Educate me, Re: Transgender child in CO (Page 4)

If you're going to segregate the bathrooms by genitalia, then the doors/signs need to have pictures of genitalia, and should say "penises" and "vaginas" instead of "boys" and "girls" 

Otherwise, you let this girl go in the girls bathroom, just like all the other girls.

As far as being concerned about having the "wrong" genitalia in a bathroom:

Girl with a penis in a girls bathroom: she goes in a stall, and nobody knows the difference.

Boy with a vagina in a boys bathroom:  he goes in a stall, and nobody knows the difference.

Tell me again what the problem is?

I'm not sure I follow you.  The vast majority of people using restrooms are non-trans people so that would seem like the majority of people cause problems.  Not nit picking, just trying to understand your point.

In my personal experience I've worked at two different places that had somebody transitioning.  Both cases it was a man changing to a woman.  The bathroom was a huge issue in both cases.  The first one was in 1998 and the women on the floor were flat out hostile and threatened to call the police if that "guy" ever stepped foot in the bathroom.  It was pretty hostile for a while and they finally gave the new lady her own bathroom downstairs.

In the second case it was in 2005 and there was a similar uproar about the bathrooms, but not anywhere near as hostile.  It was mostly the women being uncomfortable with someone who was recently a male coworker using their restroom.  The solution was to put a sign on the door that she was told to flip to the "in use" side to let people know she was in there.

In both cases it couldn't have been a pleasant experience for the individual and most certainly wasn't inclusive.

Here is another article about the same family with some more input from the mother.

http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/transgender-girl-s-parents-sue-for-her-right-to-use-the-bathroom-201415013.html

You know, maybe this is not comparable but my kids are both adopted. When my son was a baby we were asked to give a T.V. interview and speak at a fundraising event to share our experience. We did and it was fine but I didn't really think at the time much about it. The next day I went into work and was stopped by teachers and students all over the building who saw the T.V. interview. As my children grow they have started to become more aware of how babies grow, and they are starting to recognize there is a difference from where they came from. My daughter asked me the other day who my birth mother was. She is trying to understand. At this point in their lives (age 4 & 6) the last thing I would want to do is go on television talking about how they are adopted and put even more emphasis on the subject. Maybe they don't want to go to school and have to explain to their friends why Mom was on T.V. talking about them. They don't need to be the poster children for adoption, they just need to be kids.

I don't know, I'm sure these parents know what is best for their little girl but I have a hard time believing all of this media attention is in the child's best interest. Regardless of if the school retracts their policy on what bathroom she can use, now everyone knows her business. How is this going to make her more comfortable at school?

This makes me think, I've used the men's restroom on more than one occassion in my life. You know, the line at the ladies room is always longer. Hope I didn't make any men uncomfortable!

Like the previous poster said, if the bathrooms are that big of a deal then we need to fix the way we design bathrooms. Easier said than done I know. I like the previous posters idea of every stall having a door and no gender specifics. Kind of like the family locker room at the Y I go to. 4 bathrooms each have a toilet, sink, shower and they open into one locker room area.

There are no "gender neutral" individuals.     A female who has had her vagina removed is still a female.   A female who has had her penis removed is still a female.

I meant that when, say, a trans woman uses the ladies' room, and there is some sort of problem as a result, it is not the trans person who causes the problem. Like in the story I linked to.. a trans woman in Baltimore was using the ladies' room and two other women decided to beat the crap out of her.

I'll never forget an episode of either 20/20 or something similar about transgender children.  The mother of one child told a story of her two or three year old boy (who identified as a girl) getting his hands on a pair of scissors.  Mom walked into the room just as her son was about to attempt to cut off his penis.  When she asked why he would do such a thing, the child said that it doesn't belong there, it's a mistake.

I find it really hard to believe that this child who later identified as a girl with support from her parents would be showing off said penis to anyone, let alone her peers in school.

If you want the world view you as the gender opposite of what is in your pants, the last thing you would probably want to do is show that part off.

If the students at the school had never know she is transgender, I would say let her use the girls bathroom; however, now that everyone knows that she is biologically a boy it's not really fair to let her use the girls room but not let any other boys use it as well.

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES! x infinity and beyond!

Yep.

I guess we've established that 6 year olds can be gender aware, at least I certainly buy into that from what I've read and heard.  But let's face it, there is ALOT that 6 year olds don't understand with regard to interractions with others. 

As wwlani stated, the "neutral" bathroom is certainly a valid solution.....and I applaud the school for taking that step.  But taking the ages of the kids into consideration, that's probably as far as they need to go....any further probably just confuses the kids even more.

Should she continue to identify as a girl, this child would almost certainly be starting hormone therapy when she begins puberty. To do anything else would be cruel to her.

Oh, and to the folks describing her as a boy or "a boy" or anything other than a girl... you're part of the problem. She's a girl.

I'm going through the same thing with my daughter.  She's 14 months old.  Adores pink, glitter, ruffly clothes, and baby dolls.  Not something she's learning from other kids (the kids her age in daycare are mostly boys) and didn't get it from me.  I'm embracing it as best as I can, but it was certainly a surprise to me.  Definitely opened my eyes a bit.

i don't think it's necessarily an education issue.  that implies that there's something that can be learned that will make everyone come to an agreement.  

in my mind it's a belief, or personal feelings, issue.  a person's beliefs and personal feelings always play a leading role in deciding what "best interest" are (and who's should take priority), and we all know that's why it's so hard to come to an agreement on stuff like this.  i think society has come a long way over the years when it comes to diversity and inclusiveness, but we still have a long way to go. 

i guess my stance is that the school is probably doing the best they can to accommodate the many different "best interests" of their students/parents/district/etc.  i think sometimes you can't make everyone happy and as long as you can provide some kind of middle ground than you're doing the best you can.

Well, I can't say I quite agree with that. "Middle ground" is tantamount to "separate but equal" in my mind. Separate yet equal facilities for the girl.

Back in the 50s and 60s, some made the argument that black people in the same schools, or restrooms as whites made them uncomfortable, or put whites at risk. The same argument is being made here by some who would prefer this girl and other trans people use separate facilities. And there is absolutely *zero* evidence that trans people using the appropriate restroom poses any sort of risk to anyone, other than the trans person.

"Separate but equal" was outlawed at least with respect to race in this country, and I suspect that someday, maybe not in my lifetime, but someday, it will be outlawed with respect to this issue as well.

I see the parallel and don't disagree with you on the ideal but I fear that it will never come to that.  African-Americans represented a fairly large percentage of the population when they broke through the wall.  I can't imagine trans individuals would ever represent that high of a percentage.

That's an argument I can understand, but it is still a legal one and it has to have clear legal definitions. At least with the color of you skin, that is definite... gender is a problem legally... at least till now which is the problem. Sex has always been genitals... and if that needs to change, so be it... it will take a bit of time... but it is not as easy as saying skin color. To some, Coy will always be a boy in a dress, because physically, Coy is a boy in a dress.

I'll admit it... I do not understand it. I just don't.... no more than I understand schizophrenia, or being pregnant. But legally, we are all equal, and under the law, it should not matter. That is the side I will always go with. However, while it might be hard to deny rights to an individual, it is easy for some to deny right to a choice. And that is what some feel it is.

The only real shame is that no matter what the school district decides... Coy will never be "equal"... she will always be "different", and that is a tough cross to bear as a kid.

One difference in your analogy is that there is no argument that someone of a different race is a different race.  On the other hand, this person is either a boy or a girl or a transgender?  Not so black an white in the view of many people.  (It may be black and white for you, but while I would respect her wish to be treated as a girl, I don't know necessarily agree that she is a girl).  This is the classic example of acceptance vs agreement.  Two similar words, but very different meanings.  Just because you accept something doesn't mean you have to agree with it.

What's "a transgender?"  Transgender is an adjective, not a noun. 

Anyway, sure, there are people who don't agree with it. But that doesn't necessarily matter. For example, I'm sure there are people I work with who don't agree with the choice that they perceive that I have made, or women who would prefer that I use a different restroom. Too bad for them. Whether or not someone agrees with it, I honestly don't know what that has to do with anything.

i think this is exactly right.  out of 100 people, you'll probably get 90 different solutions to this situation so no matter what you do, you're going to make the wrong decision in someone's mind.  unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you look at it, Noelle is right, this will never change unless the percentage of the population changes.  our society says that the majority wins.  that does't mean someone has to lose, but it does mean that equality will never truely happen. 

it's sad that some people feel so strongly for/against this issue that they would push a school to draw a line in the sand.  schools have way more important things to focus on, in my mind.