Swim Propulsion
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2008-02-29 3:55 PM |
Extreme Veteran 450 Upstate, SC | Subject: Swim Propulsion Is propulsion supposed to come from the bottom or top of your foot? |
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2008-02-29 3:57 PM in reply to: #1244790 |
Master 2060 Northern California | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion katybug34 - 2008-02-29 1:55 PM Is propulsion supposed to come from the bottom or top of your foot?
Neither. I don't kick |
2008-02-29 3:57 PM in reply to: #1244796 |
Extreme Veteran 450 Upstate, SC | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion coachese - 2008-02-29 4:57 PM katybug34 - 2008-02-29 1:55 PM Is propulsion supposed to come from the bottom or top of your foot?
Neither. I don't kick Well, I do and I need to know if I am practicing right. |
2008-02-29 4:02 PM in reply to: #1244798 |
Master 2060 Northern California | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion katybug34 - 2008-02-29 1:57 PM coachese - 2008-02-29 4:57 PM Well, I do and I need to know if I am practicing right. katybug34 - 2008-02-29 1:55 PM Is propulsion supposed to come from the bottom or top of your foot?
Neither. I don't kick OK. Propulsion comes mainly from your hip/trunk rotation. If it (mostly) came from your feet, then people that don't kick would sink. |
2008-02-29 4:04 PM in reply to: #1244790 |
Veteran 285 Broomfield, Colorado | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion katybug34 - 2008-02-29 2:55 PM Is propulsion supposed to come from the bottom or top of your foot? If you're doing it right, both. Think of pedaling in a circle... you'll probably get more power from the downstroke (top of your foot), but you should get some from the upstroke (bottom of your foot) as well. With that said, however, most endurance swimmers, especially when in a wetsuit, don't kick any more than is necessary for balance and proper body rotation. |
2008-02-29 4:04 PM in reply to: #1244808 |
Extreme Veteran 450 Upstate, SC | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion coachese - 2008-02-29 5:02 PM katybug34 - 2008-02-29 1:57 PM coachese - 2008-02-29 4:57 PM Well, I do and I need to know if I am practicing right. katybug34 - 2008-02-29 1:55 PM Is propulsion supposed to come from the bottom or top of your foot?
Neither. I don't kick OK. Propulsion comes mainly from your hip/trunk rotation. If it (mostly) came from your feet, then people that don't kick would sink. I know that. What I am trying to figure out is if my foot should be flexing out like I am trying to point with it. I know this seems like a stupid question to some of you who are obviously much more advanced as a swimmer than I am, but If there is anyone out there that wouldn't mind answering the question without smugness I would appreciate it! |
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2008-02-29 4:05 PM in reply to: #1244815 |
Extreme Veteran 450 Upstate, SC | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion MinnesotaBrian - 2008-02-29 5:04 PM katybug34 - 2008-02-29 2:55 PM Is propulsion supposed to come from the bottom or top of your foot? If you're doing it right, both. Think of pedaling in a circle... you'll probably get more power from the downstroke (top of your foot), but you should get some from the upstroke (bottom of your foot) as well. With that said, however, most endurance swimmers, especially when in a wetsuit, don't kick any more than is necessary for balance and proper body rotation. Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for. This swimming "right" thing is a pain! |
2008-02-29 4:07 PM in reply to: #1244808 |
Member 1699 | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion coachese - 2008-02-29 4:02 PM OK. Propulsion comes mainly from your hip/trunk rotation. If it (mostly) came from your feet, then people that don't kick would sink. I guess I need to take a TI class, because I have read the book and seen other posts that claimed this, and I have no idea how rotating your hip/trunk would cause you to move forward. I rotate in the pool because I know I am supposed to, but do not feel much difference except it keeps my arms higher when I bring them forward. |
2008-02-29 4:09 PM in reply to: #1244825 |
Extreme Veteran 450 Upstate, SC | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion eberulf - 2008-02-29 5:07 PM coachese - 2008-02-29 4:02 PM OK. Propulsion comes mainly from your hip/trunk rotation. If it (mostly) came from your feet, then people that don't kick would sink. I guess I need to take a TI class, because I have read the book and seen other posts that claimed this, and I have no idea how rotating your hip/trunk would cause you to move forward. I rotate in the pool because I know I am supposed to, but do not feel much difference except it keeps my arms higher when I bring them forward. Same here. I just started the drills in the TI program and I am hoping that the whole feel of the water thing will come with practice. Very frustrating to say the least. |
2008-02-29 4:11 PM in reply to: #1244815 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion MinnesotaBrian - 2008-02-29 2:04 PM katybug34 - 2008-02-29 2:55 PM Is propulsion supposed to come from the bottom or top of your foot? If you're doing it right, both. Think of pedaling in a circle... you'll probably get more power from the downstroke (top of your foot), but you should get some from the upstroke (bottom of your foot) as well. With that said, however, most endurance swimmers, especially when in a wetsuit, don't kick any more than is necessary for balance and proper body rotation.x2 I'm no expert, but knew a couple college swimmers. I couple interesting things they told me....
As for me, if I kick too hard, I get only minimal gains in speed, but expend a lot more energy. In long disances, I would rather give up a couple seconds per 100 if I can save a significant amount of my energy.... Oh yeah, to answer your original question. You should be getting the "push" on the water on the top of your foot mostly.... Edited by Aikidoman 2008-02-29 4:12 PM |
2008-02-29 4:13 PM in reply to: #1244825 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion eberulf - 2008-02-29 2:07 PM coachese - 2008-02-29 4:02 PM I guess I need to take a TI class, because I have read the book and seen other posts that claimed this, and I have no idea how rotating your hip/trunk would cause you to move forward. I rotate in the pool because I know I am supposed to, but do not feel much difference except it keeps my arms higher when I bring them forward.OK. Propulsion comes mainly from your hip/trunk rotation. If it (mostly) came from your feet, then people that don't kick would sink. I think you may have misunderstood. You don't get propulsion directly from rotation. You can't just rotate back and forth and expect to go anywhere - I'm sure you know that. But it helps with getting your body in best position to get power out of your arm stroke.... Edited by Aikidoman 2008-02-29 4:18 PM |
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2008-02-29 4:14 PM in reply to: #1244836 |
Extreme Veteran 450 Upstate, SC | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion Aikidoman - 2008-02-29 5:11 PM MinnesotaBrian - 2008-02-29 2:04 PM katybug34 - 2008-02-29 2:55 PM Is propulsion supposed to come from the bottom or top of your foot? If you're doing it right, both. Think of pedaling in a circle... you'll probably get more power from the downstroke (top of your foot), but you should get some from the upstroke (bottom of your foot) as well. With that said, however, most endurance swimmers, especially when in a wetsuit, don't kick any more than is necessary for balance and proper body rotation.x2 I'm no expert, but knew a couple college swimmers. I couple interesting things they told me....
As for me, if I kick too hard, I get only minimal gains in speed, but expend a lot more energy. In long disances, I would rather give up a couple seconds per 100 if I can save a significant amount of my energy.... Oh yeah, to answer your original question. You should be getting the "push" on the water on the top of your foot mostly.... Thanks. I haven't got to the arm drills in the TI program yet, so hopefully once I get the balance thing down it will become more fluent. |
2008-02-29 4:19 PM in reply to: #1244818 |
Master 2060 Northern California | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion katybug34 - 2008-02-29 2:04 PM coachese - 2008-02-29 5:02 PM I know that. What I am trying to figure out is if my foot should be flexing out like I am trying to point with it. I know this seems like a stupid question to some of you who are obviously much more advanced as a swimmer than I am, but If there is anyone out there that wouldn't mind answering the question without smugness I would appreciate it!katybug34 - 2008-02-29 1:57 PM coachese - 2008-02-29 4:57 PM Well, I do and I need to know if I am practicing right. katybug34 - 2008-02-29 1:55 PM Is propulsion supposed to come from the bottom or top of your foot?
Neither. I don't kick OK. Propulsion comes mainly from your hip/trunk rotation. If it (mostly) came from your feet, then people that don't kick would sink. I wasn't being smug, thank you very much It's just the idea of the top of your foot (what, 6 inches by 4 inches) propelling anyone through the water made me smile. If you had asked if you are supposed to point your toes, I would have answered differently.
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2008-02-29 4:23 PM in reply to: #1244845 |
Champion 10018 , Minnesota | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion I wish I could explain it better, but it's possible to get propulsion from the hip. Instead of just rotatating...THRUST that hip into the rotation as your hand enters the water in front of you. Seriously I know it sound stupid... but it works. It's more of a snap. |
2008-02-29 4:23 PM in reply to: #1244845 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion Just wanted to add that as matter of fact, I can swim almost as fast while using a pull bouy (which takes my kick completly out of it) as flat out swimming. TI should help. I didn't buy any of the actual materials, but I read some of the articles here on BT for TI, picked up some tips and drills, and it has helped a lot. |
2008-02-29 4:26 PM in reply to: #1244870 |
Champion 10018 , Minnesota | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion This is true for me also. I took two sets of TI lessons (6 each). I'm very good at drills. If only I were so good at the darn freestyle... Aikidoman - 2008-02-29 4:23 PM Just wanted to add that as matter of fact, I can swim almost as fast while using a pull bouy (which takes my kick completly out of it) as flat out swimming. TI should help. I didn't buy any of the actual materials, but I read some of the articles here on BT for TI, picked up some tips and drills, and it has helped a lot. |
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2008-02-29 4:39 PM in reply to: #1244790 |
Modesto, California | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion Top and bottom.If you were to wear fins you would feel it x10. Most strong kickers are sprinters 50-200yd swimmers, some Olympic swimmers will even bring their feet out of the water. When I kick hard it takes way to much out of me for longer swims, I will loose my breath and then fatigue. When I swim longer distances I use my kick for anchoring to get a strong hip rotation, this allows me to get a long extension+longer pull=faster swim without the fatigue that comes with using my legs so much. Extend far and keep your elbow up, accelerate as you bring your arm back. As you get faster, body position becomes allot more critical in shaving seconds. |
2008-02-29 5:29 PM in reply to: #1244790 |
Elite 3020 Bay Area, CA | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion One thing I haven't seen yet on here is that kicking comes from the hip and if you're doing it right helps with your rotation. Basic foot position is pointed backwards, but you're not really HOLDING your foot there, it's more that if your feet/ankles are relaxed and you're kicking correctly your feet should be pointed backwards sort've naturally. (like fins.) So, as to your actual question, both the top and bottom of your foot will be engaged during a regular flutter kick. I think fins are a great way to practice correct kick technique cause they hold your foot in the right position and you can really feel when you are doing it right. On shorter/faster efforts you kick more to help you on the propulsion, on longer stuff, I don't kick too much, just enough to stay balanced, and as I said, help with the body rotation. |
2008-02-29 5:36 PM in reply to: #1244974 |
Extreme Veteran 589 Fridley, MN, USA | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion As well as the above mentioned, it's also important to concentrate on not bending your knee when you kick. Obviously it will bend no matter what, but the less it bends the better. This helps to keep the kick starting from the hips. Flippers and zoomers are great for practicing proper technique when kicking, and also help increase ankle flexibility so that when your ankle is relxed in the kick, it's flat as possible. |
2008-02-29 6:01 PM in reply to: #1244790 |
Extreme Veteran 498 Carpinteria, Ca. | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion I can only add a smidge. A big kick takes as much away from your movement in resistance, when your feet get out of the stream created by the rest of your body, as it adds in propulsion. A small fast flutter, hence flutter kick, from the hips is best. If you feel the kick in your quads you are not kicking right. Good luck. |
2008-02-29 6:13 PM in reply to: #1244980 |
Bob 2194 Binghamton, NY | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion sharp4850 - 2008-02-29 6:36 PM As well as the above mentioned, it's also important to concentrate on not bending your knee when you kick. Obviously it will bend no matter what, but the less it bends the better. This helps to keep the kick starting from the hips. Flippers and zoomers are great for practicing proper technique when kicking, and also help increase ankle flexibility so that when your ankle is relxed in the kick, it's flat as possible. X2 - The propulsion comes from the hip and uses the foot as a paddle. The top and bottom of your foot are both used. The top is used on the down stroke when the knee is slightly bent and the bottom is used on the up stroke. Check out Ian Thorpe in the clips below and see if that helps.
BTW - There are some of us triathletes that have a 6 beat kick and utilize it all the way through a 2.4 mile IM swim!! The idea of not using your feet during a swim leg to "save" them for the rest of the race isn't true. Kick how you normally kick when you swim. |
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2008-02-29 6:44 PM in reply to: #1244790 |
Member 43 | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion The most important aspect of kicking is that it allows the hips to rotate, which sets up the entire rotation of the upper body... secondly a proper kick will allow you to maintain good position in the water.. lastly, for the speed demons like Ian Thorpe and Eamon Sullivan - who recently broke the 50m free world record (21.56!!!), the kick can actually help propel them through the h20. The emphasis is on 'help' here. Swimming is an upper body sport.. the main function of the hips / down is to help position the upper body to achieve the longest/strongest stroke possible. That said, most people will do fine with a good 2-4 beat kick that emphasizes hip rotation. Just remember to keep the toes pointed and originate the kick from the hips as mentioned before. |
2008-03-01 12:37 AM in reply to: #1244869 |
Veteran 125 Kailua-Kona now in Oregon, | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion BikerGrrrl - 2008-02-29 12:23 PM I wish I could explain it better, but it's possible to get propulsion from the hip. Instead of just rotatating...THRUST that hip into the rotation as your hand enters the water in front of you. Seriously I know it sound stupid... but it works. It's more of a snap. Snap your hips just like you woulod do if you were throwing a ball or a karate punch is how I've heard it explained. |
2008-03-01 7:03 AM in reply to: #1245031 |
Littleton, CO | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion ...Check out Ian Thorpe in the clips below and see if that helps.
BTW - There are some of us triathletes that have a 6 beat kick and utilize it all the way through a 2.4 mile IM swim!! The idea of not using your feet during a swim leg to "save" them for the rest of the race isn't true. Kick how you normally kick when you swim. Thanks for the links - very helpful! |
2008-03-01 12:51 PM in reply to: #1244790 |
Extreme Veteran 536 Millersville, MD | Subject: RE: Swim Propulsion Try getting a set of Zoomer fins or other short, stubby swim fins for the TI drills. The Fish drill, Superman drill, whatever it is called depends on where you learn it, is mush easier with these fins. You can feel the ankle flex in a much more pronounced way with the short fins, and feel the difference between the top vs. the bottom of your foot in the kick motion. |
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