Effect of Strength Training (Page 3)
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2009-08-28 8:26 PM in reply to: #2376677 |
Extreme Veteran 518 Sault Ste. Marie | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training core upper and lower back plus shoulders are what i try to focus on.... nothing else but s/b/r after that.... but if your getting into tri's and havent biked before some leg lifting exercises would definately give you returns.... wall sit is awesome! |
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2009-08-28 8:28 PM in reply to: #2377375 |
Extreme Veteran 518 Sault Ste. Marie | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training Daremo - 2009-08-28 7:56 PM MacMadame - 2009-08-28 7:48 PM When I started weight training, my run got faster even though I also started running less (hurt my knee in a bike fall and had to take it easy for a while). I'm a big believer in it, particularly if you are also losing weight, while training. Weight loss contributed to running faster. And since weight training is a successful factor in assisting to lose weight, in that case weights may have helped to a more successful run. My goal next June is to be 168-174 ... right now i am sitting at 185-188 the difference in my run will be noticeable.... i cant wait for next season though!! i hate winter!!! |
2009-08-28 9:13 PM in reply to: #2376677 |
Fishers, IN | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training I know lots of cyclists who swear by it, but pretty much all of the scientific data indicates that you are better off training to do what you want to do better, aka training specificity. From what I hear, working out with weights will also help burn calories by using more/different muscles than mere aerobic workouts. On the other hand, as has been stated - it is more important as you age to fight off the accompanying loss of muscle mass/strength. I plan to add this to my winter routine, small amount a couple of days a week. |
2009-08-28 10:05 PM in reply to: #2376677 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training I always get a kick out of topics like this. First, let the record state that I am not a huge fan of strength training but I do think it has it's benefits. I had a hamstring issue for a long time and when I hit the weight room it took less than a month for my injury to completely disappear. Similar story about my shoulder swimming in college. So I know without a doubt it prevents injury. Sorry I didn't write down the data for all the nay sayers. I also find it interesting that folks discount great athletes like Allen, Armstrong (below)etc. who lift weights for performance. There are some big names that do it and they spend a ton of money to get the best advice. Perhaps they have some insight. I personally think that at our (BT) general level of training it's always better to swim, bike or run, but to completely discount other means of training tends to short sighted and closed minded. |
2009-08-28 10:35 PM in reply to: #2377317 |
Champion 6046 New York, NY | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training JorgeM - 2009-08-28 7:11 PM TriToy - well I would like to continue to INCREASE my wattage not just have it hold steady, be able to accelerate when I need to including passing people. what's your power/weight ratio? I can guarantee I could help you increase it without touching one single weight, yes you would do plenty of strenght specific training but no need for weights and all because as you already know endurance sports are all about power and not strenght. The demands of pushing your 2 min max power (to pass someone) are minimal when compared to the strenght you need to do a maximal squat, not to mention if you are deeping into your 2 min max power for anything over a sprint you probably would benefit from learning how to use power to pace better. Power is the ability to do work over time...currently 3.35 watts/kg so room to improve yes. I don't do max squats during the season and actually last year did not do max but did do heavy sets in the late fall/winter. power is not totally divorced from strength.... I also do intervals on the computrainer to increase power so I think all work in concert. |
2009-08-28 10:38 PM in reply to: #2376677 |
Champion 5376 PA | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training |
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2009-08-28 11:38 PM in reply to: #2376677 |
Pro 5761 Bartlett, TN | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training Honestly we do strength training because of the photographers that are out there and we run without a shirt. |
2009-08-29 9:18 AM in reply to: #2377594 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training tjfry - 2009-08-28 10:05 PM I always get a kick out of topics like this. First, let the record state that I am not a huge fan of strength training but I do think it has it's benefits. I had a hamstring issue for a long time and when I hit the weight room it took less than a month for my injury to completely disappear. Similar story about my shoulder swimming in college. So I know without a doubt it prevents injury. Sorry I didn't write down the data for all the nay sayers. I also find it interesting that folks discount great athletes like Allen, Armstrong (below)etc. who lift weights for performance. There are some big names that do it and they spend a ton of money to get the best advice. Perhaps they have some insight. I personally think that at our (BT) general level of training it's always better to swim, bike or run, but to completely discount other means of training tends to short sighted and closed minded. No one discounts benefits of strenght training in fact most of us suggest specific strenght training is important for any complete optimal training program; but ST does not mean weight lifting, more specifically the type of weight lift most AGers tend to incorporate on their programs. I think Mikethebear made a great post at some point at the ST forum about the poor type of exercises and tehcnique applied by most AGers, in addition many of the exercises adviced by coaches who have little or no experience in adequate ST usually are rather poor. To your humorous point that because a great athlete applies x or y then it most be good; following your logic since Zapotek ran a marathon without shoes then that should tell us something about performance and equipment? What about Allen and his addition of shamanism to training, does that mean if we add it as well our chances to win Kona will increase? What about Chrissie and her incredible physiology yet she doesn't believe in weight lifting, does that disproves ST is not important? You and many like to hang their hats on anecdotal evidence and that's at least my contention in this debates. I have no problem believing that you believe if you do not add weight lifting you'll end up injure and that's fine, yet the available data suggests otherwise hence you can't conclusively suggest weight lifting = no injuries like many proponents like to suggest. I can believe you have found a mix that helps your specific physiology and I agree that ST can help in injury rehabilitation but I just haven't seen or experienced the prevention part. In fact there is plenty of evidence suggesting most sport related injuries (not accute but chronic) are a result of poor training management load and not because of muscles imbalances or mechanical issues. Furtermore ther is little evidence that weight lifting improves endurance performance yet there is much more evidence presentig the opposite, yet that doesn't stop athletes/coaches making amazing claims. I have no problem if athletes choose to include weight lifting in their routines, that's their preference, choice and as I always say: some training is better than no training in particular for most athletes around here who have far from optimal training plans. However I will continue to debate when someone conclusively present opinions as facts when the available research and literatuyre indicates different. Opinions are not facts, just facts are indeed that, hence if people qualify their statements as opinions rather than facts most of these debates wouldn't take place as often as they do. |
2009-08-29 9:27 AM in reply to: #2376677 |
Regular 75 Dorchester | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training For what its worth. I came from being a 4-5 time per week routine of lifting weights into this sport of tri about two months ago. I believe that it helped me get a jump on my training as I was muscle fit, but I have learned that the bulk was akward more than anything. I have done very little weights since my training has begun, but would suggest doing low weights multiple reps and sets. Again, this is if time permits Pro's probably have more time to add weights to their programs as this is their job for 8 hours a day. I am assuming u have a paying job as well. If anything that I have brought from my background, it is the understanding of nutrition and how different intakes of food and supplements affect my body both positive and negative. |
2009-08-29 9:32 AM in reply to: #2376677 |
Expert 1118 , North Carolina | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training Oh wow, this is all very fascinating. I've been wondering why so many training logs lack strength training and now I know! I originally started weights to boost metabolisim, but mainly now for the bone density benefits so I don't get osteoporosis later on. |
2009-08-29 11:54 AM in reply to: #2377823 |
Veteran 141 Wolverine, Michigan | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training One point to this has been overlooked. EVERYBODY IS DIFFERENT! What works for one person may not work for the next. I have found, at least as it applies to weight lifting that I require more recovery time. when I added more rest, I made quicker gains. This was against what almost any published bodybuilding plan would recommend. It may have something to do with my metabolism, I was taking in 5,000+ calories a day, but could not get past 148 lbs. Since this is my first year for tri's I haven't experimented enough with recovery periods for endurance training to find my optimum level. Unfortunately, this is a little art and a little science. |
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2009-08-29 12:16 PM in reply to: #2376677 |
Master 2355 Houston, TX | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training I think most str training for triathlons is silly. I don't think it hurts you, but I also don't think you gain anything. You'll see a guy win and state that it's his strength training that made the difference. The next week you'll see a guy who says it's his lack of strength training and focus on just bike, run and swim that made the difference. *shrug* have fun, do what you want. I don't think it's going to hurt you too much either way. |
2009-08-29 1:13 PM in reply to: #2377962 |
Extreme Veteran 567 Kingwood, TX | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training Thanks everyone who has given their opinions in this thread. As a new triathlete the balance between s/b/r and strength training has been difficult to wrap my mind around. I just started logging my workouts on BT about a month ago and have been averaging about 4.5 hours of ST a week. After reading all the opinions this is probably overkill. However, the previous 6 months of nothing but s/b/r training left me feeling and looking, well, skinny and weak. So I think a lot of the ST I am doing right now is for nothing more than my own vanity, but I feel absolutely wonderful and my overall confidence has increased as a result ... thats gotta count for something! This debate is great! |
2009-08-29 2:08 PM in reply to: #2377330 |
Champion 34263 Chicago | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training JorgeM - 2009-08-28 6:20 PM mr2tony - 2009-08-28 3:05 PM If you like to strength train then strength train. Don't let anybody tell you that you shouldn't do something you enjoy because they think it's a waste of time. I'd say that 25 percent of your time on strength is a bit excessive. I'm down to maybe one or two lifting sessions a week, which sucks, but I just don't have the time (nor the heart) to put in another two or three hours a week at the gym. how exactly does lifting one or two times x week benefits you? please be concise and don't throw anecdotal evidence.mr2tony - 2009-08-28 3:05 PM Anyway, I disagree that strength training isn't beneficial. I contend that it will prevent injuries. If not, why do personal trainers recommend, every time I hurt something, that I `strengthen the (insert muscle)' ... so had I strengthened said muscle before, perhaps I wouldn't have injured it??? So you based this conlcusion anecodotal evidence only? uummm okeeeyyy. It is simple not as conlusive as one would like it to believe, in fact most injuries for endurance athletes are because of poor training and lot because of muscles imbalances or lack of strenght as you want to believe. I can given you examples of many of my athletes who do not weight lift at all yet they have been injury free, how would that be possible? A) Because I enjoy strength training. B) Because lifting weights is more fun than swimming, biking OR running. OK maybe not running. Do you have a chart or a study that shows that lifting weights is NOT more fun than swimming, biking or running. Will it make me faster in a triathlon? Probably not. Will it help prevent injuries. I don't know. Do I like to do it? Yes. Therefore, I will continue to lift weights a couple times a week. Don't like it, don't do it. We allllll know you don't like weight training. We allllll know that you have studies that you can cite that show strength training doesn't make you a faster triathlete. Who cares? I'm not going to win the race ever, nor do I want to put in the time it takes to win the race. So i'm going to take my happy butt to the gym a couple times a week and pump some iron. Yes I'm basing my conclusion on anecdotal evidence and information I received from a trained physical therapist rather than believing something I read on the Internet. |
2009-08-29 2:49 PM in reply to: #2376677 |
Pro 4828 The Land of Ice and Snow | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training Hmmm.........I think all the boys should strength train...yes.....most definitely.....terribly important. |
2009-08-29 4:33 PM in reply to: #2378066 |
Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training mr2tony - 2009-08-29 12:08 PM A) Because I enjoy strength training. B) Because lifting weights is more fun than swimming, biking OR running. OK maybe not running. Do you have a chart or a study that shows that lifting weights is NOT more fun than swimming, biking or running. Will it make me faster in a triathlon? Probably not. Will it help prevent injuries. I don't know. Do I like to do it? Yes. Therefore, I will continue to lift weights a couple times a week. Don't like it, don't do it. We allllll know you don't like weight training. We allllll know that you have studies that you can cite that show strength training doesn't make you a faster triathlete. Who cares? I'm not going to win the race ever, nor do I want to put in the time it takes to win the race. So i'm going to take my happy butt to the gym a couple times a week and pump some iron. Yes I'm basing my conclusion on anecdotal evidence and information I received from a trained physical therapist rather than believing something I read on the Internet. A - Enough of a reason to lift B - Another good reason Everyone has their anecdotal studies, etc. Mine comes from my relatively injury free career, my college degree and studies I've read. It works for me. I don't believe it contributes much to being competitive in a triathlon. I don't believe it contributes significantly to injury prevention (I think stretching does more, another anecdotal fight ), but if you aren't gunning for a podium and you want a better "look" than the bottom heavy typical elite, go for it. John |
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2009-08-30 3:34 AM in reply to: #2376677 |
Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training You all are still having arguments on this topic? I found a simple solution to this problem: I gave up triathlons to pursue Olympic weightlifting. Really. At least for now. I may come back to tris in a few years. |
2009-08-30 6:56 AM in reply to: #2378552 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training MikeTheBear - 2009-08-30 4:34 AM You all are still having arguments on this topic? I found a simple solution to this problem: I gave up triathlons to pursue Olympic weightlifting. Really. At least for now. I may come back to tris in a few years. People still argue over the best way to count laps in the pool Mike (instead of just 1, 2, 3, etc.), why do you think there wouldn't be a "discussion" on the topic? Oh, and good luck with your lifting!! |
2009-08-30 7:03 AM in reply to: #2376744 |
New user 476 | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training the bear - 2009-08-28 2:34 PM lengthcroft - 2009-08-28 1:30 PM gsmacleod - 2009-08-28 1:24 PM IMO there are many reasons why an athlete would choose to do strength training, but improved performance should not be one of them. In an endurance activity, an athlete is not pushing against the fastest they can possibly go (strength) but rather the fastest they can maintain over the duration of the event (power). In order to improve power for SBR, an athlete needs to simply SBR (at a variety of durations and intensities). Shane I have no idea who is right or wrong (which is why I was asking the question), but Mark Allen, who is supposedly one of the greatest triathletes ever, says the following: Lifting or strength training Strength training is one of the most commonly overlooked tools available to improve your performance with a minimum of additional training time. A well-executed strength program can actually allow you to cut up to 25% out of your aerobic training and have even better results! Anyone, even a triathlon legend, can make a statement and pass it off as fact. Real question is what does he base this on? Hard science, back by peer-reviewed research? Anecdotal evidence? The quest to sell more books/plans? Do you have evidence that contradicts this? Evidence that supports using this time to swim/bike/run is better then taking the time to weight train? |
2009-08-30 7:07 AM in reply to: #2378066 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training mr2tony - 2009-08-29 2:08 PM A) Because I enjoy strength training. B) Because lifting weights is more fun than swimming, biking OR running. OK maybe not running. Do you have a chart or a study that shows that lifting weights is NOT more fun than swimming, biking or running. Will it make me faster in a triathlon? Probably not. Will it help prevent injuries. I don't know. Do I like to do it? Yes. Therefore, I will continue to lift weights a couple times a week. Don't like it, don't do it. We allllll know you don't like weight training. We allllll know that you have studies that you can cite that show strength training doesn't make you a faster triathlete. Who cares? I'm not going to win the race ever, nor do I want to put in the time it takes to win the race. So i'm going to take my happy butt to the gym a couple times a week and pump some iron. Yes I'm basing my conclusion on anecdotal evidence and information I received from a trained physical therapist rather than believing something I read on the Internet. See, that's the point I was hoping to make. I don't recall anyone ever suggesting avoiding weight lifting to any athlete specifically when he/she specifically enjoy the activity. I personally never done so; I have suggested weight lifting won't improve performance or prevent injuries when an athlete has suggested that's the reason as to why they include it into their training program. If that was the case I personally would doubt muscle imbalances or lack of 'strength' would be the root of any injuries if you would have any. My guess right away would be poor training load management and I would look into that and previous injuries history as way to prevent it if staying injury-free was a goal of yours and you could accomplish that weithout lifting one single dumbbell. You don't need to have goals about maximal performance or winning races to choose to training smart. We all do this for fun, yet I know I have more fun when I can actually train than when I can't do so. Racing and results are just the icing on the cake. Either way; enjoy pumping iron and have fun training/racing. |
2009-08-30 7:09 AM in reply to: #2378552 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training MikeTheBear - 2009-08-30 3:34 AM You all are still having arguments on this topic? I found a simple solution to this problem: I gave up triathlons to pursue Olympic weightlifting. Really. At least for now. I may come back to tris in a few years. I hope you stick around cuz you usually have great advice for those AGers who choose to and enjoy adding WL and other types of ST into their programs. |
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2009-08-30 9:37 AM in reply to: #2378593 |
Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training JC5066 - 2009-08-30 5:03 AM the bear - 2009-08-28 2:34 PM lengthcroft - 2009-08-28 1:30 PM gsmacleod - 2009-08-28 1:24 PM IMO there are many reasons why an athlete would choose to do strength training, but improved performance should not be one of them. In an endurance activity, an athlete is not pushing against the fastest they can possibly go (strength) but rather the fastest they can maintain over the duration of the event (power). In order to improve power for SBR, an athlete needs to simply SBR (at a variety of durations and intensities). Shane I have no idea who is right or wrong (which is why I was asking the question), but Mark Allen, who is supposedly one of the greatest triathletes ever, says the following: Lifting or strength training Strength training is one of the most commonly overlooked tools available to improve your performance with a minimum of additional training time. A well-executed strength program can actually allow you to cut up to 25% out of your aerobic training and have even better results! Anyone, even a triathlon legend, can make a statement and pass it off as fact. Real question is what does he base this on? Hard science, back by peer-reviewed research? Anecdotal evidence? The quest to sell more books/plans? Do you have evidence that contradicts this? Evidence that supports using this time to swim/bike/run is better then taking the time to weight train? Read through the entire thread. There have been a couple posted. Bottom line is for every one that says no, there's another that says yes. Hence the debate. John |
2009-08-30 12:31 PM in reply to: #2376677 |
Expert 828 | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training I have not read past page 1, so this may have been brought up... I cannot quote chapter and verse of this study...however, I was reading on strength training for cycling 3 or 4 years ago. Without remembering all of the details, bottom line was this. Strength training helped beginner cyclist an amount that improved times over "X" distance by 10-30%. The more trained the cyclist, the less the benefit, to the point that the pros benefit probably wasn't worth the time lost off of the bike to lift weights....My personal experience is this: When I did add one day a week of leg work and low back/core, my hill climbing improved. (30 rep sets, slow and methodical...and painful as he**....) I liked being stronger on the hills. It did nothing for me on the flats at mile 50 of a ride. |
2009-08-30 2:44 PM in reply to: #2378844 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training Rad-Onc PA - 2009-08-30 12:31 PM I have not read past page 1, so this may have been brought up... I cannot quote chapter and verse of this study...however, I was reading on strength training for cycling 3 or 4 years ago. Without remembering all of the details, bottom line was this. Strength training helped beginner cyclist an amount that improved times over "X" distance by 10-30%. The more trained the cyclist, the less the benefit, to the point that the pros benefit probably wasn't worth the time lost off of the bike to lift weights....My personal experience is this: When I did add one day a week of leg work and low back/core, my hill climbing improved. (30 rep sets, slow and methodical...and painful as he**....) I liked being stronger on the hills. It did nothing for me on the flats at mile 50 of a ride. That's because untrained individuals are so far from their optimal potential fitness level than any training will produce benefits, even parking the car at the far end of the shopping mall and walking an extra 15 min will be beneficial given their lack of fitness, still that doesn't mean ST is a better way to improve one's specific sport fitness level. If you want to improve your run fitness you run more, you do not WL. Untrained individuals are usually not good subjects to present significant results on research studies of this nature. If I grab 2 untrained individuals with the same physiological characteristics and one does 4 hrs of running and 2hrs of WL and the other one does 6hrs of running I am willing to bet the latter will improve faster. Furthermore, the Pros out to benefit of specific ST to gain that small extra % of fitness over their competition. For them tinny % gains in fitness/economy can be significant between winning or losing. I could make you stronger for climbing without doing one single weight lifting rep... If you look at the best cycling climbers (Contador, Schlecks) you'll notice they are rather thin individuals yet their ability to produce power is superior and that has little to do with strenght... Edited by JorgeM 2009-08-30 2:46 PM |
2009-08-30 2:55 PM in reply to: #2378596 |
Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training JorgeM - 2009-08-30 7:09 AM MikeTheBear - 2009-08-30 3:34 AM You all are still having arguments on this topic? I found a simple solution to this problem: I gave up triathlons to pursue Olympic weightlifting. Really. At least for now. I may come back to tris in a few years. I hope you stick around cuz you usually have great advice for those AGers who choose to and enjoy adding WL and other types of STÂ into their programs.I definitely plan on sticking around because I like the people here. And I have gained much respect for endurance athletes. This stuff ain't easy. |
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