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2012-10-26 8:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
TSimone - 2012-10-26 9:54 AM

Still on the marathon recovery train coupled with a brutal week at work.  Looking forward to a quiet weekend and getting back on the horse next week.

As for running and intensity, I fall in a similar routine where I probably don't run "hard" often enough.  But for me it's a balance between performance and recovery, as it is with many folks.  I'm just going to trust the BarryP plan and see where it takes me.

Hope you all have a great weekend and hope Sandy cools her jets...

I think that is what is most important.  When you are doing a "hard" workout ask yourself if I do this am I going to be able to nail my workout tomorrow, 2 days from now, a week from now.  The work has to be repeatable so if speedwork fries you for 3 days then you are not really gaining any fitness.



2012-10-26 9:00 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

So, I think my road bike frame has a crack in the right seat stay.  I found it when cleaning the bike after my ride last weekend.  It's a 5 year old Trek Aluminum frame.  I'm planning on taking it to the bike shop next week for their opinion, but it sure doesn't look like it's just paint to me.

Anyone have any experience with warranty issues on frames?

2012-10-26 9:02 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
GoFaster - 2012-10-26 7:55 AM
marcag - 2012-10-26 9:43 AM

acumenjay - 2012-10-26 5:50 AMThose dark early runs aren't so bad when you have people keeping you company.

Did mine this morning. There was friggin ICE :-(

You should have been in Ontario - wore shorts + long sleeve shirt this morning and was hot after 2km.  Wink

I have a couple of cm of snow...and it's still snowing
2012-10-26 9:10 AM
in reply to: #4470317

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
mndymond - 2012-10-26 9:02 AM
GoFaster - 2012-10-26 7:55 AM
marcag - 2012-10-26 9:43 AM

acumenjay - 2012-10-26 5:50 AMThose dark early runs aren't so bad when you have people keeping you company.

Did mine this morning. There was friggin ICE :-(

You should have been in Ontario - wore shorts + long sleeve shirt this morning and was hot after 2km.  Wink

I have a couple of cm of snow...and it's still snowing

A little snow is pure pleasure to run on.

It's soft, fluffy and wonderful. My knees and ankles love snow.

ICE is evil ! ICE under snow is the absolute worst.

 

 

2012-10-26 9:26 AM
in reply to: #4470333

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
marcag - 2012-10-26 7:10 AM

A little snow is pure pleasure to run on.

It's soft, fluffy and wonderful. My knees and ankles love snow.

ICE is evil ! ICE under snow is the absolute worst.

Agree.  I love running in snow.  Ice not so much.  Ice is about the only thing that keeps me from getting a run in. 

2012-10-26 9:46 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
axteraa - 2012-10-26 5:06 AM
Experior - 2012-10-25 9:07 PM
axteraa - 2012-10-25 1:39 PM

Did a 5k run test at the track today over lunch - 21:47.  That's 56 seconds slower than my best 5k race time (which my Garmin measured at 4.85km so maybe not too far off).  I paced it pretty evenly throughout which is something I've never done before - I usually go out way too hard.  

Pretty happy with the result.  Now I just have to get faster!  

Well done!  FWIW, I've found that I experience the greatest variability in pace at the 5K and 10K distances.  For me, freshness and other aspects of preparation matter a whole lot more than they do for longer distances (as long as I'm rested enough not to explode before the end).

Do you mean your results at the 5K and 10K distance vary the most?  Meaning if you are slightly off on a particular day it will have a more significant effect at that distance vs a longer race?  I hardly ever do run only races so my sample size is too small to have much to compare to.

Yes.  An off day affects my top end speed a lot more than it affects my ability to hold a lower speed for a longer distance.  That could be just me.



2012-10-26 1:17 PM
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2012-10-26 1:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
Hey fishies

Remember my video a few weeks back? Well, I have been working on some of the suggestions and I did this little comparison video.

Please be as critical as you can because when I grow up I wanna be just like Arend

http://youtu.be/qfujbQ5iQOc
2012-10-26 2:02 PM
in reply to: #4470798

Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

My idea of harder runs is much less "hard" then others have suggested.  Maybe that's something I need to change.

Most of my running is done at marathon pace or slower.  Rarely do I ever run faster than half marathon pace.

2012-10-26 2:02 PM
in reply to: #4470865

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

marcag - 2012-10-26 2:57 PM Please be as critical as you can because when I grow up I wanna be just like Arend


On the arms higher/lower, is lower necessarily better?  On the video I posted of me a while back, one suggestion was to straighten/extend my arms out above water  to have my entry further out from my head.  Previously, I was entering in the water and then extending my arms.  I guess straight/bent really doesn't matter above water (?), but did you feel like your entry was closer to your head with the lower arms?  It sort of looked like that in the video.

 

 

 



Edited by Goosedog 2012-10-26 2:04 PM
2012-10-26 2:25 PM
in reply to: #4470311

Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
rymac - 2012-10-26 6:58 AM
TSimone - 2012-10-26 9:54 AM

Still on the marathon recovery train coupled with a brutal week at work.  Looking forward to a quiet weekend and getting back on the horse next week.

As for running and intensity, I fall in a similar routine where I probably don't run "hard" often enough.  But for me it's a balance between performance and recovery, as it is with many folks.  I'm just going to trust the BarryP plan and see where it takes me.

Hope you all have a great weekend and hope Sandy cools her jets...

I think that is what is most important.  When you are doing a "hard" workout ask yourself if I do this am I going to be able to nail my workout tomorrow, 2 days from now, a week from now.  The work has to be repeatable so if speedwork fries you for 3 days then you are not really gaining any fitness.

This is where I am.  I worked with a coach in 09 for a while, and she had me running some faster intervals, and it actually opened my eyes as to what I could do.

I am running more and faster now, but trying to build up some historical endurance, so my focus is running at a speed that I can run again tomorrow.  I think, for me alone, being able to run 6X a week is better than running hard intervals at the moment.

That said, I am still running faster than I should I think (not "fast," but fast for me). 



2012-10-26 2:25 PM
in reply to: #4470865

Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

marcag - 2012-10-26 11:57 AM Hey fishies

Remember my video a few weeks back? Well, I have been working on some of the suggestions and I did this little comparison video.

Please be as critical as you can because when I grow up I wanna be just like Arend

http://youtu.be/qfujbQ5iQOc[/QUOTE]

I don't really have much to say (sorry) but that's a real nice looking stroke.

2012-10-26 3:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

marcag - 2012-10-26 2:57 PM Hey fishies

Remember my video a few weeks back? Well, I have been working on some of the suggestions and I did this little comparison video.

Please be as critical as you can because when I grow up I wanna be just like Arend

http://youtu.be/qfujbQ5iQOc

Can't offer any criticsm (except your scrolling screens should have faded in for a better effect).

Why did you drop the bilateral breathing in the second video?



Edited by GoFaster 2012-10-26 3:37 PM
2012-10-26 3:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

marcag - 2012-10-26 11:57 AM Hey fishies

Remember my video a few weeks back? Well, I have been working on some of the suggestions and I did this little comparison video.

Please be as critical as you can because when I grow up I wanna be just like Arend

http://youtu.be/qfujbQ5iQOc

Marc, nice stroke and thanks for posting the video.  What I noticed is your hands.  Watch your hands after they enter the water.  Specifically your left hand as it enters at 39 seconds into the video.  Your wrist tends to collapse down and you are presenting the palm of your hand in the direction you want to swim.  That's creating unwanted drag.  I only notice this because my coach gets on me about it. :-)   



Edited by blbriley 2012-10-26 3:58 PM
2012-10-26 4:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
Goosedog - 2012-10-26 2:02 PM

marcag - 2012-10-26 2:57 PM Please be as critical as you can because when I grow up I wanna be just like Arend


On the arms higher/lower, is lower necessarily better?  On the video I posted of me a while back, one suggestion was to straighten/extend my arms out above water  to have my entry further out from my head.  Previously, I was entering in the water and then extending my arms.  I guess straight/bent really doesn't matter above water (?), but did you feel like your entry was closer to your head with the lower arms?  It sort of looked like that in the video.

 

I have been trying to do the equivalent of a finger drag along my body rather than swinging my arm around either high or even at the surface of the water. The reason is when I swing it, I end up crossing over in the front due to the momentum of my arm as it swings around. I was swinging quite high so my hand was way up in the air.

I try to do a finger drag, it feels like one, but there is still lots of room for improvement

When finger dragging, elbow should go up and hand down naturally. At least I think it should. I am not sure if my hand is entering sooner. I have to check that out

2012-10-26 4:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
ChrisM - 2012-10-26 2:25 PM

I don't really have much to say (sorry) but that's a real nice looking stroke.

 

thanks. I just need to translate it all into speed :-)



2012-10-26 4:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

GoFaster - 2012-10-26 3:37 PM

Why did you drop the bilateral breathing in the second video?

On hard sets I was lacking oxygen and ended up slowing down a lot.

Someone explained to me that the ability to breath both sides is important since the course/conditions may force it on us. But there is also a need for maximum oxygen, which for me is so true.

So I do breath on both sides during a workout. I warm up breathing bilateral every 3 strokes, but do my main set breathing every 2, but alternating sides from rep to rep.

2012-10-26 4:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
blbriley - 2012-10-26 3:57 PM

Marc, nice stroke and thanks for posting the video.  What I noticed is your hands.  Watch your hands after they enter the water.  Specifically your left hand as it enters at 39 seconds into the video.  Your wrist tends to collapse down and you are presenting the palm of your hand in the direction you want to swim.  That's creating unwanted drag.  I only notice this because my coach gets on me about it. :-)   

thanks. I have to watch out for that. I think I understand what your are saying.

2012-10-26 6:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
marcag - 2012-10-26 6:43 PM
Goosedog - 2012-10-26 2:02 PM

marcag - 2012-10-26 2:57 PM Please be as critical as you can because when I grow up I wanna be just like Arend


On the arms higher/lower, is lower necessarily better?  On the video I posted of me a while back, one suggestion was to straighten/extend my arms out above water  to have my entry further out from my head.  Previously, I was entering in the water and then extending my arms.  I guess straight/bent really doesn't matter above water (?), but did you feel like your entry was closer to your head with the lower arms?  It sort of looked like that in the video.

 

I have been trying to do the equivalent of a finger drag along my body rather than swinging my arm around either high or even at the surface of the water. The reason is when I swing it, I end up crossing over in the front due to the momentum of my arm as it swings around. I was swinging quite high so my hand was way up in the air.

I try to do a finger drag, it feels like one, but there is still lots of room for improvement

When finger dragging, elbow should go up and hand down naturally. At least I think it should. I am not sure if my hand is entering sooner. I have to check that out

I think you have the right idea with the new video.  Your hands may be entering the water a tiny bit earlier but you aren't stabbing the water up by your head so I don't think you are hurting anything there.  I do like how you have your elbows a bit higher - the first video you have a bit of a windmill  going on with the arms and like you said it can lead to a bit of a crossover in the front.  That said, the year i went to Canada Games, the winner of the 100 Free was a complete windmiller, almost no elbow bend at all...

I think if you really want to tear things apart a bit, you will need to get some under water video.  Above the water everything looks good but as you noted, there is a bit of a scissor kick and I also see some side to side motion with your head on the front view and some fishtailing on the rear view.  There is likely something going on with your pull that is pushing you to the side rather than forward.

2012-10-26 6:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
marcag - 2012-10-26 6:43 PM

GoFaster - 2012-10-26 3:37 PM

Why did you drop the bilateral breathing in the second video?

On hard sets I was lacking oxygen and ended up slowing down a lot.

Someone explained to me that the ability to breath both sides is important since the course/conditions may force it on us. But there is also a need for maximum oxygen, which for me is so true.

So I do breath on both sides during a workout. I warm up breathing bilateral every 3 strokes, but do my main set breathing every 2, but alternating sides from rep to rep.

This is my belief as well.  The ability to be able to breathe on either side at will is more important than breathing on both sides all the time.  If you need more air, breathe more often.  It's not a bad idea to practice getting that extra air on your weaker side though.  I am probably a 60% right, 40% left breather when just cruising but once things get tough, it's probably more like 95/5.  For IMMT I was probably 75/25 and the left side breathing was probably to see what was going on over there.

2012-10-26 7:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
marcag - 2012-10-26 6:43 PM
blbriley - 2012-10-26 3:57 PM

Marc, nice stroke and thanks for posting the video.  What I noticed is your hands.  Watch your hands after they enter the water.  Specifically your left hand as it enters at 39 seconds into the video.  Your wrist tends to collapse down and you are presenting the palm of your hand in the direction you want to swim.  That's creating unwanted drag.  I only notice this because my coach gets on me about it. :-)   

thanks. I have to watch out for that. I think I understand what your are saying.

This is where an under water video would really help.  Can you get your hands on a water proof camera and a brick to keep it in place?  



2012-10-26 9:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
axteraa - 2012-10-26 4:59 PM
marcag - 2012-10-26 6:43 PM

GoFaster - 2012-10-26 3:37 PM

Why did you drop the bilateral breathing in the second video?

On hard sets I was lacking oxygen and ended up slowing down a lot.

Someone explained to me that the ability to breath both sides is important since the course/conditions may force it on us. But there is also a need for maximum oxygen, which for me is so true.

So I do breath on both sides during a workout. I warm up breathing bilateral every 3 strokes, but do my main set breathing every 2, but alternating sides from rep to rep.

This is my belief as well.  The ability to be able to breathe on either side at will is more important than breathing on both sides all the time.  If you need more air, breathe more often.  It's not a bad idea to practice getting that extra air on your weaker side though.  I am probably a 60% right, 40% left breather when just cruising but once things get tough, it's probably more like 95/5.  For IMMT I was probably 75/25 and the left side breathing was probably to see what was going on over there.

In Western Australia last year, the swim was counterclockwise around the jetty.  Left is my strong side so I had a clear view of the jetty during the entire swim, no additional sighting required.  Plus with the way the waves were breaking, left-side breathers were not getting hit in the face.

But it's amazing how many people still stuck to breathing 100% on the right.  Even though it was a big disadvantage.  You never know when breathing on your off-side will come in handy.

Bi-lateral breathing is worth practicing in the pool.  Try picking up your stroke rate if you need more oxygen.  It's a good drill at least.

2012-10-27 6:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
axteraa - 2012-10-26 7:00 PM

This is where an under water video would really help.  Can you get your hands on a water proof camera and a brick to keep it in place?  

Yes. I am going to get an under water camera and continue my work.

With the endless pool videos I feel like the Mr Swim Not Smooth.

Arend, you have to get to Montreal so we can film the proper way of doing it for the group.

2012-10-27 7:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
TheClaaaw - 2012-10-26 9:35 AM
KansasMom - 2012-10-25 8:47 PM
axteraa - 2012-10-25 4:23 PM
GoFaster - 2012-10-25 5:36 PM 

I know Arend also had a period of lots of running (daily if I recall), btu it was shorter distances, and that didn't translate as well for an HM.  Correct me if I'm wrong on this statment Arend.

That's right.  I ran 117 days straight, never more than 12k.  I dropped significant time off both my 5k and 10k best times.  A few months after that I ran a HM after having dropped my weekly running to ~5 times per week and adding longer runs.  The HM hurt bad!  My big mistake there was I was following the Scout "Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard" plan.... except i left out the "sometimes hard" part.  

Thank you for this discussion. It's very helpful. Running "mostly easy" is so comfortable. It's easy for me to just keep everything at that easy, comfortable, just barely pushing it state.

What does running "hard" look like to you all? I don't mean pace, but more RPE and structure -- a tempo run, lactate threshold (I've not been tested anyway), track intervals? I'm assuming it means something more than fartleks thrown in now and then, but could that also be part of it?

I also need to hear a lot more about this. I want to switch my run training. I do nothing but the same effort runs, for mileage. I know that got me from the couch (more like recliner) to a ridiculously slow half-marathon, but I think it's time to run, run. Even pushing for a 5k pr this summer, I barely got under 40 minutes. I'm never wiped out the way other people are after a 5k, in terms of breath, sweat, etc... I have sore legs after many miles, which is to be expected, carrying 250. 

I've asked this in different ways in tritalk before, but mostly my take-away was that for a beginner, just get the miles in and speed will come. OK, sure. But I want to run hard. I have a HRM but never use it. I think it can't always get a reading on me, with my size. But let's say it can. Most people seem to use a HRM to keep it DOWN for a period of time. I am such an odd trainer, I am sure I need to use it to push myself to get it UP. OK that came out wrong.

With my shift this winter, to focus on weight loss and speed, I plan to push it. Hard. But I probably need more direction than I have taken the last two years, just counting miles. 

Andy, coming from someone who's been around a while and has lost an entire human in body weight AND run while considerably heavier and shorter than you (unless you're somewhere between 5'3" and 5'4" ... )

This is just my random experience, but ... first, I agree with Fred. Consistent running and continuing to build up (to a lot of) mileage is the cake. And IMO it's going to get you a lot lighter and faster, injury free, than pushing it. Your logs aren't open so I really can't say one way or the other.

My personal opinion is that at your weight and experience level, you're better off including "sometimes hard" as hills and strides.

My other random experience is that it is VERY hard to accomplish two major goals in one season (or off-season). For example, I can either bump up a distance, OR get faster at a current one. But not both.

I can lose a lot of weight, or train a lot. But not both.

There are exceptions. Most of them have dedicated something like 20-30 hrs a week to their goals, or are folks who are literally brand new so are still on the sharp-slope side of the improvement curve.

2012-10-27 7:39 AM
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