General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me... Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
Show Per page
 
 
of 3
 
 
2010-09-08 10:47 AM
in reply to: #3087185

User image

Pro
4277
20002000100100252525
Parker, CO
Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
RockTractor - 2010-09-08 9:27 AM
Marvarnett - 2010-09-08 7:07 AM I got a position violation at a Sprint tri a couple of years ago.  It actually cost me 3rd place in the series (I manged to keep my AG win by 5 seconds).  I was passing on the climbs and decided to do a double pass so I wouldn't send a team-mate 3 length back by only passing him.
Dan, Can you explain this in more detail? I have double passed before and thought nothing of it (thinking it was OK). It would seem that your responsibility would only to be to get your front wheel past the first person's front wheel within 15 seconds and then to get past the second person's front wheel in another 15 seconds... (Sorry for the Hi-Jack)


I don't believe there is anything in the rukles that you can't double pass.  I think it was more that the official looked at it as he was blocking because he did not execute the pass within 15 seconds.  I've done this same thing he has (talking while making a pass) but I've never been penalized. 


2010-09-08 10:53 AM
in reply to: #3087223

User image

Champion
5376
5000100100100252525
PA
Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
rayd - 2010-09-08 11:47 AM
RockTractor - 2010-09-08 9:27 AM
Marvarnett - 2010-09-08 7:07 AM I got a position violation at a Sprint tri a couple of years ago.  It actually cost me 3rd place in the series (I manged to keep my AG win by 5 seconds).  I was passing on the climbs and decided to do a double pass so I wouldn't send a team-mate 3 length back by only passing him.
Dan, Can you explain this in more detail? I have double passed before and thought nothing of it (thinking it was OK). It would seem that your responsibility would only to be to get your front wheel past the first person's front wheel within 15 seconds and then to get past the second person's front wheel in another 15 seconds... (Sorry for the Hi-Jack)


I don't believe there is anything in the rukles that you can't double pass.  I think it was more that the official looked at it as he was blocking because he did not execute the pass within 15 seconds.  I've done this same thing he has (talking while making a pass) but I've never been penalized. 


The rukles only cover what you do on unicycles while wearing clown makeup.  I think he is talking about the rules.
2010-09-08 11:01 AM
in reply to: #3087245

User image

Pro
4277
20002000100100252525
Parker, CO
Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
Pector55 - 2010-09-08 9:53 AM
rayd - 2010-09-08 11:47 AM
RockTractor - 2010-09-08 9:27 AM
Marvarnett - 2010-09-08 7:07 AM I got a position violation at a Sprint tri a couple of years ago.  It actually cost me 3rd place in the series (I manged to keep my AG win by 5 seconds).  I was passing on the climbs and decided to do a double pass so I wouldn't send a team-mate 3 length back by only passing him.
Dan, Can you explain this in more detail? I have double passed before and thought nothing of it (thinking it was OK). It would seem that your responsibility would only to be to get your front wheel past the first person's front wheel within 15 seconds and then to get past the second person's front wheel in another 15 seconds... (Sorry for the Hi-Jack)


I don't believe there is anything in the rukles that you can't double pass.  I think it was more that the official looked at it as he was blocking because he did not execute the pass within 15 seconds.  I've done this same thing he has (talking while making a pass) but I've never been penalized. 


The rukles only cover what you do on unicycles while wearing clown makeup.  I think he is talking about the rules.

my misunderstanding...NM. 
2010-09-08 11:39 AM
in reply to: #3085936

User image

Extreme Veteran
360
1001001002525
Jacksonville, FL
Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
RedCorvette - 2010-09-07 4:31 PM

garyconner - 2010-09-07 3:32 PM Funny, I did not realize that I opend up a can of worms with this particular rules violation and most importantly my spelling. (or lack of it)  First of all I posted this while setting in a traffic jam due to an auto accident, second I'm not complaining about the rule, or the fact that I lost two minutes.  I'm glad the USAT monitors theses races.  I just wanted to no if this has ever happend to anyone else.

I do race hard, and I like to win, and like most of you I have ran into a group of cyclist that are taking up the entire road.  We have to remember there are lots of new triathletes to this sport and they may not be as serious as all of us.  If this happens I hope you make them feel more comfortable than most have made me fill using this forum..


For the BEAR,  I have a Masters degree, (from a college....)  I would be more concerned with my times, then my spelling...  LOL

Im glad everyone got such a kick out of this.... 

People probably would have gone a bit easier on you if you had titled the thread:

 "I ruined the best race of my life by blatantly disregarding USAT rules" rather than inferring that the USAT was carrying out some vendetta against you.

And asking if it had happened to anyone else is tantamount to asking "Do any of you cheat too?"

Just sayin'...?

Mark?

 



My point EXACTLY.  USAT didn't do anything wrong here...the OP did.
2010-09-08 12:25 PM
in reply to: #3087185

User image

Champion
6962
500010005001001001001002525
Atlanta, Ga
Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
RockTractor - 2010-09-08 11:27 AM
Marvarnett - 2010-09-08 7:07 AM I got a position violation at a Sprint tri a couple of years ago.  It actually cost me 3rd place in the series (I manged to keep my AG win by 5 seconds).  I was passing on the climbs and decided to do a double pass so I wouldn't send a team-mate 3 length back by only passing him.
Dan, Can you explain this in more detail? I have double passed before and thought nothing of it (thinking it was OK). It would seem that your responsibility would only to be to get your front wheel past the first person's front wheel within 15 seconds and then to get past the second person's front wheel in another 15 seconds... (Sorry for the Hi-Jack)


RT:

The 15 sec clock stops when you complete the pass.  That means you go back over to the right.  So no, it does not restart with each front wheel you pass unless you move in front of that person.

The proper thing would be to pass, come over and rest for 10ish seconds and then pass the second person. 
2010-09-08 12:56 PM
in reply to: #3087450

User image

On your right
Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
Marvarnett - 2010-09-08 1:25 PM

The 15 sec clock stops when you complete the pass.  That means you go back over to the right.  So no, it does not restart with each front wheel you pass unless you move in front of that person.

The proper thing would be to pass, come over and rest for 10ish seconds and then pass the second person. 



Wow, that's interesting.  I had assumed that it was 15 per person, not 15 seconds "not on the right" at a time.  For others that also officiate, is this also how you enforce the rule?


2010-09-08 1:02 PM
in reply to: #3087508

User image

Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
Chaderbox - 2010-09-08 10:56 AM
Marvarnett - 2010-09-08 1:25 PM

The 15 sec clock stops when you complete the pass.  That means you go back over to the right.  So no, it does not restart with each front wheel you pass unless you move in front of that person.

The proper thing would be to pass, come over and rest for 10ish seconds and then pass the second person. 



Wow, that's interesting.  I had assumed that it was 15 per person, not 15 seconds "not on the right" at a time.  For others that also officiate, is this also how you enforce the rule?


I would have too.  What if you are passing someone who is drafting against the rules?  Shove yourself into the small gap?  Keep going by?  Is drafting, thereby preventing someone from being able to pass with 15 seconds, a form of blocking as well?  Even if someone is riding the legal 7 meters (?) behind another, seems kind of dangerous to require the passer to pop into that space......
2010-09-08 2:05 PM
in reply to: #3083096


15

Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
In my case I was talking to another bicyclist while riding on the left side of him.  This went on for about 30 seconds, at that time i passed.  The USAT official said I had 15 seconds to get my front wheel in advance of his.  At that time he would need to back off and let me over.  Who knows, thats why I asked.  This was my first penalty in all of my races. 


Wow I started a S@@@ storm....  Im sorry.......
2010-09-08 2:07 PM
in reply to: #3083096

User image

Resident Curmudgeon
25290
50005000500050005000100100252525
The Road Back
Gold member
Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
That's a wrong interpretation, Dan. Go back and read the rules (5.10h). The pass is completed upon overtaking, not by pulling back into the right.
2010-09-08 3:33 PM
in reply to: #3087520

User image

Champion
10637
5000500050010025
Tacoma, Washington
Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
ChrisM - 2010-09-08 11:02 AM
Chaderbox - 2010-09-08 10:56 AM
Marvarnett - 2010-09-08 1:25 PM

The 15 sec clock stops when you complete the pass.  That means you go back over to the right.  So no, it does not restart with each front wheel you pass unless you move in front of that person.

The proper thing would be to pass, come over and rest for 10ish seconds and then pass the second person. 



Wow, that's interesting.  I had assumed that it was 15 per person, not 15 seconds "not on the right" at a time.  For others that also officiate, is this also how you enforce the rule?


I would have too.  What if you are passing someone who is drafting against the rules?  Shove yourself into the small gap?  Keep going by?  Is drafting, thereby preventing someone from being able to pass with 15 seconds, a form of blocking as well?  Even if someone is riding the legal 7 meters (?) behind another, seems kind of dangerous to require the passer to pop into that space......


As the rules state it, though, once overtaken, the onus is then on that rider to drop back the 7 meters before possibly entering the draft zone again to re-pass. Sucks, but thems the rules.
2010-09-08 3:35 PM
in reply to: #3087669

User image

Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...

garyconner - 2010-09-08 12:05 PM In my case I was talking to another bicyclist while riding on the left side of him.  This went on for about 30 seconds, at that time i passed.  The USAT official said I had 15 seconds to get my front wheel in advance of his.  At that time he would need to back off and let me over.  Who knows, thats why I asked.  This was my first penalty in all of my races. 


Wow I started a S@@@ storm....  Im sorry.......[/QUOTE]

 

Hang out a little while.  This ain't no s@@@ storm, it's a light breeze. 



2010-09-08 3:37 PM
in reply to: #3087895

User image

Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
briderdt - 2010-09-08 1:33 PM
ChrisM - 2010-09-08 11:02 AM
Chaderbox - 2010-09-08 10:56 AM
Marvarnett - 2010-09-08 1:25 PM

The 15 sec clock stops when you complete the pass.  That means you go back over to the right.  So no, it does not restart with each front wheel you pass unless you move in front of that person.

The proper thing would be to pass, come over and rest for 10ish seconds and then pass the second person. 



Wow, that's interesting.  I had assumed that it was 15 per person, not 15 seconds "not on the right" at a time.  For others that also officiate, is this also how you enforce the rule?


I would have too.  What if you are passing someone who is drafting against the rules?  Shove yourself into the small gap?  Keep going by?  Is drafting, thereby preventing someone from being able to pass with 15 seconds, a form of blocking as well?  Even if someone is riding the legal 7 meters (?) behind another, seems kind of dangerous to require the passer to pop into that space......


As the rules state it, though, once overtaken, the onus is then on that rider to drop back the 7 meters before possibly entering the draft zone again to re-pass. Sucks, but thems the rules.


Yeah, I get the drop back part (i've done the drop back part... lots ), but if B is drafting off A - already breaking the rules - and you want to pass, B isn't going to drop off.  What do you do, especially if it's 2 or 3 guys that are drafting and you aren't going to pass in 15 seconds. 

Do you get a penalty for a 20 second pass if the drafter doesn't drop back?  Do you both get penalized? 
2010-09-08 4:25 PM
in reply to: #3086962

User image

Elite
4048
2000200025
Gilbert, Az.
Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
rayd - 2010-09-08 6:40 AM
garyconner - 2010-09-07 8:25 PM cheating "wow thats harsh"  Its been nice getting to know everyone...    Who is chi runner?


hey man...don't let some comments push you away.  you're really new here and I  you have not been shown a very nice welcome.  but really, lots of good stuff and people on this site.  you just left yourself open for some...you know. 

sorry about the penalty but chaulk it up as a learning experience.  just like your post here on BT.

Welcome!

BTW...I normally don't proof read my posts but I'm trying to be careful on this one. 


Ahem. Chalk. :p

John
2010-09-08 4:37 PM
in reply to: #3087907

User image

Elite
4048
2000200025
Gilbert, Az.
Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
ChrisM - 2010-09-08 1:37 PM
briderdt - 2010-09-08 1:33 PM
ChrisM - 2010-09-08 11:02 AM
Chaderbox - 2010-09-08 10:56 AM
Marvarnett - 2010-09-08 1:25 PM

The 15 sec clock stops when you complete the pass.  That means you go back over to the right.  So no, it does not restart with each front wheel you pass unless you move in front of that person.

The proper thing would be to pass, come over and rest for 10ish seconds and then pass the second person. 



Wow, that's interesting.  I had assumed that it was 15 per person, not 15 seconds "not on the right" at a time.  For others that also officiate, is this also how you enforce the rule?


I would have too.  What if you are passing someone who is drafting against the rules?  Shove yourself into the small gap?  Keep going by?  Is drafting, thereby preventing someone from being able to pass with 15 seconds, a form of blocking as well?  Even if someone is riding the legal 7 meters (?) behind another, seems kind of dangerous to require the passer to pop into that space......


As the rules state it, though, once overtaken, the onus is then on that rider to drop back the 7 meters before possibly entering the draft zone again to re-pass. Sucks, but thems the rules.


Yeah, I get the drop back part (i've done the drop back part... lots ), but if B is drafting off A - already breaking the rules - and you want to pass, B isn't going to drop off.  What do you do, especially if it's 2 or 3 guys that are drafting and you aren't going to pass in 15 seconds. 

Do you get a penalty for a 20 second pass if the drafter doesn't drop back?  Do you both get penalized? 


In all things, safety is a paramount consideration. If you pass a rider, it is on THEM to drop back. The pass is completed as soon as the leading edge of your front wheel goes past their leading front edge. They must IMMEDIATELY drop back the 7m.

If you are passing 3 or 4 riders at once, you should not have to get to the right in between each one, unless remaining on the "outside" so to speak impedes another rider, or causes you to commit a lane violation. Simply complete your pass of all riders, and move to the right when safe. Position fouls where you are not to the right of the lane usually occur when a lone rider is riding near the center of the road in an otherwise safe area.

They must completely drop out of your drafting zone after being passed (2m wide, 7m long centered on the leading edge of the front wheel) before they can attempt a repass.

The OP's penalty could come under position, drafting or overtaking. Theoretically, if they were not even, and wheels kept sliding forward and back in relation to each other, both parties could have received multiple violations.

John
2010-09-08 4:44 PM
in reply to: #3088024

User image

Expert
1111
1000100
Albuquerque, NM
Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
I understand the foul of the OP - that makes sense.

Why did Dan (Marvarnett) get a foul for double-passing?
This is the one I am not clear on...
2010-09-08 4:50 PM
in reply to: #3088034

User image

Elite
4048
2000200025
Gilbert, Az.
Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
RockTractor - 2010-09-08 2:44 PM I understand the foul of the OP - that makes sense. Why did Dan (Marvarnett) get a foul for double-passing? This is the one I am not clear on...


That I couldn't tell you, as it is not a penalty that I would call. Dan completed the pass in 15 seconds, unless he was in the drafting zone of the second rider he was trying to pass for 17 seconds.

That may have been the explanation, he was in the drafting zone of rider A (the back rider) for less than 15 seconds, but since rider A was also drafting, he may have been in the drafting zone of rider B (the front rider) longer than was acceptable, since they have separate drafting zones. That would make sense with the explanation that he was given, but when I went through the cert class and subsequent triathlon as an official, nothing was said about having to move over after every pass.

If I was that ticky tack about the foul though, I would also tag Rider A for position as well as drafting, AND possibly blocking if he impeded Dan from moving over to the right.

John


2010-09-08 6:34 PM
in reply to: #3083096

User image

Veteran
169
1002525
Stockton-on-Tees
Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
What I would give to get near enough to anyone on a bike to either pass or draft.
Surprised. And I wouldn't care if they could spell or not!!

Maybe next season when I get a road bike instead of a mountain bike.

I think this thread is really interesting.

J
2010-09-08 8:35 PM
in reply to: #3083096


15

Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
  • I say we end this now, its gone on way to long.  I messed up, its on me... 

    The bear will get a kick out of this.  I was putting on my wetsuite for my swim this evening, my hand sliped and I chiped off half my front tooth.  Just my luck.  I'll be seeing the dentist tommorrow..
2010-09-08 10:56 PM
in reply to: #3088046

User image

Champion
7595
50002000500252525
Columbia, South Carolina
Subject: RE: Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me...
tkd.teacher - 2010-09-08 5:50 PM
RockTractor - 2010-09-08 2:44 PM I understand the foul of the OP - that makes sense. Why did Dan (Marvarnett) get a foul for double-passing? This is the one I am not clear on...


That I couldn't tell you, as it is not a penalty that I would call. Dan completed the pass in 15 seconds, unless he was in the drafting zone of the second rider he was trying to pass for 17 seconds.

That may have been the explanation, he was in the drafting zone of rider A (the back rider) for less than 15 seconds, but since rider A was also drafting, he may have been in the drafting zone of rider B (the front rider) longer than was acceptable, since they have separate drafting zones. That would make sense with the explanation that he was given, but when I went through the cert class and subsequent triathlon as an official, nothing was said about having to move over after every pass.

If I was that ticky tack about the foul though, I would also tag Rider A for position as well as drafting, AND possibly blocking if he impeded Dan from moving over to the right.

John


This was my understanding.  In general (this is just my understanding) you have 15 seconds from the time that you enter the draft zone.  So the 'double pass' could in principle take 30 seconds if the first rider that you pass is just behind the draft zone of the second rider.  So, the sequence of events is:  You enter draft zone of rider A and the 15s clock is started; the moment that you complete the pass (15s later) you enter the draft zone of rider B; another 15s clock starts.  Of course, as Chris said, if rider A is drafting rider B, then your total time to complete the double pass is less than 30 seconds.  But this seems perfectly fair -- you get 15s for each rider once you enter their draft zone; it's just that those 15s clocks overlap.

It is true that if A is drafting B, you can't, technically, legally, pass A then pull in behind B, because you've already entered B's draft zone and are obligated to pass.  But if A is drafting B, then they are going roughly the same speed, so why wouldn't you want to pass both of them anyway?
New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Best race of my life unitill USAT got done with me... Rss Feed  
Show Per page
 
 
of 3