Fred D Mentor Group Part III (Page 60)

Exactly why I set my goals the way I did.  The scale can be a really good or really bad motivator.  And in order to keep the weight off, I feel I need to change habits somewhat permanantly rather than chase a number.  I can only chase a number for so long.  But once you make good habits, it sort of just becomes part of who you are, and there isn't anything to chase.

I haven't looked into the studies that much, but I have had a couple of personal examples.  Normally I would drink a diet soda (I would usually get a 32 ounce) at lunch...and that's it for the day.  It served as my caffeine for the day since I don't drink coffee.  A couple of times I didn't get a diet soda at lunch...I decided to have a 20 oz bottle at about 3pm for the caffeine.  I didn't eat anything with it.  But right after work I got huge hunger cravings similar to if I was about to bonk or something.  Ended up going to a 7-11 and buying a whole bunch of crap.

I don't know if it was because of the diet soda...but compared to what others were saying about it causing hunger, I told myself I would at least try to cut it out and see what happens.  So now I drink green tea instead.  The packets are offered free at work, so if nothing else it saves me $1.50 each day since I don't need to buy a diet soda.

Totally agree, it is all about setting good habits.  Once you do that your weight will eventually settle to where it should be. 

Random x3 on that. I'd think even 2x:20 (but really hard-out) although of course x:30 or x:45 would be even better with the occasional weekend ride ... I really don't think you're gonna lose that much in 2mos, honestly.

Also, the random and possibly irrelevant n=1 experience of this BOPer is that run training has a stronger crossover effect to cycling than does cycling to running.

Interesting you say that. Normally I believe this to be true.

However I have been following what I proposed Fred do, ie shorter interval stuff on the bike and I have noticed that cycling above LT has made my ability to run near LT much easier. On runs I go up hills, hit LTHR and it hurts but not nearly as much as it used to. I suspect the cycling is helping my run and I am just learning to feel ok at LT. When I was doing nothing but long/slow bike and runs I used to suffer at LT.

When I do BarryP I you use those 2 "medium" runs to do tempo and steady state runs, which I believe will be easier for me now as I am more comfortable around LT.

Just an observation of what has been happening recently with the short bike intervals.

I do believe that more time (for me) spent exploring the hurt (how hard I need to go, how hard I can go and still finish, what is too easy) only benefits my performance, regardless of the sport. Coming from a non-sports background, getting comfortable with LT on bike OR run will only help me in the long run.  I'm not saying that I camp out at LT, but that now that I know what it feels like, it is easier to play with it and subsequently feel like I can continue. I completely agree that when I do nothing but long/slow bike and runs, LT is much more painful.

Intervals are where it's at!

Runners often refer to the ability to hold a hard pace for long without fading due to leg fatigue as 'strength'.  One can't use that word with triathletes without sparking a firestorm, but we're all friends here...  Suffice to say I'm not referring to the ability to leg press a big pile of 45lb weights.

I've found that one of the effective ways to build running strength is not intervals but progression runs.  Especially lately, they seem to be working for me very well.  Whether that's what would work for you (or anybody) depends on what your limiter is.  My limiter in longer runs is muscular fatigue.  I'm not maxed out aerobically -- I could take in, and use, more oxygen.  My legs just won't do it.

Michael, can you tell us a little more about your progression runs, how you do them, how they fit into your overall running, etc?

Question for the fishies.

I wanted to try something different for my swim workout tonight.  Looking at 50x50's as I never tried a workout like that before.  Just wondering what would be an advisable pace to shoot for and an approximate rest interval.

Currently I can do 10x100 on 1:45, coming in around 1:30 without feeling too trashed.  I think I could do that as a 10x15 set and be completely wasted.  So I was thinking maybe 50x50 @ 0:55 coming in around :45?

Should I be shooting for shorter/longer rest or faster/slower pace?

50x50 can be a pretty mind numbing set - on :55 that's 45 mins of the same thing over and over.  How about mixing it up a bit?  (5 on :55, 5 on :50, 5 on :60) x 3 - that's 45 then add one more 5 on :50 to finish you off.

I've done 50x50 on :50 and found it mentally tough to stay focused.  Now if your goal is to work on even pacing over a long period of time, it's probably good for that.

The only set I hate more than 50x50 is ... 12x200 fly.

That said, super power to you if you do it. My random-azz guess (mainly because it's the way I've done it, or had to do it, the only times I did it) is to do them descending in groups of 10*. Let's see ... 1:00, 0:55, 0:50, 0:45, 0:40? (or add 5s) ... whatever you think you can handle without vomiting on that last group of 10, and getting at least 1-2s rest. Maybe. The last 10x50 really should be a beast no matter how you do it.

1 - Smooth, 2 - Strong, 3 - Strain, 4 - Struggle, 5 - Suicide

P.S. That would be descending BY groups of 10, not descending WITHIN groups of 10.

Ok, I literally LOL'd walking down the street staring at my phone at that.  

That does sound a bit more interesting, but I wanted to keep it simple.  Just set the interval setting on my watch to :55 and 50 reps and go.  Maybe I'll keep the interval at 55 but just vary the pace.  So 5 shooting for 2 seconds, 5 shooting for 45 seconds, and 5 shooting for 48 seconds.  Overall average will be 45, but varying pace.

If you are going to do it that way, for the ones that you get extra rest, you should be going HARD.  By the 5th one, it should be really tough to hold the pace.

OK - so I got blown off the back of the Fred D peloton 6 weeks ago. I gave up on trying to catch back on so I just Rosie Ruiz'd it and hopped a cab back up to the group. Once I get my breath I may actually take a pull or two....

Progression runs are my most feared workouts, but if I had to pick a single workout that got me race-ready both mentally and physically, this would be it. I don't do them very often (only during LT builds) but they go something like the following. I start "easy" with a 5k progression then work my way up to a 10k progression by the end of my build. Note that my zones (Recovery, Base, Endurance, Tempo, Steady State) are not the typical 1-5. Instead they overlap each other somewhat, but you get the gist.

These are also some of the only handful of workouts I do by distance instead of time. They are custom workouts that I keep on my garmin - it beeps and vibrates at the end of each distance.

5k Progression
Warm up for 10 minutes as you see fit, then:
1K in endurance
1K in steady state
2K in tempo
1K whatever you have left.
Cool down at least 5 minutes.

8k Progression
Warm up for 20 minutes (or longer) as you see fit then:
2K in Endurance
2K in Steady State
3K in Tempo
1K Whatever you have left.
Cool down at least 5 minutes.

10k Progression
Warm up for 20 minutes (or longer) as you see fit then:
2K in Endurance
3K in Steady State
4K in Tempo
1K Whatever you have left.
Cool down at least 5 minutes.

I think the progression run is so tough for me mentally because after a lifetime of intervals I am programmed to ease up when the interval is done; progressions work just the opposite: you actually have to run harder at the end of the interval.

I have not worked out my detailed training plan quite yet, but based on my current race schedule these will probably start in January. Oof - that seems so close.

Ah...I remember you mentioning this workout before.  Just couldn't remember the exact structure.  I'll give that a try.

Rusty posted some nice -- and difficult -- workouts.  First, let me say that I wasn't at all suggesting that progression runs are the be all end all for everybody.  Not that anybody was suggesting that I was suggesting, and not that I was suggesting that...

I'm generally training for races that are, or involve, 13.1 or longer.  (My shorter races are for fun, or for tune-up.)  So I generally reserve progression for longer runs (8-10 miles earlier in the preparation, 10+ miles later), but I'll sometimes do a shorter run along the lines of what Rusty posted, especially if I haven't done any intensity for a while and I'm feeling frisky.  Those are great workouts to 'ease into' what turns out to be a pretty hard run.  The recovery cost is high, but not horrible.

Mostly, I do three types of progression run.  I think I stole these from McMillan a while back, but I'm not sure.  Anyway, his site is a great read.  (I'm pretty sure I made up the names.)

Stair Steps to Heaven

There are really only 3, occasionally 2 or 4, steps.  I'll take a run -- call it 10 miles -- and do 1/2 mile nice and easy (recovery pace) to warm up.  The next 9 are split into 3 segments of 3 miles.  The first segment is z2 and the last is between half-marathon and marathon pace, so a pretty hard effort.  The middle segment split the difference.  Cool down for 1/2 mile.  This is not a terribly difficult run.  The first two segments are pretty much on autopilot and only by the third do I have to concentrate a bit.  It gives me a chance to do some running at or near race pace, on somewhat tired legs, but without a huge recovery penalty.

The Long Slow Descent Into Hell

Start in z2 and pick it up around 15s/mile (maybe 10 or even 5 if it is a longer run) down to race pace or a bit below.  Steady progression all the way.  At the end, cool down, or just lie down.  This workout hurts.  It is more like a race rehearsal, in the sense that where you finish will tell you a lot about how race pace will feel at the end, and in the sense that you don't want to do it more than once or maybe twice, and not too close to race day.  I've got one of these coming up in two weeks (which is 3 weeks before race day, and as close to race day as I'd do this workout).

Running into a Brick Wall

Run hard Z3 or easy Z4 (I don't believe in gray zones...) for 80% or so of the run.  I.e., get yourself good and tired, but not falling apart.  Then run faster than race pace for the remainder.  For a half marathon, I'll try to run this part at 10K pace.  This workout tells you a whole lot about whether you are being honest with yourself about 'race pace', and it provides a slightly different stimulus.  If you cannot go faster than 'race pace' for those final 2-3 miles, then probably your race pace is slower than what you thought.  If you find it easy, then you're probably undershooting.  It should be very challenging, but doable.  (Like running into a brick wall...)  The good news is that (for me at least), this workout does not inflict a huge recovery penalty despite the pain of the final part -- about the same as runnign a 10K race.

Of the three types, I do the first quite regularly -- pretty much whenever I feel up to it on a longer run, I'll try to progress it.  (I don't believe in long 'easy' runs unless 'easy' is the only reasonable option.)  The second is specifically planned once or twice prior to an 'A' race.  The third I'll mostly do impromptu.  If I'm doing a mid-week medium-long run, for example, and I'm feeling good, and I don't have some crazy workout scheduled in the next couple of days, I'll go ahead and hit it hard for the last 2-3 miles and see what happens.  It can be very informative.  And fun, in a 'hitting a brick wall' kind of way.

I hate you Shane

OMG that was tough.  I got through the 15x50 every 3rd fast ok, but everything after that was murder.  Especially transitioning to the last 5 all fast and I was starting to fade.

http://connect.garmin.com/splits/240723516

But now that I conquered 50x50, I guess I just need to do 12x200 fly

I'll do it with a set of fins

Nice!  

I have to say I've been sceptical of the usefulness of the watches that record swim data but that is actually kind of cool.  Do you have to start and stop each 50 for it to record them like that?