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 2015-09-14 7:05 PM in reply to: marcag |
Elite  3779      Ontario |  Subject: RE: SBR "U"Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by GoFaster What is your best HIM power ? Power improvement question. I likely asked this in the past, but have forgotten the response at this point. Given that the Tremblant HIM will be my A race at the beginning of next season, I figure I've got 9 months to make some improvements. Specifically, I need to improve on the bike and that's a combination of position and power, but for this post I'm concerned with power. If I aim to put in a bike block for about 16-20 weeks, any thoughts on what a realistic expectation should be in terms of % improvement over current CP? I'd aim to put in the focus between Nov-Feb, and would guess my current CP will drop a bit before I start just because I'm run focused at the moment, but in season I would have been around 245-250 CP. I'm trying to figure out if hoping for ~8% is too much of a stretch. 191 AP / 199 NP at Muskoka last year. Power dropped off in the last 20km as both quads seized again (has been a recurring theme at Muskoka) and had to really manage the effort on the hills getting back to transition. |
| 2015-09-15 10:15 AM in reply to: GoFaster |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by GoFaster Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by GoFaster What is your best HIM power ? Power improvement question. I likely asked this in the past, but have forgotten the response at this point. Given that the Tremblant HIM will be my A race at the beginning of next season, I figure I've got 9 months to make some improvements. Specifically, I need to improve on the bike and that's a combination of position and power, but for this post I'm concerned with power. If I aim to put in a bike block for about 16-20 weeks, any thoughts on what a realistic expectation should be in terms of % improvement over current CP? I'd aim to put in the focus between Nov-Feb, and would guess my current CP will drop a bit before I start just because I'm run focused at the moment, but in season I would have been around 245-250 CP. I'm trying to figure out if hoping for ~8% is too much of a stretch. 191 AP / 199 NP at Muskoka last year. Power dropped off in the last 20km as both quads seized again (has been a recurring theme at Muskoka) and had to really manage the effort on the hills getting back to transition. I suspect you could have better success bringing that CP number up very slightly but making it accurate and hold a true 80% of it. End result will probably be greater than if you trust try to bring the CP number up and hope everything follows. A person your weight holding 200w at Tremblant can do a pretty impressive bike split. |
| 2015-09-15 11:09 AM in reply to: 0 |
| Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by marcag I suspect you could have better success bringing that CP number up very slightly but making it accurate and hold a true 80% of it. End result will probably be greater than if you trust try to bring the CP number up and hope everything follows. A person your weight holding 200w at Tremblant can do a pretty impressive bike split. Interested to know what approach you think is best to achieve this? My suspicion is to focus on HIM specificity, but would you do that 6-9 months prior to race day? Edited by Jason N 2015-09-15 11:09 AM |
| 2015-09-15 11:16 AM in reply to: Jason N |
| Subject: RE: SBR "U" On a personal note, I just did my second trainer ride in the past few days due to all the rain we've been getting that has been causing flash floods. I had always set it up in my garage before and used a couple of weak fans. This time I finally cleaned out some space in the spare bedroom and took the setup inside where there is A/C. What a huge difference. Still kind of sucky, but doable. Got in a solid interval session, about 75 TSS per hour and I think I'll be using the trainer this winter for key weekday workouts. I just don't get enough quality in when the sun sets earlier in the winter as it's unsafe. Realized swift won't run on my laptop due to a weak graphics card. |
| 2015-09-15 11:43 AM in reply to: Jason N |
| Seattle | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by Jason N On a personal note, I just did my second trainer ride in the past few days due to all the rain we've been getting that has been causing flash floods. I had always set it up in my garage before and used a couple of weak fans. This time I finally cleaned out some space in the spare bedroom and took the setup inside where there is A/C. What a huge difference. Still kind of sucky, but doable. Got in a solid interval session, about 75 TSS per hour and I think I'll be using the trainer this winter for key weekday workouts. I just don't get enough quality in when the sun sets earlier in the winter as it's unsafe. Realized swift won't run on my laptop due to a weak graphics card. Did you see those idiot hikers who ignored the flash flood signs to go play in the waterfall? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTS-5PvWMFk It's amazing to watch how quickly the change in flow happens. |
| 2015-09-15 11:45 AM in reply to: Jason N |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by marcag I suspect you could have better success bringing that CP number up very slightly but making it accurate and hold a true 80% of it. End result will probably be greater than if you trust try to bring the CP number up and hope everything follows. A person your weight holding 200w at Tremblant can do a pretty impressive bike split. Interested to know what approach you think is best to achieve this? My suspicion is to focus on HIM specificity, but would you do that 6-9 months prior to race day? I would make sure that all my numbers are very accurate. I would find a way to check and cross check them and cross cross check them. You can skew a number pretty significantly the way you test. I would bet 98% of people on BT training with power could not hold their CP for an hour. There is a lot more to understanding where we stand than a 5 and 20' number. If you now all your numbers, you probably also know your weakness. Make sure your plan addresses those weakness. A person can train to improve their 5 or 20' number. If they stop there, are they any better on a HIM ? I know that I should be a lot faster than I am , if I go by my 5 and 20' numbers. But I am trying to address my weakness. Yes, you need specific HIM training. No you don't need to do it 6 months out. Agreed. But sometimes, some changes are longer to create than others. |
| 2015-09-15 12:14 PM in reply to: marcag |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Jason N I would make sure that all my numbers are very accurate. I would find a way to check and cross check them and cross cross check them. You can skew a number pretty significantly the way you test. I would bet 98% of people on BT training with power could not hold their CP for an hour. There is a lot more to understanding where we stand than a 5 and 20' number. If you now all your numbers, you probably also know your weakness. Make sure your plan addresses those weakness. A person can train to improve their 5 or 20' number. If they stop there, are they any better on a HIM ? I know that I should be a lot faster than I am , if I go by my 5 and 20' numbers. But I am trying to address my weakness. Yes, you need specific HIM training. No you don't need to do it 6 months out. Agreed. But sometimes, some changes are longer to create than others. Originally posted by marcag I suspect you could have better success bringing that CP number up very slightly but making it accurate and hold a true 80% of it. End result will probably be greater than if you trust try to bring the CP number up and hope everything follows. A person your weight holding 200w at Tremblant can do a pretty impressive bike split. Interested to know what approach you think is best to achieve this? My suspicion is to focus on HIM specificity, but would you do that 6-9 months prior to race day? Yes, take a broader look at things. Mainly the whole aerobic system spectrum, and work what is needed to build up everything. The race specific build will put in a bump off of that base. That's where I don't like seeing people doing race builds all the time even if they only ever plan on doing that one type of event. |
| 2015-09-15 12:18 PM in reply to: Asalzwed |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by Jason N On a personal note, I just did my second trainer ride in the past few days due to all the rain we've been getting that has been causing flash floods. I had always set it up in my garage before and used a couple of weak fans. This time I finally cleaned out some space in the spare bedroom and took the setup inside where there is A/C. What a huge difference. Still kind of sucky, but doable. Got in a solid interval session, about 75 TSS per hour and I think I'll be using the trainer this winter for key weekday workouts. I just don't get enough quality in when the sun sets earlier in the winter as it's unsafe. Realized swift won't run on my laptop due to a weak graphics card. Did you see those idiot hikers who ignored the flash flood signs to go play in the waterfall? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTS-5PvWMFk It's amazing to watch how quickly the change in flow happens. Yes, did see that before. had a river like that grow on me while out at Zion. It was completely dry going up, but coming back down was a fairly significant set of rapids. No way would I try to go in it. Get swept right up and there would be a large waterfall just around the corner with no way to get out. This was not the river that runs all along the base of the park, but was entirely composed of run-off and was part-way up to Observation Point. |
| 2015-09-15 12:26 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
| Seattle | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by Jason N On a personal note, I just did my second trainer ride in the past few days due to all the rain we've been getting that has been causing flash floods. I had always set it up in my garage before and used a couple of weak fans. This time I finally cleaned out some space in the spare bedroom and took the setup inside where there is A/C. What a huge difference. Still kind of sucky, but doable. Got in a solid interval session, about 75 TSS per hour and I think I'll be using the trainer this winter for key weekday workouts. I just don't get enough quality in when the sun sets earlier in the winter as it's unsafe. Realized swift won't run on my laptop due to a weak graphics card. Did you see those idiot hikers who ignored the flash flood signs to go play in the waterfall? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTS-5PvWMFk It's amazing to watch how quickly the change in flow happens. Yes, did see that before. had a river like that grow on me while out at Zion. It was completely dry going up, but coming back down was a fairly significant set of rapids. No way would I try to go in it. Get swept right up and there would be a large waterfall just around the corner with no way to get out. This was not the river that runs all along the base of the park, but was entirely composed of run-off and was part-way up to Observation Point. THAT is scary! Were there warnings?
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| 2015-09-15 2:19 PM in reply to: marcag |
| Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Jason N I would make sure that all my numbers are very accurate. I would find a way to check and cross check them and cross cross check them. You can skew a number pretty significantly the way you test. I would bet 98% of people on BT training with power could not hold their CP for an hour. There is a lot more to understanding where we stand than a 5 and 20' number. If you now all your numbers, you probably also know your weakness. Make sure your plan addresses those weakness. A person can train to improve their 5 or 20' number. If they stop there, are they any better on a HIM ? I know that I should be a lot faster than I am , if I go by my 5 and 20' numbers. But I am trying to address my weakness. Yes, you need specific HIM training. No you don't need to do it 6 months out. Agreed. But sometimes, some changes are longer to create than others. Originally posted by marcag I suspect you could have better success bringing that CP number up very slightly but making it accurate and hold a true 80% of it. End result will probably be greater than if you trust try to bring the CP number up and hope everything follows. A person your weight holding 200w at Tremblant can do a pretty impressive bike split. Interested to know what approach you think is best to achieve this? My suspicion is to focus on HIM specificity, but would you do that 6-9 months prior to race day? So if I'm understanding your train of thought, you believe that a lot of beginners can't hold their CP for an hour...thus their 5' test is probably too low. So a good way to address their weakness is to work on their VO2 max? This may not only result in a more accurate CP number, but also create more growth for threshold by "raising the roof?" |
| 2015-09-15 2:22 PM in reply to: Asalzwed |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by Jason N On a personal note, I just did my second trainer ride in the past few days due to all the rain we've been getting that has been causing flash floods. I had always set it up in my garage before and used a couple of weak fans. This time I finally cleaned out some space in the spare bedroom and took the setup inside where there is A/C. What a huge difference. Still kind of sucky, but doable. Got in a solid interval session, about 75 TSS per hour and I think I'll be using the trainer this winter for key weekday workouts. I just don't get enough quality in when the sun sets earlier in the winter as it's unsafe. Realized swift won't run on my laptop due to a weak graphics card. Did you see those idiot hikers who ignored the flash flood signs to go play in the waterfall? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTS-5PvWMFk It's amazing to watch how quickly the change in flow happens. Yes, did see that before. had a river like that grow on me while out at Zion. It was completely dry going up, but coming back down was a fairly significant set of rapids. No way would I try to go in it. Get swept right up and there would be a large waterfall just around the corner with no way to get out. This was not the river that runs all along the base of the park, but was entirely composed of run-off and was part-way up to Observation Point. THAT is scary! Were there warnings?
I left so early, not sure the visitors center was open when I left. Previous days they had known of rain being around and to be careful. I had looked over the 3D model very intently. Had a good idea what part of the route might do this. Also had been watching the weather a lot to get an idea of the rain. Got up through this bottleneck area before the wash came in and much of the day was spent well above it. Along the highest points you can see. I came back down early as a little side trip as I was curious with how much water I was seeing higher up. Now I'm getting curious what this would have looked like coming up from below. There was still water there late in the day, but just sitting or moving slowly by this point. |
| 2015-09-15 2:25 PM in reply to: Jason N |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Jason N I would make sure that all my numbers are very accurate. I would find a way to check and cross check them and cross cross check them. You can skew a number pretty significantly the way you test. I would bet 98% of people on BT training with power could not hold their CP for an hour. There is a lot more to understanding where we stand than a 5 and 20' number. If you now all your numbers, you probably also know your weakness. Make sure your plan addresses those weakness. A person can train to improve their 5 or 20' number. If they stop there, are they any better on a HIM ? I know that I should be a lot faster than I am , if I go by my 5 and 20' numbers. But I am trying to address my weakness. Yes, you need specific HIM training. No you don't need to do it 6 months out. Agreed. But sometimes, some changes are longer to create than others. Originally posted by marcag I suspect you could have better success bringing that CP number up very slightly but making it accurate and hold a true 80% of it. End result will probably be greater than if you trust try to bring the CP number up and hope everything follows. A person your weight holding 200w at Tremblant can do a pretty impressive bike split. Interested to know what approach you think is best to achieve this? My suspicion is to focus on HIM specificity, but would you do that 6-9 months prior to race day? So if I'm understanding your train of thought, you believe that a lot of beginners can't hold their CP for an hour...thus their 5' test is probably too low. So a good way to address their weakness is to work on their VO2 max? This may not only result in a more accurate CP number, but also create more growth for threshold by "raising the roof?" The VO2max work would give more room for growth, but would say the work on the 5' would be to better execute it and have better data points to work with. Not just improve it, but more so that one would actually give it all they have. Learning the hurt more. |
| 2015-09-15 2:48 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by Jason N So if I'm understanding your train of thought, you believe that a lot of beginners can't hold their CP for an hour...thus their 5' test is probably too low. So a good way to address their weakness is to work on their VO2 max? This may not only result in a more accurate CP number, but also create more growth for threshold by "raising the roof?" No, I think the way we test can skew the results and makes us sometimes identify the wrong weakness and work the wrong things, the wrong way |
| 2015-09-15 3:17 PM in reply to: marcag |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Jason N I would make sure that all my numbers are very accurate. I would find a way to check and cross check them and cross cross check them. You can skew a number pretty significantly the way you test. I would bet 98% of people on BT training with power could not hold their CP for an hour. There is a lot more to understanding where we stand than a 5 and 20' number. If you now all your numbers, you probably also know your weakness. Make sure your plan addresses those weakness. A person can train to improve their 5 or 20' number. If they stop there, are they any better on a HIM ? I know that I should be a lot faster than I am , if I go by my 5 and 20' numbers. But I am trying to address my weakness. Yes, you need specific HIM training. No you don't need to do it 6 months out. Agreed. But sometimes, some changes are longer to create than others. Originally posted by marcag I suspect you could have better success bringing that CP number up very slightly but making it accurate and hold a true 80% of it. End result will probably be greater than if you trust try to bring the CP number up and hope everything follows. A person your weight holding 200w at Tremblant can do a pretty impressive bike split. Interested to know what approach you think is best to achieve this? My suspicion is to focus on HIM specificity, but would you do that 6-9 months prior to race day? Thanks for the discussion so far guys. I'll start by saying that I agree with the assertion that 5 & 20min tests likely overstate 1hr CP - so my initial questions: - Apart from an actual 1hr test, what are better ways to better approximate your 1 hr power? Appreciate all the feedback. |
| 2015-09-15 4:05 PM in reply to: 0 |
Veteran 945 South Windsor, CT | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by GoFaster Thanks for the discussion so far guys. I'll start by saying that I agree with the assertion that 5 & 20min tests likely overstate 1hr CP - so my initial questions: - Apart from an actual 1hr test, what are better ways to better approximate your 1 hr power? Appreciate all the feedback. I believe if you give a suboptimal effort on the 5 minute test you will have an artificially higher projected CP/FTP. You will also have a lower projected CP if the 20 minute test is suboptimal. Being accurate is important and I have come to love Golden Cheetah. It would seem most people don't like to test but everyone likes to try to have a better performance on a test. I'd work to try to improve the CP with regular doses of workouts aimed at specific levels-high cadence to warm up, and either multiple short intervals at high intensity, or longer intervals at modest intensity. Consistent work will get the improvement, but how much is likely quite variable to the athlete. Every month, I tried to dedicate one week to specifically try to come close or beat certain metrics-5sec power or 1 min power or 5 min power or 20 min power. Instead of doing monthly or bimonthly 20 minutes tests, consider trying to beat your 1 minute max power consistently one week, then try a few efforts at best 5 minute power the next and then multiple efforts at 10 or 20 minute max power and repeat them. Shane had lots of nice workouts in the Power Mentor Group, depending on which class of rider you were (ie sprinter, TT or all arounder). Those were 60-90 minute workouts that packed a punch. Still, a solid 20 minute test is needed to supplement the shorter tests. Race specific training should happen closer to race day with longer efforts at 1/2IM pace and faster for longer times. Try to dial in a goal power and hold it for 2 x 20-30 minutes. You will then be better able to guess what % of FTP you will be able to hold on race day-closer to 80% or 85%. That is for later, not now. Time to build CP in the 'off season'. You've got months to make improvements, Neil. I also like the estimates of TSS, for the various race distances, with ~3.2 TSS/mile or 180 for the 56 mile 1/2 IM bike. Along the same guidelines, was the estimate of ~9TSS/mile or 120 for the 13.1 mile 1/2 IM run. These estimates can be used for race prep, when the time is right. For my last race, I tried to practice some bike/run bricks holding this type of intensity, or above, for a shorter distance to 'get used' to it and see if it was even doable. Take notes in your log and note av HR, RPE, NP, temperature outside, weight fluctuations and how you were feeling in general. It will all help you get to the next level. Edited by dtoce 2015-09-15 4:37 PM |
| 2015-09-15 6:10 PM in reply to: marcag |
| Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Jason N So if I'm understanding your train of thought, you believe that a lot of beginners can't hold their CP for an hour...thus their 5' test is probably too low. So a good way to address their weakness is to work on their VO2 max? This may not only result in a more accurate CP number, but also create more growth for threshold by "raising the roof?" No, I think the way we test can skew the results and makes us sometimes identify the wrong weakness and work the wrong things, the wrong way Ok...I'm trying to follow you. How should we test so that results are not skewed and how do we identify our weaknesses correctly? |
| 2015-09-15 7:08 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Jason N So if I'm understanding your train of thought, you believe that a lot of beginners can't hold their CP for an hour...thus their 5' test is probably too low. So a good way to address their weakness is to work on their VO2 max? This may not only result in a more accurate CP number, but also create more growth for threshold by "raising the roof?" No, I think the way we test can skew the results and makes us sometimes identify the wrong weakness and work the wrong things, the wrong way Ok...I'm trying to follow you. How should we test so that results are not skewed and how do we identify our weaknesses correctly? I wrote a response and it went poof. For you, that has lots of race data, I would load it into WKO4 and see what it has to say about your zones and "phenotype" For others, based on the results, I would test other points on the CP curve and I would validate them with some key workouts. Strength and weakness is not just physical. It's what we did well, not so well, and why. Edited by marcag 2015-09-15 7:09 PM |
| 2015-09-16 8:08 AM in reply to: dtoce |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by dtoce Originally posted by GoFaster I believe if you give a suboptimal effort on the 5 minute test you will have an artificially higher projected CP/FTP. You will also have a lower projected CP if the 20 minute test is suboptimal. Being accurate is important and I have come to love Golden Cheetah. It would seem most people don't like to test but everyone likes to try to have a better performance on a test. I'd work to try to improve the CP with regular doses of workouts aimed at specific levels-high cadence to warm up, and either multiple short intervals at high intensity, or longer intervals at modest intensity. Consistent work will get the improvement, but how much is likely quite variable to the athlete. Every month, I tried to dedicate one week to specifically try to come close or beat certain metrics-5sec power or 1 min power or 5 min power or 20 min power. Instead of doing monthly or bimonthly 20 minutes tests, consider trying to beat your 1 minute max power consistently one week, then try a few efforts at best 5 minute power the next and then multiple efforts at 10 or 20 minute max power and repeat them. Shane had lots of nice workouts in the Power Mentor Group, depending on which class of rider you were (ie sprinter, TT or all arounder). Those were 60-90 minute workouts that packed a punch. Still, a solid 20 minute test is needed to supplement the shorter tests. Race specific training should happen closer to race day with longer efforts at 1/2IM pace and faster for longer times. Try to dial in a goal power and hold it for 2 x 20-30 minutes. You will then be better able to guess what % of FTP you will be able to hold on race day-closer to 80% or 85%. That is for later, not now. Time to build CP in the 'off season'. You've got months to make improvements, Neil. I also like the estimates of TSS, for the various race distances, with ~3.2 TSS/mile or 180 for the 56 mile 1/2 IM bike. Along the same guidelines, was the estimate of ~9TSS/mile or 120 for the 13.1 mile 1/2 IM run. These estimates can be used for race prep, when the time is right. For my last race, I tried to practice some bike/run bricks holding this type of intensity, or above, for a shorter distance to 'get used' to it and see if it was even doable. Take notes in your log and note av HR, RPE, NP, temperature outside, weight fluctuations and how you were feeling in general. It will all help you get to the next level. Thanks for the discussion so far guys. I'll start by saying that I agree with the assertion that 5 & 20min tests likely overstate 1hr CP - so my initial questions: - Apart from an actual 1hr test, what are better ways to better approximate your 1 hr power? Appreciate all the feedback. Dale - thanks for the thoughts. |
| 2015-09-16 8:12 AM in reply to: marcag |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Jason N I wrote a response and it went poof. For you, that has lots of race data, I would load it into WKO4 and see what it has to say about your zones and "phenotype" For others, based on the results, I would test other points on the CP curve and I would validate them with some key workouts. Strength and weakness is not just physical. It's what we did well, not so well, and why. Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Jason N So if I'm understanding your train of thought, you believe that a lot of beginners can't hold their CP for an hour...thus their 5' test is probably too low. So a good way to address their weakness is to work on their VO2 max? This may not only result in a more accurate CP number, but also create more growth for threshold by "raising the roof?" No, I think the way we test can skew the results and makes us sometimes identify the wrong weakness and work the wrong things, the wrong way Ok...I'm trying to follow you. How should we test so that results are not skewed and how do we identify our weaknesses correctly? Marc - can you give an example from the CP curve at say 2hrs and what kind of workouts you would do to validate the numbers? |
| 2015-09-16 8:42 AM in reply to: GoFaster |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by GoFaster Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Jason N I wrote a response and it went poof. For you, that has lots of race data, I would load it into WKO4 and see what it has to say about your zones and "phenotype" For others, based on the results, I would test other points on the CP curve and I would validate them with some key workouts. Strength and weakness is not just physical. It's what we did well, not so well, and why. Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Jason N So if I'm understanding your train of thought, you believe that a lot of beginners can't hold their CP for an hour...thus their 5' test is probably too low. So a good way to address their weakness is to work on their VO2 max? This may not only result in a more accurate CP number, but also create more growth for threshold by "raising the roof?" No, I think the way we test can skew the results and makes us sometimes identify the wrong weakness and work the wrong things, the wrong way Ok...I'm trying to follow you. How should we test so that results are not skewed and how do we identify our weaknesses correctly? Marc - can you give an example from the CP curve at say 2hrs and what kind of workouts you would do to validate the numbers? It's not 1 workout, it's a combination of workouts and tests to confirm things. 1min test, VO2 workouts, way above threshold, some a bit above threshold that you can barely hit, long 3-4hr rides with a mix of tempo&threshold to confirm HIM pace, doing as Dale said and testing points along the curve, watching trends. comparing to other workouts and trends. Then looking at other hints on how the workouts were executed, and how you responded. Are you getting feedback on your workouts ? |
| 2015-09-16 9:18 AM in reply to: marcag |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by GoFaster It's not 1 workout, it's a combination of workouts and tests to confirm things. 1min test, VO2 workouts, way above threshold, some a bit above threshold that you can barely hit, long 3-4hr rides with a mix of tempo&threshold to confirm HIM pace, doing as Dale said and testing points along the curve, watching trends. comparing to other workouts and trends. Then looking at other hints on how the workouts were executed, and how you responded. Are you getting feedback on your workouts ? Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Jason N I wrote a response and it went poof. For you, that has lots of race data, I would load it into WKO4 and see what it has to say about your zones and "phenotype" For others, based on the results, I would test other points on the CP curve and I would validate them with some key workouts. Strength and weakness is not just physical. It's what we did well, not so well, and why. Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Jason N So if I'm understanding your train of thought, you believe that a lot of beginners can't hold their CP for an hour...thus their 5' test is probably too low. So a good way to address their weakness is to work on their VO2 max? This may not only result in a more accurate CP number, but also create more growth for threshold by "raising the roof?" No, I think the way we test can skew the results and makes us sometimes identify the wrong weakness and work the wrong things, the wrong way Ok...I'm trying to follow you. How should we test so that results are not skewed and how do we identify our weaknesses correctly? Marc - can you give an example from the CP curve at say 2hrs and what kind of workouts you would do to validate the numbers? Sounds like mean maximal, or at least something close to it. |
| 2015-09-16 9:23 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by GoFaster Marc - can you give an example from the CP curve at say 2hrs and what kind of workouts you would do to validate the numbers? Here's an interesting thing that happened this summer I helped a friend get ready for MT70.3. He did really well. He told a friend that I could probably help him with his IM. His friend called me, super cool guy. He asked if I could help him. Conversation went something like this. "Can you help me with my IM ?" "Sure, when is it ?" "In 6 weeks" "uhhhhhhh...." We agreed the best we could do is a few tests, some key workouts to build some endurance (he hadn't trained in the previous 6 weeks) and some aero testing. He had a SRM and a Wahoo Kickr, which was great. Based on testing he had done, he thought his FTP was 250. But his Kickr was 30 watts higher than his SRM. So we had to figure that out. technology sucks and sometimes sends us in the wrong direction He did a 20' test. It was "sub optimal". I did not match previous race results. With only a 6 week window we weren't going to spend the whole thing testing. We did a MAP test (ramp until failure). That gave another view. We did some 4' VO2max intervals, that gave a point of view. We did long intervals during long rides. We looked a lot at his HR and we zero'd into a IM bike power We figured out he was one of these outliers who’s FTP is probably 98% of his 20’ test. I am probably 92%, you may be 95%. It clicked on one of his VO2 workouts where he couldn’t hit some targets. We then spent a session at the F1 track and found him 1.5-2km/h in aero. We did a plan with best bike split. He executed it to perfection. He did his IM bike split faster than his HIM x2 then proceeded to run a 3h42 marathon and 30min PB on a course he's done twice before with more fitness. Oh yes, he also figured out his race nutrition It was a lot of trial, error and experimentation. There is no way I could have described to him how to figure it out. Every test led us in a different direction. But in 6 weeks we figured it out while getting him into the best we could with only 6 weeks. I told him before we could not get him in great shape, but we could optimize what he had. That said, he’s a pretty exceptional guy in terms of work etiquette and talent Edited by marcag 2015-09-16 9:27 AM |
| 2015-09-16 2:02 PM in reply to: marcag |
| Subject: RE: SBR "U" |
| 2015-09-16 2:41 PM in reply to: #5079829 |
| 3 | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Hi! I'm Ann Marie and am new to exercise (used to dance as a kid) as I have been sedentary since then. I was inspired by looking at a few pictures of athletes coming out of the water to run to their bikes to start the second run of the IM. I've recently turned 37 and haven't done any sports since high school (soccer & cheerleading). Since then I started with the C25K and was doing great but then started getting tendinitis in my knees so laid off the running. Tried the elliptical and can't stand it...I hate it because I don't get half as good a workout than running. I went to a sports clinic to get some help with my knees. I'm a good swimmer and since I've started running I can swim longer doing the freestyle than I've ever done before (still not up to a mile yet). The bike is pretty easy (can pump out 7 miles no problem). But running kicks my butt every time. I want to do an HIM in April in Florida 2016. I'm hesitant to start the C25K again as I think that it was too fast to get into running right away? I mean I went from nothing to walking/running 2-3 miles 3-4 days a week. My workout consisted of prunning/walking 30 mins to swimming or biking for 30 mins. I'm not sure how to pace myself to get ready for the HIM and I can't afford a trainer. I do have a gym membership and it has an indoor pool, stationary bikes, and treadmills. Everything I need right? |
| 2015-09-16 6:12 PM in reply to: Annie1234 |
| Subject: RE: SBR "U" Hi Ann Marie. Welcome and congrats on making the change from a sedentary lifestyle. Be patient with your running progress. Being sedentary likely means a lot of your joints and tendons are not used to the pounding of running. It will take some time for them to acclimate, but don't get discouraged. One of the basic approaches to building run fitness is to spread out your volume (miles) through frequency. So maybe instead of diving into 2-3 mile runs, focus more on 1-1.5 mile runs but more frequently. Then slowly build on that.
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