Is it aging, or reduced volume that's killing me?

Master

1420

Reston, VA

Subject: RE: Is it aging, or reduced volume that's killing me?

Daremo - 2008-08-20 10:57 AM

Scout7 - 2008-08-20 9:22 AM

Here's my thoughts:

A) Who cares about training times? When they give out medals for times ran in training, I'll start being concerned. Until then, it's just a number.

B) As Waterdogg mentioned, you have to have specificity in your training. Right now, you are all over the board.

C) Consistency. You are all over the board. Up, down, sideways. And I don't just mean mileage. Pace, mental state, what have you. You need balance.

D) To go with the mental aspect: If you don't love it, you won't improve. If you don't love it, DON'T DO IT. It's that simple. If you're not enjoying running, DON'T RUN. No one is holding a gun to your head. The only person you need to do things for is yourself. Not me, not anyone else on this site, no one but you.

E) All the training plans and advice in the world aren't going to do you a lick of good if you're not embracing them. You can go out and run for kicks, or you can train to be better. Training takes dedication, training takes effort and determination, and a desire to not quit just because you feel you suck. You want to improve? Set goals and work towards them. Concrete, documented, well thought out goals that are realistic and attainable. Then you work backwards, and realize that some of those goals will take two or three or ten years to achieve. And you outline some plans to achieve those goals. Every so often you review the plans, and the goals, to see where you stand.

That's all I got for now. I think most of your problem has little to nothing to do with your physical abilities and attributes, and almost entirely to do with your mind and attitude.

^

What he said ......

X3

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Champion

5781

Northridge, California

Subject: RE: Is it aging, or reduced volume that's killing me?

Donskiman - 2008-08-19 7:30 PM

I don't think it's age. I started running at about the same age you did and now at 52 I'm faster than ever. I've PRed 13 times so far this year in races from 2 miles up to the marathon.

What sort of speedwork are you doing? From your log it looks like all you're doing is shorter slow runs. The key to getting faster is a combination of long slow runs and short fast runs. Are you running the same route all the time? That can lead to getting stale and be a cause of not pushing yourself as hard.

x2 to not age. Same story for me...started running again at age 44 after about a 12 year layoff and, about four years later at 48, my times from 5K to marathon are still coming down...and that's with greatly reduced run mileage since starting tri training about 16 months ago.

I'm doing more tempo work than I was while I was still (re)building my aerobic base and longer long runs, but my run mileage is now at about 18-22/week vs. 35-40/week two years ago. I'm actually putting up times on that mileage that are close to what I was running in HS track 30 years ago, so I don't think it's inherently a question of age.

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Runner

Subject: RE: Is it aging, or reduced volume that's killing me?

Here's a fitness plan:

Go run when you feel like it, for as long as you feel like it. When you don't want to run, don't run. Ride your bike or play tennis instead.

Nice, simple, easy to implement, requires no special numbers.

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Subject: RE: Is it aging, or reduced volume that's killing me?

Insert "swimming" and we've had this conversation before. Don't like to swim/run? Don't swim/run. It's not rocket surgery

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Runner

Subject: RE: Is it aging, or reduced volume that's killing me?

Spokes - 2008-08-20 1:51 PM

x2 to not age. Same story for me...started running again at age 44 after about a 12 year layoff and, about four years later at 48, my times from 5K to marathon are still coming down...and that's with greatly reduced run mileage since starting tri training about 16 months ago. I'm doing more tempo work than I was while I was still (re)building my aerobic base and longer long runs, but my run mileage is now at about 18-22/week vs. 35-40/week two years ago. I'm actually putting up times on that mileage that are close to what I was running in HS track 30 years ago, so I don't think it's inherently a question of age.

But, you ran high school track. I have never had the athletic talent to be on ANY team in any role other than the back-up benchwarmer (the guy that sits on the bench just in case the benchwarmer is sick or something).

That's not a criticism, I think its great you're improving! When I was running 35-40 miles per week in peak training for the marathon, I was exhausted and sore all the time. The question I'm asking myself is if I'm not going to improve or simply decline to what I was before I started running on 15 miles a week, other than maintaining bone density, how do I motivate myself to run?

But I also think for some of us, we simply don't have the talent to substantially improve. There's a reason I sat at my parents' dining room table and ate a half loaf of bread + PBJs late at night almost every night in high school - some of it insecurity, but also a realization that when I played pickup basketball with my friends - I got my butt kicked. When I played no pads football, I got my butt kicked. I can't punt a football more than 20 yards, I can't throw it farther than about 10. A few years back, I had a stepson that was interested in playing football and I spent a lot of time working with him on kicking... and I like to kick the ball off the tee even though I suck at it.

When I played baseball, I could barely hit the ball over the shortstop's head, and I still struggle with trying to catch a baseball even tossed to me underhanded. Some of this is vision related, I'm severely myopic (-12.5 left -13.0 right) but I'm corrected to 20/20 but I still have depth perception issues.

Tennis... I've got quick feet and actually had a NCAA scholarship tennis player I dated tell me that "its a shame you didn't start playing much younger. You could have been pretty good." For some stupid reason, tennis makes sense to me in a way other sports don't compute, and I can see the tennis ball better. The newer oversized rackets also make it a lot easier to hit the ball hard and accurately.

Anyway, my point is that if you were good enough to make a high school team, and compete - even if you weren't a starter or star - you've already got inherent athletic ability that some of us have *never* had, and you're going to respond to training in a much different way than those of us who suck in comparison.

You're right.

It had nothing to do with all the hours of hard work and practice that went into making the team; the whole summers devoted to nothing but running lots and lots of miles in the hopes of breaking into the top five for XC, the extra days of practice put in voluntarily, the work outs done on your own to earn a spot in the varsity line-up. It's all about the inherent talent some have.

Your argument is crap, especially considering the context of this thread.

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Champion

5345

Carlsbad, California

Subject: RE: Is it aging, or reduced volume that's killing me?

Ok, how about this everyone:

A friend of mine (A very experienced marathoner and coach) has a very interesting theory about running.

He suggests that every runner, regardless of when they start running, takes about 7 years of hard consistent work to reach their peak performance. (Speaking in generalities of course) And the earlier you start, the closer to your lifetime potential you peak at.

It is not too hard to find exceptions to this rule. The 50 year old I know who has been running since high school that recently qualified for the USTAF Master Marathon Championships by running a PR of 2:41 at Boston earlier this year comes to mind.

But is usually the discovery of untapped talent that breaks the rule rather than the odd runner who reaches his peak earlier in the process and than fades.

No science to back this up but I trust his years and years of running experience

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Expert

2555

Colorado Springs, Colorado

Subject: RE: Is it aging, or reduced volume that's killing me?

Scout7 - 2008-08-20 12:01 PM

Spokes - 2008-08-20 1:51 PM

x2 to not age. Same story for me...started running again at age 44 after about a 12 year layoff and, about four years later at 48, my times from 5K to marathon are still coming down...and that's with greatly reduced run mileage since starting tri training about 16 months ago. I'm doing more tempo work than I was while I was still (re)building my aerobic base and longer long runs, but my run mileage is now at about 18-22/week vs. 35-40/week two years ago. I'm actually putting up times on that mileage that are close to what I was running in HS track 30 years ago, so I don't think it's inherently a question of age.

But, you ran high school track. I have never had the athletic talent to be on ANY team in any role other than the back-up benchwarmer (the guy that sits on the bench just in case the benchwarmer is sick or something).

That's not a criticism, I think its great you're improving! When I was running 35-40 miles per week in peak training for the marathon, I was exhausted and sore all the time. The question I'm asking myself is if I'm not going to improve or simply decline to what I was before I started running on 15 miles a week, other than maintaining bone density, how do I motivate myself to run?

But I also think for some of us, we simply don't have the talent to substantially improve. There's a reason I sat at my parents' dining room table and ate a half loaf of bread + PBJs late at night almost every night in high school - some of it insecurity, but also a realization that when I played pickup basketball with my friends - I got my butt kicked. When I played no pads football, I got my butt kicked. I can't punt a football more than 20 yards, I can't throw it farther than about 10. A few years back, I had a stepson that was interested in playing football and I spent a lot of time working with him on kicking... and I like to kick the ball off the tee even though I suck at it.

When I played baseball, I could barely hit the ball over the shortstop's head, and I still struggle with trying to catch a baseball even tossed to me underhanded. Some of this is vision related, I'm severely myopic (-12.5 left -13.0 right) but I'm corrected to 20/20 but I still have depth perception issues.

Tennis... I've got quick feet and actually had a NCAA scholarship tennis player I dated tell me that "its a shame you didn't start playing much younger. You could have been pretty good." For some stupid reason, tennis makes sense to me in a way other sports don't compute, and I can see the tennis ball better. The newer oversized rackets also make it a lot easier to hit the ball hard and accurately.

Anyway, my point is that if you were good enough to make a high school team, and compete - even if you weren't a starter or star - you've already got inherent athletic ability that some of us have *never* had, and you're going to respond to training in a much different way than those of us who suck in comparison.

You're right.

It had nothing to do with all the hours of hard work and practice that went into making the team; the whole summers devoted to nothing but running lots and lots of miles in the hopes of breaking into the top five for XC, the extra days of practice put in voluntarily, the work outs done on your own to earn a spot in the varsity line-up. It's all about the inherent talent some have.

Your argument is crap, especially considering the context of this thread.

X2

I started out mediocre in almost every sport I've ever done. It was only through hard work and determination to improve that I've overcome being mediocre. With few exceptions those who succeed are the ones who put forth the effort.

When I first ran a marathon in 2003 the time needed for me to BQ was 3:30. I ran 4:34, not even close. I kept at it gradually improving, 4:16, 4:04, 3:58. 3:55, 3:53, but still not close enough. Along the way I was injured several times from non-running related activities that set me back and caused me to question whether I would ever achieve the BQ. This year I finally was healthy enough to push through my former limitations in training and I ran a 3:26, as well as PRing in every distance I've run this year. Was it because I have some "talent"? NO! It was because I worked my azz off by running a minimum of 50 miles/week for over 7 months. It was because I pushed myself to run as hard as possible in races every two weeks for the entire 7 months. Much of that was done in the winter months in often very lousy conditions when it would have been very easy to blow it off. Instead of having a pity party for myself, I worked hard and got the results that took more than five years to achieve. I doubt I ever would have succeeded on only a max of 35-40 miles/week.

I may never be as good as the people who are genetically gifted with natural talent, but I won't settle for being mediocre. Through very hard work I've driven myself to become far more than mediocre. However, that's a mindset and if a person doesn't have it then it's very easy to settle for being mediocre. I don't look for excuses for why I can't do something - I look for ways to overcome my limitations.

If the OP doesn't enjoy running then by all means don't do it. However, it sounds like instead of working hard to become better, the OP is whining about being mediocre and then wanting to quit. If being good was easy everyone would be good.

FWIW, I wasn't a great baseball player either. I could barely hit a ball. However, I spent countless hours at batting cages until I overcame that and became the best hitter on my team andthe homerun leader despite being one of the smallest players. I threw a ball against a wall for hours on end to get better at catching as well. Years later someone could have assumed I had natural talent, but they would have been wrong.

If you want to be good put forth the necessary effort.

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Subject: RE: Is it aging, or reduced volume that's killing me?

My favorite blog ever on the myth of "genetic talent", Jonathan Caron, pro triathlete. 6:42 HIM to 8:46 IMC

Genetic......a word i dislike a lot!!!!

(he's french canadian, hence the english mangling.....)

Edited by ChrisM 2008-08-20 3:20 PM

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Expert

1183

Fort Wayne, IN

Subject: RE: Is it aging, or reduced volume that's killing me?

I qualified for Boston 12 years ago running 3:02 when I was 38. I had essentially a dramaticl decrease in my running for several years after that and now find that regaining my speed is taking a very long time. When I was younger (in my 20's), I could bounce back after a few weeks after not running for a while. Back then my best 10K time was 34:31. In my late 30's, the time to regain performance (at least a good portion of it) after a layoff had increased to several months. Now that I'm 50, it's been more than a year since i've been running regularly and I'm still nowhere near where I think I should be. My next step is to try and get more and better sleep and realize I need to change how I train as my body can't recover like it used to.

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Master

1741

Chapel Hill, NC

Subject: RE: Is it aging, or reduced volume that's killing me?

But, you ran high school track. I have never had the athletic talent to be on ANY team in any role other than the back-up benchwarmer (the guy that sits on the bench just in case the benchwarmer is sick or something).

Erase that line of thinking from your mind RIGHT NOW!!! You can be a great athlete! The only athletic background I had was 1 year of swim team in high school. And I sucked at it. I only joined the team because a cute boy was on it. I have zero athletic talent whatsoever. What I do have is a hell of a lot of persistence to keep tri-ing. If 'a' doesn't work, try 'b', if 'b' only gets you so far, try 'c', and so on. Right now I'm at 'zz'! My belief is that I don't have talent so I have to make up for it in other ways. So, look at the great replies you got here and figure out which one fits you and just try it. If it doesn't work, try the next one. a, b, c all the way to zz!

In so many races, faster runners passed me

I'd look at them as they wizzed by and wonder why are they faster than me. Many of them were heavier than me. Lots had really crappy running form. One chick was even limping and she passed me! I just keep trying different things because I know I can be as fast as that chick who limped by me! I will never win a marathon race, maybe not even ever qualify for Boston, because I don't have running talent. But I should be able to get closer to my age group peers in run split. Not sure how or when, but I know it WILL happen.

If you don't love it, DON'T DO IT.

How many triathletes love all three sports? Interesting point, tho. I love biking and that's what I am best at. I don't love swimming. I sort of tolerate it. I used to love running before I got all frustrated with it like the OP. Now I am learning to relax and enjoy it more with my grey zone theory (make sure the easy runs are easy and the hard runs harder). Maybe we all out to tell ourselves we love all three and play mind games with ourselves! I think therefore I am.

Edited by keyone 2008-08-20 4:23 PM

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Is it aging, or reduced volume that's killing me? (Page 2)

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