16 months, still suck! (Page 4)

Whew, long post warning ha  First some general info then I will respond to posts:

1.  Who knew a year and a half wouldn't be enough time to get good enough to finish an Ironman?  I paid for it last June.  Even a year should be enough time to go from a couple Sprints to an IM.

2.  I am definitely learning how to push myself, it's a work in progress.  It is so different to have been a swimmer, or runner, or even a kickball player or tennis and then go to tris.  I literally never lifted a finger from birth until 7/3/09.  Then from 7/3/09 until 1/2/12 it was Zumba, TurboKick, and Spin, mostly, which burn calories but don't really make you fit.  I am going through growing athlete pains.  Do I push myself hard enough?  Most likely not.  It's not something I can fix overnight, though, and I am getting better at it.

3.  We do zone tests periodically but #2 kind of hinders it.  Look at the last HIM, I spent the whole ride on Zone 5, even hitting z6, so obviously zones are still not accurate.  And at z5 the whole time, I still averaged 13.4 mph.

4.  Main fear is pushing too hard and not being able to finsih.

5.  I have no idea why I'm so slow in all three.  On the bike I have nothing physically that would impede me from going faster (other than excess skin that doesn't allow me to go aero because I physically can't bend like that).  I pedal pedal pedal and I average 12-13.9 MPH.  I averaged 16 mph over 15 miles of flat once and 14.9 once on the hilly terrain I do all the time on 12-13.9.  Once, though.  For 30 miles.  I have never gone faster than that.  I would LIKE to, but it just seems I can't pedal stronger and/or faster.

6.  Just as an aside, I know what I do wrong in swimming.  I miss the catch, I lead with my elbow instead of my hand, and my hand is too wide in relation to my body.  What I don't know, however, is how NOT to do that and how to do it right.

7.  Yeah, I want to finish.  But if I don't, I'll live.  I'm doing IMAZ next year, already decided on it, and in 2015 planning 2, one internationally.  It is and it isn't an end goal.  More like a checkpoint, since I plan to engage in endurance events for a while.  I have become hooked on racing and endurance events.

8.  I am definitely a distance vs. speed person, I can be trained I think to pretty long distances, even 100-200 mile runs, for instance.  Some people in my tri club have nicknamed me the Energizer Bunny.

Ok now on to posts   I'll go in order.

I've used 3 different cassettes, by the way, and my cadence has always been low.  I just can't spin that fast.

A lot of bike workouts are long because I'm slow, not particularly because the distances are long.

As far as recovery I have one full day off a week.

My strength training includes a lot of balance and core work built in.

I couldn't do a half when I started (or heck, even an Olympic, and a Sprint took me almost three hours (yes, almost three hours, like 2:40 off the top of my head).  But I'm the kind of person that doesn't look back, just forward, and it may be a personality flaw but I'm always focusing on what I can't do (and doing what I can to BE able to do it) rather than what I can do in relation to endurance becuase what I can do is already history and boring   Challenges are exciting.

Good point on shorter distances, last 5K I actually placed 10th in my age group (February of last year, one month into my training).  But since I'm training for the IM my coach wants me to focus on that.  And I'd rather train for longer even if I place further down.

First priority is meet the cutoffs, then to get faster each time.

I'm steady around 120 lbs now (5'4").

"I'm not sure how your conversation with your coach went.  If it was something like, "I'm worried that my training and previous race times are not in line with me being able to finish IM CdA -- should we make some changes?", maybe the response was fine. "

That was pretty much it verbatim.

And I don't remember the airport during my HIM so looking at wind at the airport is a little misleading   I posted the link to Boulder City, where the triathlon took place.

I have a road bike, professional fit, bought last month.

And I don't know how much of this played a part but I worked 56 hours at work two weeks before the event and the week before, and I work nights (hence my posting habits) and I worked the Thursday before, having just the Friday before off (off Fridays and Saturdays).  For IMCDA I took off from Friday morning of the week before to the Sunday of the week after, two full weeks + one more weekend.  Not going to do this for every IM, but yes for the first.

Here are my current bike zones:
1:  98-118
2:  119-133
3:  134-139
4:  140-148
5:  149-163

First HIM I had an average of 155 and second HIM 152.

Here are my current run zones:
1:  100-128
2:  129-137
3:  138-144
4:  145-150
5:  151-167

First HIM was an average of 148 and second HIM 146.

My resting heart rate is in the 40s, and I saw it at 39 once.

I think that covers everything so far whew. 

I'm kind of curious about this, because up above you mentioned you had done spin class before you started on triathlons.  Were you able to turn the pedals over faster in spin class?  If that's the case, your low cadence on the bike outside might be caused by a fit issue.  Food for thought.

*edit: actually looking back at some of your logs, many of your rides have a cadence in the mid-to-high 80s.  That's pretty normal.

I saw one with a 51, but that was probably averaging in zeros on a ride where you stopped somewhere.

Deb,

This is most likely a big part of why you're not seeing more improvement.  Training by HR can only be effective if your zones are relatively accurate.  It's like the old computer acronym GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out.  Yours are obviously way off, because by definition, it's impossible to average a HIM ride in zone 5 and follow it with a HIM run in zone 4 for the duration you run.

As a result, your training is all at a very low intensity relative to what you're capable of, and you're not applying enough stress to your body to result in the necessary adaptations.  The result is lackluster improvements.

Your coach should have caught this discrepency, and retested until the test results were relatively consistent with your race data.  If you have trouble pushing hard enough, learning to do so needs to be a part of your training.  IME, this is a relatively common issue for AG athletes who were never high school, college, or otherwise competitive athletes in the past.  With local athletes I've gone as far as run their running LT test with them on a local track, pushing them the whole time to ensure we get good test data.  With an internet athlete with your data, I'd consider estimating zones based on race performance if we couldn't get good test data, because it would be more accurate than what you're currently using.

Assuming all the data you've posted is accurate, my suggestion is to talk to your coach about the HR discrepency, and decide based on her response whether you need a new coach or not.  Assuming your HR data is accurate for your HIM's, if she doesn't recognize that your zones are completely off and give you a good explanation why she's ok with it, you should fire her immediately after IMCDA.

Oh, we've known about it for months   The only thing we can do is keep retesting periodically as I become better and better in pushing myself.

Thanks berndog!  Next HIM is Worlds Championship 70.3, I got a raffle entry!

So after five pages this turns out to be a "We know exactly what the problem is, aren't doing enough to address it, but instead I'll post a rant on BT about how I suck" thread?

If you cannot test properly then you shouldn't be using HR to train.  If your coach cannot make that adjustment then well, not much of coach.  Leave the HR monitor off and train by feel.  Not even a point in testing until you learn to push yourself.  Lots of folks successfully train without ever knowing what their HR ever was.

Here are my current bike zones:
1:  98-118
2:  119-133
3:  134-139
4:  140-148
5:  149-163

First HIM I had an average of 155 and second HIM 152.

Here are my current run zones:
1:  100-128
2:  129-137
3:  138-144
4:  145-150
5:  151-167

First HIM was an average of 148 and second HIM 146.

My resting heart rate is in the 40s, and I saw it at 39 once.

I agree with what was shared by Don, Shane and others that your zones are set wrong. Use the data from the race and tweak the zones now. Your testing isn't proving to be accurate as evidence from your race numbers.

You did not do a HIM in zone 4 and 5.  It may have been some where in zone 3 but may have been upper zone 2.

Look at your bike your zones are 1-2 off...so your zone 4 is really more like zone 2 or low zone 3. Run same thing plus most folks if they test well their run zones are about 10 bpm higher than on the bike.

If you train lots and lots of hours in zone 1 you will not get faster. I know this as I had a coach in the past that used wrong HR and power numbers and would not change them so I did lots of slow/low HR riding. I got worse over the year. I did discuss it with him, but he was not one that liked to be challenged.  I left after a year and was mad with myself I didn't trust the bells going off in my head.

Ask your coach how your zones can be correct given your race heart rate numbers?

We all want you to succeed.  You asked for a reason why you haven't gotten faster and this is one big reason.

I've been following this thread and can hardly believe some improvement, by default alone, wouldn't be gained.  Coach or no coach...zone 1 or zone 5.  But as I read more, are you sure you don't have another issue?  You mention in one of your race reports that you have/had dizzy spells.  I haven't digested every word here or all your reports, but as you can see from everyone's advice, this is not the norm.  Its not my intent to put a scare into you or anyone else, but a few years ago a friend of mine became a little dizzy on the golf course while walking up a slight incline. Then again in the car on the way home.  Four weeks later he was having heart surgery.  The good news is he's back to thriving in his own little sports world, running, playing basketball, etc.  Have you at least had a simple VO2 max test done?  You can do an elementary one with just a treadmill and a HR monitor in less than 10 minutes.  Of course, there's more accurate tests to be followed up with.  Just a thought...hope you find some answers.

In your first post you ask for reassurance that what you're doing will eventually pay off. The answer seems to be clear that it will not. Knowing that your training is ineffective but continuing that course is, as has already been pointed out, a widely used definition of insanity.

Thank you Don, you put so eloquently what I was trying to say yesterday based on what I saw in her logs.  Her race data just confirms is.  She is just training in Zone1 all the time, and thus not seeing any improvement.  It's amazing to me that her coach see's this ("We've known about this for months") but hasn't done anything about it.

You don't need to do another test.  You have data from your race that you can use to set up your zones right now.

That doesn't really change the effectiveness of methods for making improvements.

I am going to suggest something totally unscientific and the coaches/people who have studied this might bash me.  But I feel this is a last ditch sort of situation.  Considering you need to be working more towards 15 mph on the bike simply to meet the cutoffs, and the goal is to meet the cutoffs, why not make sure you bike at 15 mph or better in all training?   I don't really see that you have anything to lose because I don't think it's possible for you to meet the cutoffs using the current plan.

That said, if you're going to retest your bike HR zones, please consider this:  Do your bike test on the trainer so you didn't have any outside distractions.  I think this really helps a LOT!  It's hard when you have to worry about turning, stopping, or any other sort of thinking.  Your sole purpose for the bike test is to work as hard as you can for the sustained period and it's VERY hard to push yourself that hard.  It takes a special focus to do this.  It's much easier to take out other factors.   Borrow a trainer if you don't have one. 

I think you've done a great job focusing on your goals and plugging away.  I can see why your friends call you the Energizer Bunny.  I am only making suggestions, opposed to just saying "I hear your rant, sorry dude." because of my worry about you making the cutoffs.   I think you have a lot of options outside of the IM and I hope you do have some fun and do shorter races.  But as long as the IM is your goal, you'll have to make some changes.

Good luck!