Fred D Mentor Group Part III (Page 4)
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2012-10-02 6:29 AM in reply to: #4435965 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III Fred D - 2012-10-01 9:02 PM I really feel that many triathletes use their swim workout as their 'easy' session. Agree completely; especially with many triathletes swimming in the 2-3x/week range, most need to work harder when they are in the pool. Pretty much every workout I write down has at least time spent swimming at T pace. Shane |
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2012-10-02 6:39 AM in reply to: #4436312 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by Fred D 2012-10-02 6:45 AM |
2012-10-02 6:40 AM in reply to: #4436300 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
2012-10-02 7:00 AM in reply to: #4433790 |
Master 1779 | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III Can you add me back into the group? I will post a bio later today. |
2012-10-02 7:01 AM in reply to: #4436052 |
Payson, AZ | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III Fred D - 2012-10-01 5:58 PM bzgl40 - 2012-10-01 8:17 PMI need to research the BarryP concept a bit to make sure it fits in with what I plan but I need some kind of structure and want to get my miles up so I have a feeling I'll end up down that road . In short it involves running frequency over long runs. Run 6 times a week with 3 short runs, 2 medium runs, and 1 long run. Medium runs are twice as long as short runs and long runs are 3 times as long as short runs. So in easy terms if you we're to start with a short run of 1 mile, the medium would be 2 and the long 3 miles. Usual pattern is short-medium-short-medium-short-long, but it can be mixed around.Hum, that would actually fit my schedule fairly well. It is kind of similar to the program I followed when training for the Portland marathon. |
2012-10-02 7:24 AM in reply to: #4436255 |
Veteran 337 | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III sicone - 2012-10-02 3:00 AM Winter Goals: Trying to decide whether to get straight back into the BarryP 1-2-3 running plan (but cut out one of the short runs) or working on a 10k program to improve my shorter distance times.
Stravos, what a great progression on your training and races. I am not sure if this is what you meant, but I don't believe that choosing between the "BarryP 1-2-3 running plan" or "working on a 10k program" to improve your shorter distance times are mutually exclusive. I think you can use the BarryP plan as a 10k program to improve your shorter distance times. Best wishes on your winter goals. |
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2012-10-02 7:45 AM in reply to: #4436315 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III Fred D - 2012-10-02 8:39 AM ETA:, Shane even when I had a coach last year I found this was the approach to the swim. We often did a 4,000 yd swim on Monday after a massive bike on Sat and run on Sunday. This was one of the reasons that coach didn't work well with my ultimate goal I suppose, i.e.; recovery was not a huge part of the plan and I was burned out for my 'A' race. I find that this is an approach that many coaches take; cycling and running are seen as the hard workouts and swimming is used as "recovery" even when it is a hard swim. For most athletes, I will have them doing three hard days and four easy days a week however, what the hard days look like will vary based on the athlete. For some, a hard day might be one hard workout and one easy work, another might be one hard workout and another might have two hard workouts. For all, the following day would be easy so it might just be a 40 minute easy run or hour ride or a swim with more technique work and/or swimming with longer rest. I've posted this in the main forums before, but in case anyone has missed it, this is a great look at how to structure training by Craig Taylor: http://provincialtriathloncentre.blogspot.ca/2009/04/micro-structur... Shane |
2012-10-02 7:50 AM in reply to: #4435968 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III Fred D - 2012-10-01 9:06 PM Who all is interested (or already is doing) the Barry P running program? I'm a huge fan of BarryP's plan, especially for uncoached athletes, as it is simple and effective. The biggest value is simply the consistency and the fact that it tends to force athletes to run at an easy pace since they know they will almost always be running the following day. For anyone who is interested, I have BarryP's 12 run training posts from ST put together in one word document; it's too large to post but if you send me an email, I send it along. Shane |
2012-10-02 7:59 AM in reply to: #4436312 |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III gsmacleod - 2012-10-02 7:29 AM Fred D - 2012-10-01 9:02 PM I really feel that many triathletes use their swim workout as their 'easy' session. Agree completely; especially with many triathletes swimming in the 2-3x/week range, most need to work harder when they are in the pool. Pretty much every workout I write down has at least time spent swimming at T pace. ShaneQuestion on swimming at T pace. What is it? I understood it to be basically your pace for a 1000yd/meter TT. But in my head, if I'm doing 100's on that pace, then I'm going too slowly, I "feel" like I should be pushing harder for the shorter sets. My last 1000 TT was done at a 1:37/100yd pace, and I'll try to swim 100's usually at a 1:35ish pace, maybe a touch faster (sometimes a touch slower) depending on the day. 200's-400's I don't want to be swimming any slower than a 1:40 pace. This is all completely made up in my head, so I'd love to get an idea how much of a swim workout (i.e 2500 yards total) should be at T pace, below T pace, and above T pace. And if someone can define how much above or below T pace one should go, that would be really helpful. Bio coming... |
2012-10-02 8:12 AM in reply to: #4436439 |
Champion 7595 Columbia, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III GoFaster - 2012-10-02 8:59 AM gsmacleod - 2012-10-02 7:29 AM Fred D - 2012-10-01 9:02 PM I really feel that many triathletes use their swim workout as their 'easy' session. Agree completely; especially with many triathletes swimming in the 2-3x/week range, most need to work harder when they are in the pool. Pretty much every workout I write down has at least time spent swimming at T pace. ShaneQuestion on swimming at T pace. What is it? I understood it to be basically your pace for a 1000yd/meter TT. But in my head, if I'm doing 100's on that pace, then I'm going too slowly, I "feel" like I should be pushing harder for the shorter sets. My last 1000 TT was done at a 1:37/100yd pace, and I'll try to swim 100's usually at a 1:35ish pace, maybe a touch faster (sometimes a touch slower) depending on the day. 200's-400's I don't want to be swimming any slower than a 1:40 pace. This is all completely made up in my head, so I'd love to get an idea how much of a swim workout (i.e 2500 yards total) should be at T pace, below T pace, and above T pace. And if someone can define how much above or below T pace one should go, that would be really helpful. Bio coming... Were you completely wasted at the end of the test? How much rest do you give yourself between 100s? |
2012-10-02 8:16 AM in reply to: #4436318 |
Master 1736 Midcoast Maine | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III Fred D - 2012-10-01 7:40 AM itsallrelative_Maine - 2012-10-02 7:19 AM Great feedback on the swim - I think the point of swimming a set in a particular time vs. a particular amount of rest is key for me. As for the BarryP program...I used it last year (starting in October) and enjoyed it with one caveat: (you all might notice a theme here) I ran too easy. I got up to 40 mph and the long run felt great with a quick recovery which I appreciate at my advanced age, but keeping with the "run easy" instructions, I was easily slower by a minute per mile on my pace. I kept waiting for the speed to come, so I could start with the intervals and LT work, but it never did. About a month before my last race, I started to throw in a little speed work here and there but had fallen off the BarryP wagon because of my foot injury. So - now I've got about a year of base mileage built up and I think for me, I need to start pushing the tempo on the easy runs a bit and start throwing in the speed work. October is going to be a bit of a loosey-goosey month (got some travel and a bunch of kids activities), fitting in as many 3 mile runs a week as I can with a few 6 milers if time permits...based on what my average mpw turns out to be for October, I'll start the BarryP program in Nov with the total mileage per week from the Oct weekly average. Two questions?? 1. How long did you go from starting the program until 40 miles a week? 2. At what point did the foot get hurt (before or after the intensity work)? It took me about 6 to 6.5 months to get from 20 mpw to 40 mpw using BarryP's program. The foot got hurt June 2011 (well before I started the plan). I let it heal up before starting Barry's plan and the foot was good from the start of the plan in October 2011 until mid to end of April 2012. Now I'm working with a PT to "fix" the foot for good (I'm not willing to do surgery). |
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2012-10-02 8:18 AM in reply to: #4436298 |
Champion 7595 Columbia, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III Fred D - 2012-10-02 7:18 AM blbriley - 2012-10-01 10:20 PM . I think the absolute key to the Barry P plan is patience. I actually like the very short runs. There are obviously other great running plans out there to do, so in no way is the Barry P the only way to go. My feeling is that it has some pluses for older (40+) triathletes who have a history of running injuries. I have a friend who was the second overall amateur at eagleman this year and I know he's used it extensively in the past, so it int just or slower people.Fred D - 2012-10-01 5:06 PM 1. Who all is interested (or already is doing) the Barry P running program? I used it last last winter to build a solid running base. I really liked the simplicity, but added mileage too quickly and ended up with an angry IT band. I guess I didn't have the discipline to "enjoy" the short runs and looked at them as more of a nuisance. I'm using Higdon's HM plan for my 12/2 race and may go to Barry P after. We'll see... I agree. I'd go further and say that the key to running for almost everybody is patience. As for the swimming intensity discussion -- very helpful, in a motivating way. I raced this past weekend and that race really cemented in my mind just how important improving on the swim is for me. I know that many people say "well it's a small part of the race; just get through it and hammer the bike and run and you can make up the deficit". For a couple of years, that strategy was working for me, but I've hit the limits of what *I* can achieve doing it. The guys I've got my eyes on, now, are just as fast as I am on the bike and run, but slaughter me in the swim. |
2012-10-02 8:19 AM in reply to: #4436455 |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III Experior - 2012-10-02 9:12 AM GoFaster - 2012-10-02 8:59 AM gsmacleod - 2012-10-02 7:29 AM Fred D - 2012-10-01 9:02 PM I really feel that many triathletes use their swim workout as their 'easy' session. Agree completely; especially with many triathletes swimming in the 2-3x/week range, most need to work harder when they are in the pool. Pretty much every workout I write down has at least time spent swimming at T pace. ShaneQuestion on swimming at T pace. What is it? I understood it to be basically your pace for a 1000yd/meter TT. But in my head, if I'm doing 100's on that pace, then I'm going too slowly, I "feel" like I should be pushing harder for the shorter sets. My last 1000 TT was done at a 1:37/100yd pace, and I'll try to swim 100's usually at a 1:35ish pace, maybe a touch faster (sometimes a touch slower) depending on the day. 200's-400's I don't want to be swimming any slower than a 1:40 pace. This is all completely made up in my head, so I'd love to get an idea how much of a swim workout (i.e 2500 yards total) should be at T pace, below T pace, and above T pace. And if someone can define how much above or below T pace one should go, that would be really helpful. Bio coming... Were you completely wasted at the end of the test? How much rest do you give yourself between 100s? Don't think there was too much left in the tank after the test. 100's are usually done on 10-15sec rest. |
2012-10-02 8:29 AM in reply to: #4436469 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III Experior - 2012-10-02 10:18 AM As for the swimming intensity discussion -- very helpful, in a motivating way. I raced this past weekend and that race really cemented in my mind just how important improving on the swim is for me. I know that many people say "well it's a small part of the race; just get through it and hammer the bike and run and you can make up the deficit". For a couple of years, that strategy was working for me, but I've hit the limits of what *I* can achieve doing it. The guys I've got my eyes on, now, are just as fast as I am on the bike and run, but slaughter me in the swim. Even if you don't see massive time gains, at least you can get out of the water feeling a lot better. I read a lot of race reports where people say they spend the first 5-10 mins on the bike getting their HR under control from the swim. I can red-line the swim in a sprint and an olympic and by the time I get on my bike I'm ready to ride. I (perhaps mistakenly) attribute that somewhat to swimming hard and having to recover quickly on a regular basis. |
2012-10-02 8:34 AM in reply to: #4436300 |
Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III itsallrelative_Maine - 2012-10-02 7:19 AM Jennifer, welcome to the group. You hit a home run with the knowledge of this group. I hope I can contribute to any of your questions. The BarryP program sounds like it suits you well. I think patience is everything in fitness. Your first year was just that. So now you can test some intensity. Intensity is great but with applied risks and you have to make sure you recovered well. There are a few here that push intensity all too well. I look forward to your progress.Great feedback on the swim - I think the point of swimming a set in a particular time vs. a particular amount of rest is key for me. As for the BarryP program...I used it last year (starting in October) and enjoyed it with one caveat: (you all might notice a theme here) I ran too easy. I got up to 40 mph and the long run felt great with a quick recovery which I appreciate at my advanced age, but keeping with the "run easy" instructions, I was easily slower by a minute per mile on my pace. I kept waiting for the speed to come, so I could start with the intervals and LT work, but it never did. About a month before my last race, I started to throw in a little speed work here and there but had fallen off the BarryP wagon because of my foot injury. So - now I've got about a year of base mileage built up and I think for me, I need to start pushing the tempo on the easy runs a bit and start throwing in the speed work. October is going to be a bit of a loosey-goosey month (got some travel and a bunch of kids activities), fitting in as many 3 mile runs a week as I can with a few 6 milers if time permits...based on what my average mpw turns out to be for October, I'll start the BarryP program in Nov with the total mileage per week from the Oct weekly average. |
2012-10-02 8:35 AM in reply to: #4433790 |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III NAME: GoFaster / Neil I didn't have a background in any of the sports, but have taken to running, while swimming seems to give me the most trouble. I'm generally solid MOP on the bike, although this year I moved to a Speed Concept and found some extra speed. I originally got into Tri's because I'd been lifting weights for a couple of years, but recognized that I wasn't really in shape, and I wanted a new challenge. FAMILY STATUS: Married, great wife, two crazy kids. 2012 RACES: Two Sprints, one Olympic, and one Half Ironman. 2013 RACES: Starting to think about this now. Would like to put Rev 3 Quassy 1/2 on the list for June, and then target Sprints and Olympics for the remainder of the season. Also looking at a Half Marathon in March (just need to fix the leg again). WEIGHTLOSS: I'm a lightweight. At just over 6' feet I was below 150lbs for much of the summer. I'm thinking about lifting some weights over the winter just to add on a bit of weight. I'm sure it will slow me down a touch. WHAT WILL MAKE ME A GOOD MENTEE: I've been lucky enough to be part of some great groups in the past (including some of Fred's), and have learned that groups are a tremendous opportunity to share your own views, have those views critiqued, and hopefully help others while in the process of learning from others. I also key off strong, motivated individuals - so a good group helps push me, and I want to contribute as much as possible. Oh, and I ask a lot of questions. |
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2012-10-02 8:40 AM in reply to: #4436472 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III GoFaster - 2012-10-02 10:19 AM Were you completely wasted at the end of the test? How much rest do you give yourself between 100s? Don't think there was too much left in the tank after the test. 100's are usually done on 10-15sec rest. Try doing the 100's on 1:40 and see what happens. As to time at threshold, I would say aim for at least 1000m and more likely 1500-2000m in the 2500-3000m workout. Shane |
2012-10-02 8:47 AM in reply to: #4433790 |
Master 1927 Guilford, CT | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III Wow, page 5. I must have blinked! More than anyone cares to know.... NAME: Jason Atwater 2009 - I taught myself to swim and trained for a sprint to lose some weight. I was turning 30 and at 5’ 9” had been weight around 225lbs. I did the sprint and then the next week I signed up for Timberman which was about 10 wks later. Lost close to 40lbs from that winter thru the summer. 2010 – I kept training and started ramping up my run load. Did Timberman again about 40min faster and broke 5hrs. Then I started to really get the bug. 2011 – Rev3 Quassy and IMLP. Had a good lead-up that spring but in May had some major personal stuff w/ work and being laid off that really put a damper on my mental focus. Ironman wasn’t perfect and was 10lbs more than I had planned (is anyone’s ever?). I was happy to do it with a great group of guys I train w/ though and vowed I’d return for vengeance (at that course or another). I ended up running a bunch and doing the Philly marathon that fall too and felt pretty good coming in around 3:21 (weighted around 180lbs for that). That was my first real try trying to run a marathon and still carrying a bit of extra weight being not super lean and too upper body heavy. 2012 – Kind of did what I felt like. I ended up throwing a bike race on my calendar but it got canceled. It did motivate me though and I am entering the winter with some higher than ever power numbers. FAMILY STATUS: Married. 2 small kids ages 4 and 16months. 2013 RACES: Probably Quassy HIM and another later summer HIM. I haven’t settled yet, but I know I want to do a couple of of HIMs and Quassy is local to me.
Goals: Enter spring training season 175lbs or less. Bike FTP 320-330. 13.1 < 1:29. I never owned a bike until 2009 season when I started and it’s a natural strength. I’d like to capitalize on it and get my run and racing weight to a more competitive point. I think if I do, I can be successful at the 70.3 distance. I’ve been very fortunate (knock on wood) that I don’t seem to ever get hurt and I can run and ride hard pretty often. Not sure if it’s from all the strength training I used to do or soccer back in the day or what. For that reason, I can be a little more aggressive with my run training than some.
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2012-10-02 8:56 AM in reply to: #4436312 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III gsmacleod - 2012-10-02 7:29 PM Fred D - 2012-10-01 9:02 PM I really feel that many triathletes use their swim workout as their 'easy' session. Agree completely; especially with many triathletes swimming in the 2-3x/week range, most need to work harder when they are in the pool. Pretty much every workout I write down has at least time spent swimming at T pace. ShaneReally good point, Shane. No, not every main set has to be ABC (annihilate, barf, cry) but the less swimming one is doing the more of it needs to maximized for effort. Swimming in triathlon is mentally misleading. It's easy to get into "it's the smallest percentage of a tri" mentality, but as others have pointed out, the benefits critically accrue to the bike and run, and another unfortunate truth is that long or short, one is going to have to put the kind of effort and attention to swimming that one does to cycling and running in order to improve as much as those disciplines. Swimming doesn't realize it's only X percent of a triathlon. To get better at it, you have to put in as much as you do to get better at anything. |
2012-10-02 9:07 AM in reply to: #4436304 |
Pro 6191 | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III itsallrelative_Maine - 2012-10-02 7:21 AM axteraa - 2012-10-01 7:15 AM Big day for my wife yesterday, she went back to work a half day in the morning. Her first time at work since she crashed on her bike on May 6th. She has also been on her bike on the trainer for a few minutes to see how her shoulder tolerates it and it has been fine. She has been back to running for a few weeks, up to a 3' run/1' walk. Very exciting to see her back on the road to full recovery! Yeah! The road to recovery! I hope she had a good first day and is still feeling strong. That is great news!! |
2012-10-02 9:09 AM in reply to: #4433790 |
Payson, AZ | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III I simply need to pay attention more when I am out running. I almost ran into a Javelina today. Not sure if it or I was more shocked. I've been staying of the trails cause the elk are in rut season right now but now the wild life is coming out on to my roads. I just can't win. I think the elk are finally starting to calm down now though. For those who don't know, I basically live in the middle of the Tonto National forest and the elk are all over the place here. Even walking down the street from time to time. |
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2012-10-02 9:14 AM in reply to: #4436491 |
Pro 6191 | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III axteraa - 2012-10-02 9:29 AM Experior - 2012-10-02 10:18 AM As for the swimming intensity discussion -- very helpful, in a motivating way. I raced this past weekend and that race really cemented in my mind just how important improving on the swim is for me. I know that many people say "well it's a small part of the race; just get through it and hammer the bike and run and you can make up the deficit". For a couple of years, that strategy was working for me, but I've hit the limits of what *I* can achieve doing it. The guys I've got my eyes on, now, are just as fast as I am on the bike and run, but slaughter me in the swim. Even if you don't see massive time gains, at least you can get out of the water feeling a lot better. I read a lot of race reports where people say they spend the first 5-10 mins on the bike getting their HR under control from the swim. I can red-line the swim in a sprint and an olympic and by the time I get on my bike I'm ready to ride. I (perhaps mistakenly) attribute that somewhat to swimming hard and having to recover quickly on a regular basis. This! I think it can be attributed to general comfort in the water. I know how to pace hard sets and still be ready for the next one - so I know how to swim and be ready to bike. I think a big part of it, too, is pacing. There's really no ability to monitor HR or pace effectively, so people without a swimming background don't have as much of a "feel" for it. If you took away all of the gadgets, a lot of people would struggle to pace the bike and run off of feel. In the swim, everyone is blind to everything but their own RPE. |
2012-10-02 9:50 AM in reply to: #4436417 |
Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III gsmacleod - 2012-10-02 8:45 AM Shane, welcome to the group. I am very happy you will be apart of it. I look forward to your input aI like your training philosophies very similar to my own. 3-4 hard training events followed by 3-4 ez. Course I sometimes stack them as well as with volume. I am kind of winding down my tri season and getting ready for a marathon. I often swim for recovery 500-1500ez. Then again I swim my hard workouts (3-4x week) with a variety of intensity, threshold and power building. Most of my swims for a half iron year are 2500-4000yds. My iron year swims are between 2500-6000yds just depends on what other training I am doing.Fred D - 2012-10-02 8:39 AMETA:, Shane even when I had a coach last year I found this was the approach to the swim. We often did a 4,000 yd swim on Monday after a massive bike on Sat and run on Sunday. This was one of the reasons that coach didn't work well with my ultimate goal I suppose, i.e.; recovery was not a huge part of the plan and I was burned out for my 'A' race. I find that this is an approach that many coaches take; cycling and running are seen as the hard workouts and swimming is used as "recovery" even when it is a hard swim. For most athletes, I will have them doing three hard days and four easy days a week however, what the hard days look like will vary based on the athlete. For some, a hard day might be one hard workout and one easy work, another might be one hard workout and another might have two hard workouts. For all, the following day would be easy so it might just be a 40 minute easy run or hour ride or a swim with more technique work and/or swimming with longer rest.I've posted this in the main forums before, but in case anyone has missed it, this is a great look at how to structure training by Craig Taylor:http://provincialtriathloncentre.blogspot.ca/2009/04/micro-structure-part-3.htmlShane |
2012-10-02 10:06 AM in reply to: #4436297 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
2012-10-02 10:34 AM in reply to: #4436588 |
Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III bzgl40 - 2012-10-02 10:09 AMI simply need to pay attention more when I am out running. I almost ran into a Javelina today. Not sure if it or I was more shocked. I've been staying of the trails cause the elk are in rut season right now but now the wild life is coming out on to my roads. I just can't win. I think the elk are finally starting to calm down now though. For those who don't know, I basically live in the middle of the Tonto National forest and the elk are all over the place here. Even walking down the street from time to time. Where there is elk there is puma. You should run with bells on. |
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