Math help - speed work on a tread mill

Making the assumption that 4X400 meters is approximately a mile, giving you a pace of 6:16.

really f'in fast.....

Actual number is 9.52 or about 6'18"/mile

I am tap to do 10x400 with a 400m rest interval between each, and my pace for the 400 is 1:34. I am doing FIRST for the Philly marathon and the pacing is very specific and is calculated based on race pace. I actually calculated it based on my projected MP (8:00), but I have confirmed it is doable, at least based on McMillan and my most recent 13.1 race time (1:37:55 on 9/20).

Anyway, thanks for the quick responses. Care to share the formula? I'm sure it's pretty simple, but then so am I.

wow 400 repeats on a mill?

I would bag the 400 workout and just run a tempo/steady state for 3 miles on the treadmill. It is a marathon you are training for right?

Here is where the numbers don't seem to add up to me for that work-out.  You stated that you ran a 1:37:55 half.  And according to Mcmillan, yes indeed, your 400M pace should be 1:32 to 1:36.  Now your work out has you running 4000M of these but yet Mcmillan would suggest your 4K pace = 6'40", fully 20" faster than your work-out.  Granted your get 400M rest inbetween each one so its no like running 4k straight.  Then again mcmillan would also suggest your 2k pace = 6'14"

anywho, just me being bored and looking at the numbers.  I'm also setting a goal of 3:30 in my upcoming marathon so I was even more curious of this work-out.  good luck with the work-out and the marathon!

Yes, it is a marathon, and I am following a specific plan with a specific goal so I'm gonna do my level best to stick to the plan. I have seen marked improvements in my training and racing so it seems to be working

McMillan pace numbers are different from Furman numbers. Similar, but different. I used McMillan to check my equivalent performance but stick to Furman for the specific workout paces. Seems to be working so far but I am looking forward to taper, race, and recovery. This was my first tri season and I've been working hard since last winter; base building, race specific training for 4 tris, and now marathon training with a somewhat aggressive goal while maintaining swim/bike with a 1/2 marathon thrown in for good luck.

BTW...I didn't get on the treadmill last night but it's a must do for today. I'll file a report.

I did this workout (400 repeats on 400 rest) on a mill training for a half this spring. 

Short repeats (up to 1 mile) are the only thing that I can stand to do on the tredmill.  It's broken up enough to stave off boredom and you look like a f'in machine running that fast amongst a sea of endless mill-walkers.  I also love that as you are dieing at the end of interval, you have no choice but to HTFU.

FWIW, I was running 400's at 6 flat per mile pace and ran a 1:34 half, so that may not be too far off.  Although I'm wondering what the benefit of 400 repeats will be for a 3:30 marathon.  I'd imagine longer tempos would be better.

For most marathon plans the speed of your intervals should be no faster than your 5k pace.

Still don't "get" the FIRST plan, but more power to you guys that are trying it out.

FWIW -

FIRST has 3 key runs which basically are; track repeats, steady state tempo, and distance. They do indeed mix up the length in distance and pacing of the track work and the tempo runs. I won't post the plan here but is easy to find online.

For example, last week track was 3x1600 @ 6:43 and two weeks before it was 3x(2x1200). The rest intervals are specific too, along with the pacing. I don't know if I "get it" myself, but I like the idea that less is more. I have a nice groove with S/B/R 3x each a week. Well, more or less... I have skipped a swim or bike here and there but have only missed one run due to illness. Oh, and I did do the same Tuesday track workout twice since I forgot to cross it off and just looked at the workout and not the date... doh!

The paces are based on 5K pace. I took my goal MP (3:30:59), used McMillan to calculate the equivalent 5K time/pace (21:39/6:58) and plugged that into the FIRST Training Paces Worksheet to get paces for all key runs. Pure speculation really, not based on an actual run but my recent half seems to support it

600m @ 5K pace/mile – 35 sec = _______; divide by 2.7 for 600m pace _____/600m

800m @ 5K pace/mile – 30 sec = _______; divide by 2 for 800m pace _____/800m

1000m @ 5K pace/mile – 27 sec = _______; divide by 1.6 for 1000m pace _____/1000m

1200m @ 5K pace/mile – 25 sec = _______; divide by 1.3 for 1200m pace _____/1200m

and so on....

Example

400m@ 5k pace per mile (6:58) minus 40 sec (6:18) divided by 4 = 1:34

The tough part was converting back and forth between 60 seconds per minute and decimal. Told you, I suck at math and it's quite possible the the entire structure of my plan is flawed because I was counting on my fingers. (that was only half in jest)

Yes ....... but I wouldn't even have 400's in there.  They do not really give you a lot of benefit as the time it takes to get above yor VO2 max. is close to half of the interval (unless you are on REALLY short recovery stints).

Again, that is not FIRST policy ...... it is just others.  According to one, the ideal length for VO2 Max. intervals is about 5 minutes.  So for most that would be a 1,200.  That coach does not even recommend doing mile repeats except when you are already running at a pace where you can do mile repeats at 5:00 pace.

No need to get into a FIRST debate over volume, intensity and frequency.  That is a whole separate can of worms.  Sounds like you are doing your interval sessions at the right pace (5k) and are seeing results.  Since your only option was the dreadmill, it seemed to work out for you.

So here's the update:

It wasn't as bad as I'd thought it would be. I did a 15 min warm up, steadily increasing speed. For the 400M repeats I targeted 9.6MPH and tried to watch the clock to see if I got done around 1:34 (I didn't have a stop watch, had to use the TM timer and do the math. Remember, I suck at math). It was a bit tricky to get up to speed; the buttons seemed to lag or stick sometimes. I suppose it's a safety feature on the TM but it bugged me. Anyway it took a couple of laps to get it right but I settled on 9.8 MPH to get a full .25 mile lap in 1:34. Part of sucking at math is counting and remembering the number of repeats. At the tarck I use pebbles, on the TM yesterday I used little bits of magazine paper. But, I got it done and actually enjoyed it at times.