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Swim fitness or technique? (Page 3)
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 2015-08-10 7:06 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
 246  |  Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique?If you're gassed on 50's then my guess is that you're not breathing properly. Probably going into oxygen debt pretty early from not exhaling all your air. Your inhalations get shorter and shorter until you're out. |
| 2015-08-11 10:03 PM in reply to: 0 |
Regular 134 Oregon | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? of course everyone who insists "BOTH" is correct. But if we must pick one...then for me my technique is my major limiter. I'm generally in great shape. I have no problems running 60+ minutes at a decent pace. I'd guess most triathletes are generally "fit" if they've been doing it a while, so I know I'm nothing special. but I think I'm also "mentally fit" when it comes to sports in that I have a positive attitude, I'm receptive to coaching, I'm competitive, and I can stay determined and focused for long stretches of time. Why am I bragging about all that stuff? Because none of it seems to be worth a damn in the pool! (except maybe some of the mental fitness stuff). None of my fitness in other areas has seemed to carry over to swimming. Except maybe gymnastics of all things....I was a gymnast for 9 years and I think that helped me learn my balance, flip turns, and dive starts faster. Anyways...coach said I learned them really fast. At least there is SOMETHING I learned quickly in the pool....swimming?....not yet.... Edited by themissj1981 2015-08-11 10:06 PM |
| 2015-08-11 10:25 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655  | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by themissj1981 of course everyone who insists "BOTH" is correct. But if we must pick one...then for me my technique is my major limiter.. Actually, no they aren't. Your second comment is correct. All you have to do is swim for a year or so, and be really fit, and then race a 100 against someone who is completely out of shape but who swam millions of yards as a young person and actually learned to swim. They'll beat you handily. I guess you can say that you could beat them in a 1000 since they are out of shape......but that won't work either since they'll just rest on the wall until you catch up and then smash you in another 100. I'm not picking on you.....you have it right. Learn to swim well.....that's what fast swimming is. The "fitness" comes in the learning. Edited by Left Brain 2015-08-11 10:27 PM |
| 2015-08-12 1:42 AM in reply to: themissj1981 |
| 471 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by themissj1981 Because none of it seems to be worth a damn in the pool! It's not that you lack swim fitness, more of a case of poor technique meaning your body is working much harder than someone who has good technique. Also as someone alluded to earlier - "If you're gassed on 50's then my guess is that you're not breathing properly." A lot of people don't breathe properly, they hold their breath, they don't blow out underwater, they don't exhale sufficiently. This is one of the reasons why bilateral breathing is so important, not just for symmetry, but also because it gives you time to exhale, whereas breathing every two does not. |
| 2015-08-12 5:10 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? |
| 2015-08-12 5:12 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by themissj1981 of course everyone who insists "BOTH" is correct. But if we must pick one...then for me my technique is my major limiter. I'm generally in great shape. I have no problems running 60+ minutes at a decent pace. I'd guess most triathletes are generally "fit" if they've been doing it a while, so I know I'm nothing special. but I think I'm also "mentally fit" when it comes to sports in that I have a positive attitude, I'm receptive to coaching, I'm competitive, and I can stay determined and focused for long stretches of time. Everyone has opinions and they are just that ; opinions, but this is how I read that quote from Sousa. a) Being fit out of the water and being fit in the water are 2 different things. Make the winner of the crossfit games, swim a 1500m hard event without training and he will struggle to hold the pace he is capable on a 100m. The pace you can do on a fast 100 is largely dependant on your technique. Your ability to hold it over 1500m is your fitness. A huge problem people have is their technique goes down the tube very quickly as they tire. It's very difficult to develop technique without fitness. b) technique is king, hands down. But how I read that quote is you develop your technique while doing real swimming. Drills are good, in moderation. At one point you have x hours per week to swim. If you are using all that time on drills, a) your technique is not going to improve that much b) you won;t develop fitness which is key to continuing to develop your technique. Some people associate developing their technique with doing drills. If you are a very very beginner swimmer, learning to float, breath, time your kick....are a critical base. But at one point you have to start working on your technique in the context of building form and just swimming a lot. Edited by marcag 2015-08-12 5:25 AM |
| 2015-08-12 5:33 AM in reply to: themissj1981 |
Master 8250  Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? On the positive side.....if you're a gymnast you probably have decent proprioception (feel for what your body is doing in space). You just have to learn what proper technique looks and feels like for a new sport, and internalize it. It may not feel like an advantage now, but it's useful.I've struggled with that all my life; had to be taught to swim by the coach literally moving me through the stroke, and as an adult I'm embarrassed how many times I've hit my head on the rack in transition.....I'm a decent swimmer, but trying to learn something new, like bilateral breathing or some of the new turn and stroke techniques is torture--it takes me months or years to change anything, because I have so little clue what I'm doing in the water. |
| 2015-08-12 6:28 AM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by nc452010 ^Could you slow to 2:10/100 and not see your form suffer? Me personally? Probably not. Could someone else? Maybe. That's the whole point of the drill. It reveals technique flaws, so if you take a swimmer who's T-pace is 1:10, they probably can slow to a 2:00 pace without many noticeable technique issues. Ask a swimmer with a 1:40 T-pace to do the same, and they'll struggle a lot more. Don, I'm not so sure that's true. I honestly don't know what I would have to do to slow down to 2:00 short of massive pauses between each stroke. Of course that might just mean I have a bunch of technique flaws. You can pause at times (like the stun gun drill), or you can just slow all the movements way down. It's like swimming in slow motion. It can be an incredibly challenging drill for someone like you (and myself) who swims in that 1:20-1:40 range, because we're fast enough to benefit a lot from lift, but the technique usually isn't there that's needed to swim closer to a 1:00 pace. When the lift generated by speed is removed, balance issues tend to rear their ugly head. Well, I was wrong. I tried it this morning and I was able to do a 2:15 for 100m simply by slowing everything down and putting no muscle effort into my pull. Only real issue I had was I was riding a bit lower in the water so I had to rotate my head a bit more to breathe. |
Maybe I will try it next time I am in the pool to see what happens.
| 2015-08-12 6:47 AM in reply to: marcag |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by themissj1981 of course everyone who insists "BOTH" is correct. But if we must pick one...then for me my technique is my major limiter. I'm generally in great shape. I have no problems running 60+ minutes at a decent pace. I'd guess most triathletes are generally "fit" if they've been doing it a while, so I know I'm nothing special. but I think I'm also "mentally fit" when it comes to sports in that I have a positive attitude, I'm receptive to coaching, I'm competitive, and I can stay determined and focused for long stretches of time. Everyone has opinions and they are just that ; opinions, but this is how I read that quote from Sousa. a) Being fit out of the water and being fit in the water are 2 different things. Make the winner of the crossfit games, swim a 1500m hard event without training and he will struggle to hold the pace he is capable on a 100m. The pace you can do on a fast 100 is largely dependant on your technique. Your ability to hold it over 1500m is your fitness. A huge problem people have is their technique goes down the tube very quickly as they tire. It's very difficult to develop technique without fitness. b) technique is king, hands down. But how I read that quote is you develop your technique while doing real swimming. Drills are good, in moderation. At one point you have x hours per week to swim. If you are using all that time on drills, a) your technique is not going to improve that much b) you won;t develop fitness which is key to continuing to develop your technique. Some people associate developing their technique with doing drills. If you are a very very beginner swimmer, learning to float, breath, time your kick....are a critical base. But at one point you have to start working on your technique in the context of building form and just swimming a lot. This. and the comment above from zedzded about having to work so much harder to overcome drag. You can be in good enough shape to run for 60 mins at a decent pace but if you put on a heavy weight vest and shackle your ankles to limit your movement, you will have a really hard time running at any sort of pace as well. |
| 2015-08-12 7:10 AM in reply to: marcag |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by marcag there was a great quote from Paulo Sousa, one of the better coaches in the sport "Technique goes a long way in swimming, but it's nothing without fitness. Working on your fitness works on technique. The opposite is not true." This. Also it is worth reading Joel Filliol's swim rules: http://joelfilliol.blogspot.ca/2012/01/most-popular-post-on-this-bl... Shane |
| 2015-08-12 7:15 AM in reply to: marcag |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by marcag Everyone has opinions and they are just that ; opinions, but this is how I read that quote from Sousa. a) Being fit out of the water and being fit in the water are 2 different things. Make the winner of the crossfit games, swim a 1500m hard event without training and he will struggle to hold the pace he is capable on a 100m. The pace you can do on a fast 100 is largely dependant on your technique. Your ability to hold it over 1500m is your fitness. A huge problem people have is their technique goes down the tube very quickly as they tire. It's very difficult to develop technique without fitness. b) technique is king, hands down. But how I read that quote is you develop your technique while doing real swimming. Drills are good, in moderation. At one point you have x hours per week to swim. If you are using all that time on drills, a) your technique is not going to improve that much b) you won;t develop fitness which is key to continuing to develop your technique. Some people associate developing their technique with doing drills. If you are a very very beginner swimmer, learning to float, breath, time your kick....are a critical base. But at one point you have to start working on your technique in the context of building form and just swimming a lot. The other issue with drills IMO is that an athlete needs to know both how to do the drill and what they are supposed to gain from the drill. In many cases, the athlete just flails through the drills and learns nothing. For most athletes who swim without a coach on deck, I think their drills would be best replaced by band work, descending 50's, all out 25s, etc. Swim fast for short durations focused on good form and sufficient rest to repeat it. Shane |
| 2015-08-12 7:30 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
New user 246 madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? My $.02: (it's worth exactly what you paid for it) I think technique is EVERYTHING. I'm a late-in-life swimmer who never really got in the water until age 30. Now I'm a 1:30/100 distance swimmer. Sure, I've gotten better fitness, but my improvements in technique have 10-fold improved my time over my fitness. One of the things that I LOVE about swimming is that just because I am a man, I'm don't really have a leg-up on a woman. Depending on the day of the week, I regularly swim with two different women in my lane. One kicks the crap out of me and the other I'm slightly faster than. The second used to kick the crap out of me until I got my stroke refined. My point to that is that just because we are strong, testosterone laden men, doesn't mean squat when it comes to being fast in the water. |
| 2015-08-12 7:42 AM in reply to: pwoolson |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by pwoolson My $.02: (it's worth exactly what you paid for it) I think technique is EVERYTHING. I'm a late-in-life swimmer who never really got in the water until age 30. Now I'm a 1:30/100 distance swimmer. Sure, I've gotten better fitness, but my improvements in technique have 10-fold improved my time over my fitness. One of the things that I LOVE about swimming is that just because I am a man, I'm don't really have a leg-up on a woman. Depending on the day of the week, I regularly swim with two different women in my lane. One kicks the crap out of me and the other I'm slightly faster than. The second used to kick the crap out of me until I got my stroke refined. My point to that is that just because we are strong, testosterone laden men, doesn't mean squat when it comes to being fast in the water. You believe technique is everything because triathletes are terrible swimmers! It is easy to be FOP with nothing but good technique. I swim 2000 yards once a week and have a torn rotator cuff and can out of the water in 6th on Sundays sprint and 14th in my IM in June. This is all technique yes but I can do this because the standard for triathletes in the swim is so low. |
| 2015-08-12 7:57 AM in reply to: marcag |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by marcag Everyone has opinions and they are just that ; opinions, but this is how I read that quote from Sousa. a) Being fit out of the water and being fit in the water are 2 different things. Make the winner of the crossfit games, swim a 1500m hard event without training and he will struggle to hold the pace he is capable on a 100m. The pace you can do on a fast 100 is largely dependant on your technique. Your ability to hold it over 1500m is your fitness. A huge problem people have is their technique goes down the tube very quickly as they tire. It's very difficult to develop technique without fitness. b) technique is king, hands down. But how I read that quote is you develop your technique while doing real swimming. Drills are good, in moderation. At one point you have x hours per week to swim. If you are using all that time on drills, a) your technique is not going to improve that much b) you won;t develop fitness which is key to continuing to develop your technique. Some people associate developing their technique with doing drills. If you are a very very beginner swimmer, learning to float, breath, time your kick....are a critical base. But at one point you have to start working on your technique in the context of building form and just swimming a lot. Nicely put, with this and Paolo's quote. |
| 2015-08-12 8:15 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by pwoolson My $.02: (it's worth exactly what you paid for it) I think technique is EVERYTHING. I'm a late-in-life swimmer who never really got in the water until age 30. Now I'm a 1:30/100 distance swimmer. Sure, I've gotten better fitness, but my improvements in technique have 10-fold improved my time over my fitness. One of the things that I LOVE about swimming is that just because I am a man, I'm don't really have a leg-up on a woman. Depending on the day of the week, I regularly swim with two different women in my lane. One kicks the crap out of me and the other I'm slightly faster than. The second used to kick the crap out of me until I got my stroke refined. My point to that is that just because we are strong, testosterone laden men, doesn't mean squat when it comes to being fast in the water. You believe technique is everything because triathletes are terrible swimmers! It is easy to be FOP with nothing but good technique. I swim 2000 yards once a week and have a torn rotator cuff and can out of the water in 6th on Sundays sprint and 14th in my IM in June. This is all technique yes but I can do this because the standard for triathletes in the swim is so low. Yes and you do that with technique. If you wanted to be true FOP in major IM events you would need to swim much more than that and be 10 minutes faster, at east, and 10min fasterin your case does not come with more technique, it comes with lots of swimming. Edited by marcag 2015-08-12 8:18 AM |
| 2015-08-12 8:22 AM in reply to: 0 |
New user 246 madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? True story. However, if someone were to swim 10K per day, they would not get much faster than they were if they don't improve their technique. Point being, one could practice 'till the cows come home, but it's not going to do much good if you don't do it right. (it could actually do harm. Things like blown shoulders/elbows, etc) Edited by pwoolson 2015-08-12 8:23 AM |
| 2015-08-12 8:32 AM in reply to: pwoolson |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by pwoolson True story. However, if someone were to swim 10K per day, they would not get much faster than they were if they don't improve their technique. Point being, one could practice 'till the cows come home, but it's not going to do much good if you don't do it right. (it could actually do harm. Things like blown shoulders/elbows, etc) While doing lots of volume one should also be stressing their technique. The volume isn't done mindlessly. It's common to have an aspect of the stroke to emphasize during a swim session too. Also know that when done well, swimming really fast can also really emphasize the skill aspect. You figure out how to slip through the water more effectively. It's not just about pulling really hard. Fast & smooth. Go quick and let the hard feeling come. |
| 2015-08-12 9:16 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? A simple question to ponder - if you think of someone with great technique, how did they develop that great technique? Shane |
| 2015-08-12 9:31 AM in reply to: 0 |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by pwoolson My $.02: (it's worth exactly what you paid for it) I think technique is EVERYTHING. I'm a late-in-life swimmer who never really got in the water until age 30. Now I'm a 1:30/100 distance swimmer. Sure, I've gotten better fitness, but my improvements in technique have 10-fold improved my time over my fitness. One of the things that I LOVE about swimming is that just because I am a man, I'm don't really have a leg-up on a woman. Depending on the day of the week, I regularly swim with two different women in my lane. One kicks the crap out of me and the other I'm slightly faster than. The second used to kick the crap out of me until I got my stroke refined. My point to that is that just because we are strong, testosterone laden men, doesn't mean squat when it comes to being fast in the water. You believe technique is everything because triathletes are terrible swimmers! It is easy to be FOP with nothing but good technique. I swim 2000 yards once a week and have a torn rotator cuff and can out of the water in 6th on Sundays sprint and 14th in my IM in June. This is all technique yes but I can do this because the standard for triathletes in the swim is so low. Yes and you do that with technique. If you wanted to be true FOP in major IM events you would need to swim much more than that and be 10 minutes faster, at east, and 10min fasterin your case does not come with more technique, it comes with lots of swimming. Yes, 30 years ago I was top 10 in the state, so I know exactly what it takes to get there. However my time is better spent running since that is by far my weakness. I was just pointing out that it all looks like technique because triathlete's in general( not the top guys) are pathetic swimmers. Edited by mike761 2015-08-12 9:32 AM |
| 2015-08-12 9:32 AM in reply to: 0 |
| 319 Sarasota, Florida | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Do experienced swimmers still practice improving their technique? Honest question. My next question is why is the swimming event so short? I would imagine because it demands a higher intensity of fitness? I guess in my inexperienced mind, I see the 2 eventually intersecting once technique improves to a point where fitness becomes more important. Edited by runtim23 2015-08-12 9:32 AM |
| 2015-08-12 9:47 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by runtim23 Do experienced swimmers still practice improving their technique? Honest question. My next question is why is the swimming event so short? I would imagine because it demands a higher intensity of fitness? I guess in my inexperienced mind, I see the 2 eventually intersecting once technique improves to a point where fitness becomes more important. there is a lady that I see regularly at the pool. She was top 10 last year at the masters worlds in the open water swim (3k I think). She goes up and down the pool, over and over, probably 5k per practice. Now and then you see her doing some drills, some kicking, the occasional snorkel, then she bangs out 10x200m fast, then a few drills, then a set of super fast 50s...You can see she is focused on her technique. But she does a ton of volume. Another guy is also a top 10 in the world for his age. He's a russian dude. He's funny. He does super fast 100s backstroke, with a tea cup on his forehead. Smooth as silk. But super duper fast. Also bangs out 4000m per session. Sometimes he slows down a bit and you can see he is focusing on his stroke, but he's still banging out fast 100s with 10s rest. There is a young girl, maybe 24, ex U of Michigan swimmer. She also does about 4k per workout. Some kicking, you see her sometimes doing the occasional drill but mostly repeats of 50s, 100s, 200s. Every so often I ask her a question. It typically goes like this "do you do X or Y ?". She responds with "I don't know, hold on", she proceeds to swim a 100 and comes back and says "Y. I just do it naturally so I wasn't sure" I wouldn't want people to misread some of the previous posts. Technique is everything. How you develop that technique is the big point. I have done it myself and have seen others make the mistake. They do all kinds of unsupervised drills to improve what they think is their weakness. They do it at the expense of harder swimming. The "drills" take up the majority of the little time they have to swim. They do it outside the context of "real swimming". And they get slower. Edited by marcag 2015-08-12 9:53 AM |
| 2015-08-12 9:51 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by gsmacleod A simple question to ponder - if you think of someone with great technique, how did they develop that great technique? Shane Indeed |
| 2015-08-12 9:52 AM in reply to: runtim23 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by runtim23 Do experienced swimmers still practice improving their technique? Honest question. Absolutely. In the lead up to the '08 Olympics, USA Swimming hired a PhD in physiology to develop a system to analyze swim power and in conjunction with underwater video, help athletes improve their technique. My next question is why is the swimming event so short? I would imagine because it demands a higher intensity of fitness? For the IM, it's because three different endurance events were rolled together. I guess in my inexperienced mind, I see the 2 eventually intersecting once technique improves to a point where fitness becomes more important. Once one knows how to swim, the question technique or fitness is a false dichotomy. Shane |
| 2015-08-12 10:06 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by marcag there was a great quote from Paulo Sousa, one of the better coaches in the sport "Technique goes a long way in swimming, but it's nothing without fitness. Working on your fitness works on technique. The opposite is not true." This. Also it is worth reading Joel Filliol's swim rules: http://joelfilliol.blogspot.ca/2012/01/most-popular-post-on-this-bl... Shane Or not. I texted that quote to a USA swimming level 5 coach. His reply was, "let me guess, a triathlon coach who thinks he knows everything about swimming". I've had loooong discussions with him on this issue before, along with the other coach who is a former world record holder and also a level 5 coach. They both agree that most "coaches" have no idea how to build good technique and also don't understand how to use the drills, kick sets, and under water work to build fitness while the technique is improving. Go do some 2500-5000 yard kick sets and tell me how it's not helping fitness. LOL Go do 2500 yards of underwater dolphin kicking and tell me how it's not improving your fitness while making huge gains in your streamlining, blalance, and breath control for faster swimming. YOU HAVE TO LEARN TO SWIM!! You just can't build the proper fitness without building the proper technique. People who do triathlon and coach triathletes think they can because they get down to 1:30/100 or somewhere near there and can be FOP in local triathlons.....which is a fine goal or course, even though it's still a very slow 100 for a swimmer. I maintain that you can get faster by learning to swim better, you learn to swim better by refining your technique. People who swim like most triathletes will get fitter with the PROPER technique work. |
| 2015-08-12 10:08 AM in reply to: mike761 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim fitness or technique? Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by marcag triathlete's in general( not the top guys) are pathetic swimmers. Originally posted by mike761 Yes and you do that with technique. If you wanted to be true FOP in major IM events you would need to swim much more than that and be 10 minutes faster, at east, and 10min fasterin your case does not come with more technique, it comes with lots of swimming. Originally posted by pwoolson My $.02: (it's worth exactly what you paid for it) I think technique is EVERYTHING. I'm a late-in-life swimmer who never really got in the water until age 30. Now I'm a 1:30/100 distance swimmer. Sure, I've gotten better fitness, but my improvements in technique have 10-fold improved my time over my fitness. One of the things that I LOVE about swimming is that just because I am a man, I'm don't really have a leg-up on a woman. Depending on the day of the week, I regularly swim with two different women in my lane. One kicks the crap out of me and the other I'm slightly faster than. The second used to kick the crap out of me until I got my stroke refined. My point to that is that just because we are strong, testosterone laden men, doesn't mean squat when it comes to being fast in the water. You believe technique is everything because triathletes are terrible swimmers! It is easy to be FOP with nothing but good technique. I swim 2000 yards once a week and have a torn rotator cuff and can out of the water in 6th on Sundays sprint and 14th in my IM in June. This is all technique yes but I can do this because the standard for triathletes in the swim is so low. That about covers it.......and "swimming more" sure as hell isn't fixing it. |
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