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Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! (Page 6)
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| General Discussion | Triathlon Talk » Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! | Rss Feed  |
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 2010-06-29 8:10 AM in reply to: #2947098 |
Elite  3770     |  Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training!I agree, I can't believe some people are taking the original post the wrong way. Its a strong warning that needs to be said. People are cavalier about their swimming abilities. The same thing happens when I take people out on trail rides on a horse. "I can ride". That does NOT mean I have been on a horse twice in 20 years. Can ride = I have taken riding lessons. Can swim = I have taken swim lessons/was on swim team/can swim the distance required for a race or close to it. Its absolutely nothing personal. Its not meant to disuade new triathletes at all. Its meant to disuade those that do not have a realistic perspective on their swimming ability.
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| 2010-06-29 8:18 AM in reply to: #2947098 |
Extreme Veteran 694 New Haven, CT | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! I think there is a world of difference between being a strong/fast swimmer and a strong/comfortable one. The former is great but not a requirement. The latter really is. Can you knock out the race distance in a pool without being exhausted, aerobically or muscularly? Can you collect yourself and deal with dunkings, goggle loss, a close encounter with a lake critter? What is your plan? And, in my opinion, most importantly (and the reason that most swim tests involve a really short distance, like three lengths, and 10-20 minutes of "survival") - if you really get in trouble, once you get yourself to the side, can you calmly and with a minimum expenditure of energy wait for help? It benefits most people to take a break from knocking out laps every once in a while and just "play" in the water. Dive to the bottom, let yourself float, etc. And perfecting other strokes is a great way to do that. |
| 2010-06-29 8:26 AM in reply to: #2949115 |
Veteran 300 Massachusetts | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! tcovert - 2010-06-28 5:20 PM gobey007 - 2010-06-28 2:09 PM The kayak to kayak bothers me, I thought you got DQ'd if you accepted help?? Nope. As long as the kayak doesn't provide forward motion, hanging on it for a rest is legal. Unfortunately...and this is the sort of notion that prompts this sort of thread...some folks misconstrue the permission to hang on a kayak when you are in distress as permission to treat them like a string of rest stops. NO WAY! That is crazy. I guess I can see that if you needed to calm down or recover after a kick in the face. I agree that should never be part of anyone's plan to finish a swim. |
| 2010-06-29 8:35 AM in reply to: #2950205 |
Member 119 Houston, Texas | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! I was talking with my boyfriend last night about getting scuba certified. He asked what it involved and I said I had to be able to swim a pool (I want to say 200 yards), deal with losing my air while at a certain depth and clearing my face mask while submerged. He then asked what I had to do to be able to do a tri and I replied "sign up!" He said he needed whiskey, heh. Seriously, though, it did surprise me that I didn't have to show any ability before I signed up - mostly because people sue for every little thing and even some real big things. I'm curious how have lawsuits (if at all) affected this situation? |
| 2010-06-29 8:42 AM in reply to: #2947098 |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! Oh yeah..... The certification (for dist. - to be able to move "up") would be done SANS a wetsuit. How many triathletes do you think that would discourage? |
| 2010-06-29 10:06 AM in reply to: #2949993 |
| Veteran 480 | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! Puppetmaster - 2010-06-29 4:35 AM Yea I sucked at my first swim. So I entered Duathlon. I've been praticing  I can swim like a fish. Love to snorkle, free dive, scuba and all that. I have not and will not enter a tri until I have put in serious time training for that type of swim. So like you, I'm entering dus and running races in the interim. I am confident in my swimming ability, it's everyone else's that kind of freaks me out. |
| 2010-06-29 10:32 AM in reply to: #2950205 |
Extreme Veteran 395 Philly Outsider | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! gobey007 - 2010-06-29 9:26 AM tcovert - 2010-06-28 5:20 PM gobey007 - 2010-06-28 2:09 PM The kayak to kayak bothers me, I thought you got DQ'd if you accepted help?? Nope. As long as the kayak doesn't provide forward motion, hanging on it for a rest is legal. Unfortunately...and this is the sort of notion that prompts this sort of thread...some folks misconstrue the permission to hang on a kayak when you are in distress as permission to treat them like a string of rest stops. NO WAY! That is crazy. I guess I can see that if you needed to calm down or recover after a kick in the face. I agree that should never be part of anyone's plan to finish a swim. This might seem counter-intuitive, as you don't want people to rely on the kayaks, but what about the inverse if it were illegal? People would push past their comfort level and not stop for a rest at a kayak for threat of being DQ'd. This would end up being the more dangerous scenario. So while the process isn't perfect, it's probably the best scenario available. The basic fact is that triathlons are inherently dangerous. You could do EVERYTHING suggested in this thread: certification/proof of ability, TT/non-wave starts, safety belts, and whatever else... and people would STILL die once in a while on the swim. (And on the bike, and possibly even on the run.) The fact that this happens so infrequently that we're all stunned into heated discussion when it does happen is testiment to the rarity of the situation. Frankly, I participated in the Philly Sprint Tri, and I am rocked to my core at the tragedy of the drowning. Yet I still think a lot of the comments here (and the OP) are overreacting, panic, knee jerk reactions to an infrequent and impossible to prevent tragedy. |
| 2010-06-29 10:32 AM in reply to: #2947098 |
| 10 | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! without rehashing many of the very valid points made by numerous posters and the OP... I participated in the sprint tri in Philly last weekend. The swim course involves a half mile swim first against and then with river current (although the river was pretty slow that day) When the announcer made the announcement that because of the water temp (84) it would be a no wet suit race (not wet suit optional, but NO wetsuits allowed) there was a small collective groan in the crowd. He also asked how many newbies there were- many folks raised their hands. I'm not a particularly fast swimmer and even I felt more than a bit freaked out by this piece of unanticipated information, even though just the previous weekend I did an OWS over distance (in a wetsuit though)... I actually wondered if maybe I should drop out. It's not just about being able to swim the distance- you have to be able to swim the distance WITHOUT a wetsuit, which for many newbies provides a level of security that should not be relied on. Because this tri was relatively early in the season here in the northeast, I would venture to guess that many people, especially newbies, have never done an OWS without a wetsuit. So it's not just about the distance, it's also about being totally self-reliant, not depending on the bouyancy of a wetsuit to get you through. My prayers go out to the family of the deceased triathlete. |
| 2010-06-29 2:23 PM in reply to: #2950586 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! I guess I have to finally chime in. Though I understand or apreciate the OP's concern for the well being of other people (admirable)... I guess I just think let people do what they want to do and don't see the need to rant or instruct/direct people to train, or get safety devices, etc. If they ASK? Sure, it's solid advice, but not soap box worthy... Do I REALLY care if someone dies during a tri swim? Probably not, at least not to the point I would make some sort of official statement (or rant) about it. If I knew them or was close to them? Sure, a different story... Do I REALLY care if people die climbing everest when they try it without being prepared? Do I REALLY care if someone dies racing stock cars? Riding motorcycles? It's their lives and they did what they wanted. It's always sad in a way when someone dies, but unless it impacts me directly, I don't see the point of pontificating about it. Am I a cold/calous person who hates other fellow humans? I don't think so. If that's how I come across, I would suggest looking within and ask if you ACTUALLY mourn at the loss of every human life or feel outrage at every death... |
| 2010-06-29 2:30 PM in reply to: #2951216 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! Kido - 2010-06-29 3:23 PM Am I a cold/calous person who hates other fellow humans? I don't think so. A skunk never smells its own hole. Oh, and since when you did you decide to start acting like me? |
| 2010-06-29 2:54 PM in reply to: #2947098 |
Extreme Veteran 1996 Halifax, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! I would suspect that the yahoos who go into a race unprepared are the least likely to be affected by these sort of discussions, just as idiots who street race are unlikely to heed the warning 'speed kills'. I would also think that these threads will at least scare and perhaps prevent more responsible beginner triathletes from racing in our events. Those the message should be directed at will be deaf to it, but responsible newbies with normal hesitation will be frightened away. Edited by blairrob 2010-06-29 2:58 PM |
| 2010-06-29 3:12 PM in reply to: #2950040 |
Champion 14571 the alamo city, Texas | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! D.K. - 2010-06-29 7:37 AM If I have it my way, instead of a mandatory OWS test, I would ask people to sign a form, if someone entered the race unprepared, is sole responsible for their action and should something happen to him/her their family/friends/loved ones will not sue the organizer. This actually falls under the "not affecting others" category. It's like the NH moto: Live free, or die. Pretty sure every time I have done any sort of athletic competition, I have had to sign such a waiver that "such and such is an inherently dangerous activity and will not hold liable so and so". Triathlons included. |
| 2010-06-29 3:18 PM in reply to: #2950205 |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! gobey007 - 2010-06-29 9:26 AM tcovert - 2010-06-28 5:20 PM gobey007 - 2010-06-28 2:09 PM The kayak to kayak bothers me, I thought you got DQ'd if you accepted help?? Nope. As long as the kayak doesn't provide forward motion, hanging on it for a rest is legal. Unfortunately...and this is the sort of notion that prompts this sort of thread...some folks misconstrue the permission to hang on a kayak when you are in distress as permission to treat them like a string of rest stops. NO WAY! That is crazy. I guess I can see that if you needed to calm down or recover after a kick in the face. I agree that should never be part of anyone's plan to finish a swim. ah, but it is... |
| 2010-06-29 3:34 PM in reply to: #2951378 |
Veteran 300 Massachusetts | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! mrbbrad - 2010-06-29 4:18 PM gobey007 - 2010-06-29 9:26 AM tcovert - 2010-06-28 5:20 PM gobey007 - 2010-06-28 2:09 PM The kayak to kayak bothers me, I thought you got DQ'd if you accepted help?? Nope. As long as the kayak doesn't provide forward motion, hanging on it for a rest is legal. Unfortunately...and this is the sort of notion that prompts this sort of thread...some folks misconstrue the permission to hang on a kayak when you are in distress as permission to treat them like a string of rest stops. NO WAY! That is crazy. I guess I can see that if you needed to calm down or recover after a kick in the face. I agree that should never be part of anyone's plan to finish a swim. ah, but it is... I can see it now... There will be a rest stop at every mile on the run, offering gu, water and heed. Porta-johns at miles 3 and 6. The kayaks will be offering gu and heed. Porta-johns will be at the 5th and 8th kayak. |
| 2010-06-29 3:36 PM in reply to: #2950585 |
Veteran 300 Massachusetts | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! Apotheosis - 2010-06-29 11:32 AM gobey007 - 2010-06-29 9:26 AM tcovert - 2010-06-28 5:20 PM gobey007 - 2010-06-28 2:09 PM The kayak to kayak bothers me, I thought you got DQ'd if you accepted help?? Nope. As long as the kayak doesn't provide forward motion, hanging on it for a rest is legal. Unfortunately...and this is the sort of notion that prompts this sort of thread...some folks misconstrue the permission to hang on a kayak when you are in distress as permission to treat them like a string of rest stops. NO WAY! That is crazy. I guess I can see that if you needed to calm down or recover after a kick in the face. I agree that should never be part of anyone's plan to finish a swim. This might seem counter-intuitive, as you don't want people to rely on the kayaks, but what about the inverse if it were illegal? People would push past their comfort level and not stop for a rest at a kayak for threat of being DQ'd. This would end up being the more dangerous scenario. So while the process isn't perfect, it's probably the best scenario available. The basic fact is that triathlons are inherently dangerous. You could do EVERYTHING suggested in this thread: certification/proof of ability, TT/non-wave starts, safety belts, and whatever else... and people would STILL die once in a while on the swim. (And on the bike, and possibly even on the run.) The fact that this happens so infrequently that we're all stunned into heated discussion when it does happen is testiment to the rarity of the situation. Frankly, I participated in the Philly Sprint Tri, and I am rocked to my core at the tragedy of the drowning. Yet I still think a lot of the comments here (and the OP) are overreacting, panic, knee jerk reactions to an infrequent and impossible to prevent tragedy. Good point. |
| 2010-06-29 3:39 PM in reply to: #2951231 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! Scout7 - 2010-06-29 12:30 PM Kido - 2010-06-29 3:23 PM A skunk never smells its own hole. Oh, and since when you did you decide to start acting like me?Am I a cold/calous person who hates other fellow humans? I don't think so. run a lot. sometimes hard, mostly easy... |
 2010-06-29 3:42 PM in reply to: #2951307 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2010-06-29 3:43 PM in reply to: #2951361 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2010-06-29 3:43 PM in reply to: #2947098 |
| Champion 6046 New York, NY | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! I definitely think this is an over reaction. The folks who have died are not the ones going kayak to kayak - they are people who have had a cardiac event and drowned as a result of that - not being unprepared. So this type of thread just scares noobs. I want to ENCOURAGE people to enter races not scare the daylights out of them. I have no problems with someone entering who plans to breast stroke the whole way, or go kayak to kayak - they are out there doing it. Very few who do this sport rise to the podium. The rest of us do it for fun/health/look good/eat more.... Adults should determine their own risk level. As said in another thread, lots of people die on the couch watching tv. So should we start a thread warning that laying on the couch and watching TV Kill???? |
| 2010-06-29 3:44 PM in reply to: #2951443 |
| Champion 6046 New York, NY | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! PennState - 2010-06-29 4:43 PM meherczeg - 2010-06-29 4:12 PM Pretty sure every time I have done any sort of athletic competition, I have had to sign such a waiver that "such and such is an inherently dangerous activity and will not hold liable so and so". Triathlons included. Unfortunately that waiver doesn't stop people from suing. See recent IMFL lawsuits.and they lost so the waiver worked. |
| 2010-06-29 3:44 PM in reply to: #2951447 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2010-06-29 4:57 PM in reply to: #2950176 |
| Master 1929 Midlothian, VA | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! turtlegirl - 2010-06-29 8:10 AM Its absolutely nothing personal. Its not meant to disuade new triathletes at all. Its meant to disuade those that do not have a realistic perspective on their swimming ability.
blairrob - 2010-06-29 2:54 PM I would suspect that the yahoos who go into a race unprepared are the least likely to be affected by these sort of discussions, just as idiots who street race are unlikely to heed the warning 'speed kills'. I would also think that these threads will at least scare and perhaps prevent more responsible beginner triathletes from racing in our events. Those the message should be directed at will be deaf to it, but responsible newbies with normal hesitation will be frightened away. Ding ding ding! I just posted the following in a related thread: Problem is, the ones we have to worry about the most are the ones with no sense of their own skill level or what it takes. People that can hardly swim at all that think they can just PUSH through a bigger swim even though they've not even tried to simulate it. And I think the biggest problem with those folks is that they won't have the sense to know it either or care. So in many ways, the concern is being wasted as they won't respond anyway. -eric
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| 2010-06-29 6:28 PM in reply to: #2947098 |
| Expert 934 FL | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! The best way for those that don't agree and don't want newbies to read this is to ignore it and let it fall off into the archives. Since I do want the newbies to read this... I will finally chime in again. LOL If you notice how many threads are related to the swim and how hard it is for many, etc, there are obviously many that this may apply too. There are so many that read these forums but don't ever post for whatever reason... If the shoe does not fit, don't wear it. It keeps being said that most of the deaths are caused by cardiac issues and I am not arguing that but it needs to be taken further. What caused the cardiac or related issue while on the swim? The nervousness, lack of fitness, cold water, etc, etc all are factors that may bring on a cardiac arrest that may not have occurred otherwise. Therefore, while the heart attack caused the person to go under and drown, the factors of the event/swim may be a significant factor in causing the cardiac arrest or similar issue. Of course, similar risks apply to the run and bike but in those cases, some will likely see you quickly and you won't drown while having a heart attack.... Therefore, they can't be compared on equal ground. |
| 2010-06-29 7:46 PM in reply to: #2951449 |
| Bob 2194 Binghamton, NY | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! PennState - 2010-06-29 4:44 PM TriToy - 2010-06-29 4:43 PM I definitely think this is an over reaction. The folks who have died are not the ones going kayak to kayak - they are people who have had a cardiac event and drowned as a result of that - not being unprepared. x2. Jinkies I am agreeing with a lot of people lately. Gotta stop that So this type of thread just scares noobs. I want to ENCOURAGE people to enter races not scare the daylights out of them. I have no problems with someone entering who plans to breast stroke the whole way, or go kayak to kayak - they are out there doing it. Very few who do this sport rise to the podium. The rest of us do it for fun/health/look good/eat more.... Adults should determine their own risk level. As said in another thread, lots of people die on the couch watching tv. So should we start a thread warning that laying on the couch and watching TV Kill???? HaHa! Fred just said Jinkies!! |
| 2010-06-29 7:52 PM in reply to: #2951755 |
| Champion 6046 New York, NY | Subject: RE: Water Kills! Can't swim the distance? Never swam in open water? Get the proper training! trimore - 2010-06-29 7:28 PM The best way for those that don't agree and don't want newbies to read this is to ignore it and let it fall off into the archives. Since I do want the newbies to read this... I will finally chime in again. LOL If you notice how many threads are related to the swim and how hard it is for many, etc, there are obviously many that this may apply too. There are so many that read these forums but don't ever post for whatever reason... If the shoe does not fit, don't wear it. It keeps being said that most of the deaths are caused by cardiac issues and I am not arguing that but it needs to be taken further. What caused the cardiac or related issue while on the swim? The nervousness, lack of fitness, cold water, etc, etc all are factors that may bring on a cardiac arrest that may not have occurred otherwise. Therefore, while the heart attack caused the person to go under and drown, the factors of the event/swim may be a significant factor in causing the cardiac arrest or similar issue. Of course, similar risks apply to the run and bike but in those cases, some will likely see you quickly and you won't drown while having a heart attack.... Therefore, they can't be compared on equal ground. the last part is what most theorize - that it is NOT any different on the swim - it is just when you are running and have a cardiac event that causes you to lose consciousness you are still breathing - but when swimming you are face down in the water ergo you drown. so no it is not that the swim causes and event that would otherwise not occur - it is just that if you lose consciousness whilst face down in the water you will breathe in water not air. |
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