is probably the most capable of knowing what they are capable of and keeping track of W and L's. |
| 2009-08-24 1:59 PM in reply to: #2367163 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner Ah, that's a whole separate discussion. When one entered the race (usually at least 6 - 9 months ahead of time) they may have had full intention of training properly for it. But then life gets in the way. Does NOT mean that said person doesn't put forth their best effort with the fitness level that they have in the race. Just means they did not come into the race with the level of preparedness that they would have liked or should have had. Or something like that. |
| 2009-08-24 2:01 PM in reply to: #2365928 |
| Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner So here's a question for all of you who don't think someone should ever "just finish": time and time again, we see people ask "what should be a good finishing time for X distance race" - assuming it's their first attempt at that distance, everyone answers "Well, for your first race of X distance, the only goal should be to finish". The point being that this endeavor will be a new experience and that worrying about finishing in a certain time should not be on the mind of a newb, or even a newb to that sport. I know that the same advice is doled out to first-time marathoners, where trying to go for a "specific" time goal might actually sabotage their race efforts. So were all these posts just sugar-coating it for the newbies? Seriously, I'm curious to know what a lot of the advice doled out to newbs here seems to go against what at least half the people on this thread are saying. |
| 2009-08-24 2:05 PM in reply to: #2367187 |
Veteran 1097 Elizabethtown, KY | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner wurkit_gurl - 2009-08-24 3:01 PM So here's a question for all of you who don't think someone should ever "just finish": time and time again, we see people ask "what should be a good finishing time for X distance race" - assuming it's their first attempt at that distance, everyone answers "Well, for your first race of X distance, the only goal should be to finish". The point being that this endeavor will be a new experience and that worrying about finishing in a certain time should not be on the mind of a newb, or even a newb to that sport. I know that the same advice is doled out to first-time marathoners, where trying to go for a "specific" time goal might actually sabotage their race efforts. So were all these posts just sugar-coating it for the newbies? Seriously, I'm curious to know what a lot of the advice doled out to newbs here seems to go against what at least half the people on this thread are saying. Agreed. A lot of people will equate doing an IM or Marathon to climbing a mountain. How do you know when you've succeeded in climbing the mountain? When you get to the top. No consideration of time or pace. And I think that's perfectly acceptable. |
| 2009-08-24 2:09 PM in reply to: #2367187 |
Sneaky Slow 8694 Herndon, VA, | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner wurkit_gurl - 2009-08-24 3:01 PM So here's a question for all of you who don't think someone should ever "just finish": time and time again, we see people ask "what should be a good finishing time for X distance race" - assuming it's their first attempt at that distance, everyone answers "Well, for your first race of X distance, the only goal should be to finish". The point being that this endeavor will be a new experience and that worrying about finishing in a certain time should not be on the mind of a newb, or even a newb to that sport. I know that the same advice is doled out to first-time marathoners, where trying to go for a "specific" time goal might actually sabotage their race efforts. So were all these posts just sugar-coating it for the newbies? Seriously, I'm curious to know what a lot of the advice doled out to newbs here seems to go against what at least half the people on this thread are saying. The advice doesn't go against what the people in the thread are saying. They are different, non-mutually exclusive concepts. In my first triathlon, I didn't set a time goal, because I had no idea what I'd be able to do. My goal was to finish the race and be happy with finishing. But you better believe come race day. I went all out. If I had gone easy, not pushed myself come race day, that's the "just finish" that I think many in this thread are talking about. |
| 2009-08-24 2:11 PM in reply to: #2367187 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner wurkit_gurl - 2009-08-24 3:01 PM So here's a question for all of you who don't think someone should ever "just finish": time and time again, we see people ask "what should be a good finishing time for X distance race" - assuming it's their first attempt at that distance, everyone answers "Well, for your first race of X distance, the only goal should be to finish". The point being that this endeavor will be a new experience and that worrying about finishing in a certain time should not be on the mind of a newb, or even a newb to that sport. I know that the same advice is doled out to first-time marathoners, where trying to go for a "specific" time goal might actually sabotage their race efforts. So were all these posts just sugar-coating it for the newbies? Seriously, I'm curious to know what a lot of the advice doled out to newbs here seems to go against what at least half the people on this thread are saying. Good point - as I have said that as well. But I think that the gist of those posts are that the newer athlete gets so wrapped up in what time they think they SHOULD be going that they set unrealistic expectations. So the answer of "slowing down and relaxing" to get to the finish applies. Doesn't mean that those people shouldn't be pushing themselves to their limit (i.e. - racing), just that they should not be setting their stock in some arbitrary number when they have nothing to compare it against in their own experiences. Or something like that???? Edit: ^^^^ See Newleaf's post. Edited by Daremo 2009-08-24 2:12 PM |
| 2009-08-24 2:12 PM in reply to: #2365928 |
Extreme Veteran 574 Southwestern Ontario | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner Thanks Chris. |
| 2009-08-24 2:13 PM in reply to: #2367187 |
Veteran 297 horseheads | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner i am an IRONMAN! or at least that's what i paid to hear right? in my mind i am not an ironman. for ME i have now done IMLP twice. the first time was a learning experience and i was "happy" to finish although my internal belief was that i didn't live up to what i could do. This year was an epic failure!!! finishing 28:57 behind last years time. to people in my town that was "amazing". to me, i was1.5 hrs behind schedule. i had a whole year of training/experience/confidence and lost time? what gets me more upset is when non-triathletes or even people that are but don't really know me, say "at least you finished" or "i couldn't do that" or "look at the conditions" or "you were in the top 15%"....... i would feel better if someone came up and said "wow, you really sucked A$$ out there what happened?" this society that thinks "everybody is a winner" is making it hard to feel a true sense of acheivment. garrrrrr now i need to go run..... |
| 2009-08-24 2:15 PM in reply to: #2365928 |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner |
| 2009-08-24 2:37 PM in reply to: #2366502 |
Expert 803 MD | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner ... just how and when do you know you are ready to 'race' that event with no prior experience? When does one take that jump? I think that is as personal as questioning ones goals for the event in itself. It is personal, that's why my original post is written in first person; I'm simply relating to Friel's comment to my own personal experience and decision making. When will I know I'm ready to take that jump?? - my benchmark is when I look at a training plan developed for a first-time IM - like the one on this site - and I know I can commit the necessary time and effort to following the plan, putting the hours and miles in, and showing up for race day knowing I've at least followed training advice from those who successfully went before me. What I don't want to do - and I suspect many do exactly this - is to sign up for a full IM race then only put in a half effort on the training, and end up bonking and/or walking the entire marathon. To me personally, there's not much accomplishment in that. I'm not knocking anybody, this is just how I approach this decision. |
| 2009-08-24 2:44 PM in reply to: #2367203 |
Master 2380 Beijing | Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner roch1009 - 2009-08-23 3:05 PM] Agreed. A lot of people will equate doing an IM or Marathon to climbing a mountain. How do you know when you've succeeded in climbing the mountain? When you get to the top. No consideration of time or pace. And I think that's perfectly acceptable. Technically, getting to the *bottom* of the mountain, AFTER reaching the top, is considered success. But I digress. |
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