Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread (Page 42)
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![]() Welcome Back, Rick. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Hi WittyCity,GPS is right, if your plan seems solid to you, just keep to your path and keep working on it.My longest distances right now are 2.5 hours on the trainer, 1.5 hour run, 1.5 mile swim.I also agree with Dream Chaser about not doing short, cut-up swim intervals. I just do long steady distance and I love his plan of doing the 2.4 milesOnce a week from March on. That is an awesome idea. In May I'll start doing them in open water. It will make the start and swim a lot less nerve-wracking if its something I've already done many times.Thanks for the idea, DC!Kelly |
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Cycling Guru ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Long steady swims are not the way to get faster and stronger at swimming. Breaking it up into shorter and faster sets with proper form is the correct approach. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Hey Rick, that's really interesting. I have no swim background at all so I admit being clueless about it. I will have to find out more about that, thanks for the info.I'm not actually trying to get much faster in the swim, I just want to complete it comfortably and move on to the bike/run. Right now my swim pace is about 27 min per mile at a steady pace and I'm happy with that. If I get faster that's ok but I really need to work on my cycling. I want the swim to be kind of a no-brainer, comfortable thing to set me up for the rest of the day.I will look into the interval thing though because like I said, I know almost nothing about swim training! Thank you.Kelly |
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![]() Rick also doesn't believe in Running off the Bike. Just an FYI. Short, hard Swim intervals are good and fine, but I don't believe they are going to help me stave off fatigue when I'm 1.9 miles into my swim with a half mile still to go. If I've done Long Continuous Sets in Training and thus repeatedlly mimicked the fatigue I will feel 3,000 meters into the Swim, I feel my body will be better prepared and less fatigued come Race Day. |
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Cycling Guru ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I never said long steady swims are not important. Just like long bike rides are, it is necessary to have longer continuous efforts. But that is NOT the way to train all the time. In fact, it creates bad habits and reinforces muscle memory for slower speeds and potentially poor stroke. If you include one longish swim each week then you are fine. The majority of your work should be faster/shorter sets. Still put in the 2500 - 3500 per workout, just not all at once. And what are you trying to do DC, get me banned right away (which is what will happen if I make my typical response)?? ![]() |
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Cycling Guru ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Dream Chaser - 2010-02-02 10:14 AM If I've done Long Continuous Sets in Training and thus repeatedlly mimicked the fatigue I will feel 3,000 meters into the Swim, I feel my body will be better prepared and less fatigued come Race Day. You may feel that way, but you will still be wrong. |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Daremo - 2010-02-02 9:32 AM Looky looky! I'm back! So far? 12 mile run. 1300 yard swim session. No bike. I'm giving myself until the end of the month to get my heart condition under control and if that doesn't happen then I will be dropping out of LP. Even if I don't and still get to race? It is going to be a race to experience an IM again and simply finish. I will be in NO shape to race and put up a decent time. And forget about a bike beer challenge ....... I'm totally out of that. What is the bike beer challenge? |
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![]() Daremo - 2010-02-02 10:36 AM I never said long steady swims are not important. Just like long bike rides are, it is necessary to have longer continuous efforts. But that is NOT the way to train all the time. In fact, it creates bad habits and reinforces muscle memory for slower speeds and potentially poor stroke. If you include one longish swim each week then you are fine. The majority of your work should be faster/shorter sets. Still put in the 2500 - 3500 per workout, just not all at once. And what are you trying to do DC, get me banned right away (which is what will happen if I make my typical response)?? ![]() The last thing I want is you or anyone banned. I'm all about Love. JohnnyKay said the same thing to me about the Swim as you. So I'll probably move toward a happy medium of your advice and what I think will work best for me. For now, I'm going to swim Long Aerobic 2 X per week, Tempo 1 X per week. Once I feel really comfortable swimming 4,000 meters, then maybe I'll switch to 2 Tempo, 1 long Aerobic per week.
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![]() Daremo - 2010-02-02 10:39 AM Dream Chaser - 2010-02-02 10:14 AM If I've done Long Continuous Sets in Training and thus repeatedlly mimicked the fatigue I will feel 3,000 meters into the Swim, I feel my body will be better prepared and less fatigued come Race Day. You may feel that way, but you will still be wrong. I've read about a lot of successful pro's and AG'ers 'shortening the course' by Biking 120, 140 and even 160 miles. I'm going to try this approach with the Swim. I have a HIM in May to see if it's been working. My best HIM is 35 minutes. If I can beat that time, I will have proven my method right, for me.
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Cycling Guru ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Oh, I'm all for over-distancing the swim and bike. Nothing wrong with that! I just go back to the approach of doing all long, all the time. That is what is not correct. |
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Cycling Guru ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Mcluvin22 - 2010-02-02 10:48 AM What is the bike beer challenge? Smack talk about who will put up the best bike split (irregardless of other times). Normally I'm a strong candidate for that. But not with my heart issues and literally zero training on the bike in the last two months. Not too mention I sold my tri bike and disc wheel set so I'm back to just a plain old (14.1 pound) road bike. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I wouldn't ban you just for being honest and blunt. Keep it coming, I like to learn.I hope your heart issues get better. I've had heart problems in the past and they sucked. I hope yours are resolved soon and you can train and fully take part in the race. And I do expect you to pass me on the bike.Kelly |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() My longest bike so far has been 3 hours (and 3.5 this weekend if I'm around). But that's my biggest limiter, so I'm just trying to get as much time in the saddle as possible. Swim, my longest workouts have been about an hour. Run, just under 2 hours, 13 miles, but I'm also training for the NYC Half Marathon and a Ragnar Relay Ultra in May, so I'm actually following a separate plan on the run anyway. And of course, now I'm randomly suffering from shoulder pain on my right side, so swimming is out this week. I think the thing that's keeping me from stressing out too much about distances/time spent on each sport is that we do have 6 months to get there. This is the BEGINNING of IM training, not the middle or the end. Right now, I feel like minor setbacks (shoulder pain, a cold) or seeing that others are doing a little more than me right now are not things I should be worrying about. If you find in three months that your training is super far below what you think it should be, then I'd start freaking out. But for now, I'm just keeping my head down and sticking to the plan. I think IM training should force you to face down the voice of doubt in your head and trust in the process. At least that's what I'm trying to do. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Ok, so if there is anyone reading this freaking out that they are doing less than everyone else, don't worry about it. I'm doing far less than what everyone of you has posted and I'm not worried AT ALL. I am exactly where I was last year and I had a great day. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Add me to the list of those advocating swimming sets and intervals 80+% of your training vs. straight, long swims. You can also include the BEST swimmers on BT like TJ, Bob Stocks, Mike G. in this group of advocates. Doing long straight swim sets will do nothing but ensire you swim long and slow. You want to improve, you want o get faster for the same effort. Sets and intervals are the way to do it. |
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![]() bryancd - 2010-02-02 1:10 PM Add me to the list of those advocating swimming sets and intervals 80+% of your training vs. straight, long swims. You can also include the BEST swimmers on BT like TJ, Bob Stocks, Mike G. in this group of advocates. Doing long straight swim sets will do nothing but ensire you swim long and slow. You want to improve, you want o get faster for the same effort. Sets and intervals are the way to do it. Let me preface that I've only been swimming for 2 years. To me, doing short sets to prepare for a 2.4 mile swim is like doing 80% track work and 20% Long Runs to prepare for a Marathon. And to take the analogy further, swimming is non-impact compared to running, which is very abrasive and harsh and requires 10X the Recovery time; given this fact, why would you not Train the Race Distance repeatedly, and over-train it? |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Dream Chaser - 2010-02-02 3:21 PM I train the race distance, I just do it in sets. So today I did a 500 warm up, a bunch of 50s on 5 seconds rest, a bunch of 200s on 10 seconds rest. I'm just building back up, but most of the swimming I do is faster than race pace, but done with short rest. I truly believe that if you just go knock out long sets the majority of the time, you teach yourself to swim slow. But if you start busting out some stuff that is much harder effort, with a small rest interval, while still having your total swim yardage race pace or longer for that day, my guess is you will see improvement in your swimming.bryancd - 2010-02-02 1:10 PM Add me to the list of those advocating swimming sets and intervals 80+% of your training vs. straight, long swims. You can also include the BEST swimmers on BT like TJ, Bob Stocks, Mike G. in this group of advocates. Doing long straight swim sets will do nothing but ensire you swim long and slow. You want to improve, you want o get faster for the same effort. Sets and intervals are the way to do it. Let me preface that I've only been swimming for 2 years. To me, doing short sets to prepare for a 2.4 mile swim is like doing 80% track work and 20% Long Runs to prepare for a Marathon. And to take the analogy further, swimming is non-impact compared to running, which is very abrasive and harsh and requires 10X the Recovery time; given this fact, why would you not Train the Race Distance repeatedly, and over-train it? |
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![]() So why not keep extending the sets to 1,000m, 1500m, 2000 Tempo ETC? My Plan and others have you swimming 50m Sets a month out from the Race. That just makes no sense to me. I'm not trying to debate just for the sake of debate or to be a jerk, I just don't get it. I'm an idiot when it comes to swimming, what can I say. And I can't help but think if all the top swimmers Bryan mentioned, and including himself, if they trained longer sets and did multiple over-distance workouts, they would be that much faster in the water; perhaps beating some pro's even. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Current max distances: Swim - 3000 yds (max was a 500 in that set) Bike - 2 hr group ride Run - 14 miler with last 15 min Tempo Add me to the short and sweet swim club. Untill the couple of weeks before the race, I will not do (and didn't in the past) the race distance straight. With swimming it's all about form. You build aerobic endurance and focus on form in shorter sets and build upon that. Last year I believe the longest swim set I had (outside of the race distance straight swims) was about 3500 yds. Lots of 300's, 500's, etc. I'm only 4 seasons removed from a rock, but it's worked for me. Short is sweet with the swim. For me: I'm focusing on consistancy and getting my intensity up with short hard sets on the bike. Get that VO2 high so that I can easily build the endurace (read: Tempo) right behind it. The runs are just now starting to be focused and speed dependant. Before it was go out and run how I felt. If I felt good, I went with it. Focus on form and the little things right now. Core work, plyometrics, drills, diet (YES JENN...my diet), logging and analyzing information. These are the things I am working on right now. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() DC, I hear what you are saying, and on the surface what you say makes more sense than what others are saying. However, this is one of those things where you look at what the best do and simply copy them, and ask questions later. Want to swim fast? do what fast swimmers do. The main problem with long sets, *I think*, is form eventually breaks down (you dont even realize it) and you are practicing poor form. Since swimming is 70-80% technique, you will likely gain little speed, even though you swam 1000s of yards. |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I agree with the sets thing too. I swim with a masters group and have done for years. When I decided to do an IM, I knew that I could tick the swim off from day 1 of training as I knew I could do the distance without getting fatigued. And I can tell you we never do that kind of distance as a continous set in masters. Longest is usually about 1000 for w/u and even that is broken up into different things. Generally for triathlon I think you should combine both. The overall distance you cover in sets is likely to be similar to a continuous swim so you are getting duration but you are also teaching your muscles to fire a bit more quickly (speed) and to push a bit harder (strength) which over time will translate into faster & stronger with less fatigue over longer distances. Sets also should include drills to improve technique as an inefficient technique will have you tiring a lot faster than you should. If you don't think your swim program is giving you the endurance you need then instead of switching over to continuous swims then I would add more sets/variety so you are in the pool swimming for a longer time. You don't have to do just 50s (although they are good for drills - personally I love the 25drill/25swim thinking of what you were focusing on the drill) but sets up to 400s or more give much more variety. As race day approaches I also add in lake swims (can't do that in winter up here!) which takes care of some longer distance training but even in a lake I will change it up a bit sometimes (we have a buoy line so I change pace between buoys etc), and being race specific I think nearer the race it is OK to do more longer distance swims too. |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() current distances in training swim - 3500y plus (depends on focus, I swim with masters group) bike - 2hrs (goes up tomorrow to 2.5 - all on trainer indoors unfortunately) run - my long run is 1.5hrs at moment and has been kept there for a few weeks now |
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![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I did 3000 yards last night. Started with 16x75 @ mid T2 (with 50 swim and 25 drills -- alternate catch up, finger drag, fist swim, etc) Then 3 sets of 300s @ mid T2 then 3 sets of 300s (200 easy and 100 fast) |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() greyguy - 2010-02-02 5:25 PM I did 3000 yards last night. Started with 16x75 @ mid T2 (with 50 swim and 25 drills -- alternate catch up, finger drag, fist swim, etc) Then 3 sets of 300s @ mid T2 then 3 sets of 300s (200 easy and 100 fast) Nice workout! I would give you a gold star but all I have is a smiley face. ![]() |
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