Separation of Church and State? (Page 4)

gsmacleod - 2012-06-06 10:59 AM I am really curious as to what indoctrination they are receiving that needs to be untaught. Shane

crowny2 - 2012-06-06 6:53 AM

Ummm..... no.  Not really.

String theory  has all the trappings of science.  It's based on advanced math, supported by a decent percentage of experts in the field, and so forth.  And just because it's not yet proven doesn't mean it won't be.  The place it's in right now is the place where plenty of science's most rigorously-tested theories had once been.  However, in the place where it is right now, it's not a scientific theory.  It is part of the scientific process, though.

ID has none of that.

tuwood - 2012-06-06 11:04 AM

Is that a flying helicopter cat in the background?

mrbbrad - 2012-06-06 11:01 AM

It was service the schools provided to local youth athletic organizations. Flyers went home regularly for all sorts of community related events though I don't recall ever seeing religious or church based notices. Maybe the Christmas bazaar at the local Catholic Church but I may be mistaken on that. FWIW, this town had no non-Chrsitian churches or houses of worship. Should schools not be involved in the community? The tax paying members of that community fund the schools so why shouldn't the schools support those who pay them?

The school did not produce the flyers, only distributed them. In fact, they even had one day a week designated for flyers to be distributed so parents didn't have to root through backpacks every day. Those things can get pretty gross. I must have had a half dozen reams of paper come home with my two kids over the years. 

jmcconne - 2012-06-06 1:12 PM

Kids learn so much more than what is in a text book.  Younger kids especially.  They learn how to work in groups and do many other social activities with people their own age.  They get alot just from the diversity of the students in their class (if it exists).

The school was obviously not telling any of them to follow a certain religion.  It was a flyer.....  The backlash on this is the very reason that many Christians feel persecuted. On both sides people get very defensive on this type of thing, and they feel they have to go on the attack. If everyone could just be reasonable this would be simple. For example, an offer to attend something is OK while saying that you're going to Hell if you don't get to church is not OK.

kevin_trapp - 2012-06-06 10:40 AM

No, they shouldn't.  You want to post a flyer on a message board, or put a whole stack of them out in some common area for kids to pick up, fine.  But why would you expect the school to be your own personal post office?  If you really have to get your flyer in to the hands of every student, then get a student directory, buy a buttload of stamps, and start mailing.

jmk-brooklyn - 2012-06-06 11:14 AM That's what parochial schools are for. Or you could always home school. Honestly, I think most of the influences that kids get in school are from their peers, and not from the administration anyway. Sooner or later they're going to go out into the world and have their belief system challenged by people whom they respect and who are just as firm in their opposing beliefs as they are in theirs. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Despite your assertions to the contrary, it really sounds like you want them to be surrounded only by people who share the same beliefs and values that you have.

spudone - 2012-06-06 1:42 PM

More importantly I think kids are not given enough credit.

Lay out everything on the table for them and they will make up their own minds.  You don't need to "program" them.

SGriepsma - 2012-06-06 4:52 PM

What I expect is that they should leave their personal beliefs at the door and make an effort to express both sides of the issue.

gsmacleod - 2012-06-06 4:03 PM



But what if there isn't two sides? Two of the examples given were global warming and evolution; how does one responsibly present both sides of the issue in a science classroom? Global warming is happen and evolution is a scientific theory; there is no other side, at least not in the context of what special interest groups would have the general public believe.

Shane

SGriepsma - 2012-06-06 2:52 PM

I don't believe that his what he saying.  What he is asking for is to make it neutral.  I know that I had plenty of teachers that were very political, one way or the other, and I knew not to disagree because my grade would suffer.  It was more common in high school than the lower grades.  I just fed them what they wanted to hear and it is amazing how my grade differed.  What I expect is that they should leave their personal beliefs at the door and make an effort to express both sides of the issue. 

As a taxpayer, I shouldn't have to send my kids to private school to get a neutral classroom.

gsmacleod - 2012-06-06 1:03 PM But what if there isn't two sides? Two of the examples given were global warming and evolution; how does one responsibly present both sides of the issue in a science classroom? Global warming is happen and evolution is a scientific theory; there is no other side, at least not in the context of what special interest groups would have the general public believe. Shane

ratherbesnowboarding - 2012-06-06 3:50 PM

 

^^ This.

I work with a day camp for kids and this was the explanation that they gave us when we wanted to distribute our brochures for camp sessions.  They dont do it for anyone anymore.  But we are allowed to place our brochures with the other, non school supported activities.

Sending home a flier about a pep rally is OK.  It's supported and sponsored by the school.  Sending out a flier from the local youth service group is not OK as it is not part of the school system. 

SGriepsma - 2012-06-06 3:28 PM

They can both be taught with respect to "the other side".  For instance, in global warming the assumptions in the calculations could be discussed and could be used to illustrate that while it may not be an absolute answer the assumptions are explained and a student can draw conclusions for themselves and perhaps learn why some people don't agree with the theory.  Too often it is expressed in such a way that students feel stifled if they disagree.

As far as evolution, why can't you explain from the scientific angle and then address the religious aspect of what is believed.  Again, have some respect for differing beliefs. 

 

mrbbrad - 2012-06-06 4:29 PM

 . . . we sent flyers home through the schools. . . . Maybe this is the new world order.

Its Only Money - 2012-06-06 3:22 PM



I haven't been in a classroom in quite a while, but I suspect that the discussions around global warming are in the context of man made, rather than the ever changing climate that the earth has gone through since its existence. I don't think other theories are being presented in that case besides man made GW. While I am a believer in ID, I am not sure that it should be taught in schools anyway. I also don't really think that the church and state argument is valid in this case, the simple belief in ID is not showing preference to any one religion over another. I would suspect that there are agnostics who believe in ID.

As to the original question. The simple distribution of the flyer is not a violation of anyone's rights. I think the refusal to distribute any other flyer at a later date would be considered a violation. They either have a no distribution policy or a policy to distribute flyer of all comers (and by all I mean a flyer that is not promoting something that is already expressly illegal).

Climbinggonzo - 2012-06-05 2:43 PM

I'm curious to hear the opinions here about the following matter, whether it violates the law or just appears so on the surface.  A friend of mine lives here and has brought it out on facebook, I'm curious to get more opinions.

The Baraboo, WI school system sent home flyers with their students last week advertising an upcoming conference for this organization:  http://www.answersingenesis.org/  The conference is titled, "Using God's word for the world's questions".  My friend that lives there has complained and attempted to discuss this with the school district, however they are saying that they in no way are promoting the event, just passing the info along to the children.  Apparently another flyer for the event was handed out today in school as well.

Is this a clear cut violation of church/state laws or not?

SGriepsma - 2012-06-06 4:28 PM

They can both be taught with respect to "the other side".  For instance, in global warming the assumptions in the calculations could be discussed and could be used to illustrate that while it may not be an absolute answer the assumptions are explained and a student can draw conclusions for themselves and perhaps learn why some people don't agree with the theory.  Too often it is expressed in such a way that students feel stifled if they disagree.

As far as evolution, why can't you explain from the scientific angle and then address the religious aspect of what is believed.  Again, have some respect for differing beliefs. 

briderdt - 2012-06-06 4:43 PM

But what of secular humanism?

mr2tony - 2012-06-06 4:33 PM

. . But allowing a church to hand out flyers advertising its services in a public tax-funded school, no. That's a clear violation of church and state.

Its Only Money - 2012-06-06 4:50 PM The problem is that in the past people did not offer the free expression of all groups so we are now stuck with an absolute.

jmk-brooklyn - 2012-06-06 3:27 PM 

I would like more clarity on what he considers to be “anti-religion” that he feels his kids are getting fed which he needs to unteach.

crowny2 - 2012-06-06 4:38 PM

BTW, just so everyone is clear and if they haven't opened the link, this organization is staunchly Young Earth Creationism.  Meaning they believe the earth was created ~6000 years ago.

briderdt - 2012-06-06 3:43 PM

Okay, so here's an idea, not directed at any one person, just the idea of exclusion of religion from schools...

The idea is that "religion" refers to anything related to a church, or belief in God, Allah, or whatever the name used. But what of secular humanism? Is that not what people here are talking about with the whole "separation of church and state" ideal?

And the Supreme Court did indeed rule that secular humanism is, indeed, a religion...

So how is excluding the popular idea of "religion" from schools, while promoting the tenets of secular humanism (and not calling it that by name) not promoting one religion over another?