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2011-07-12 9:03 AM
in reply to: #3591024

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Edited by Fred Doucette 2011-07-12 9:05 AM


2011-07-12 9:10 AM
in reply to: #3591024

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Subject: RE: Do runners have the advantage?

So based on most the responses, the follow-up would be that triathlon being a single sport and the most balanced athlete overall has the advantage, then the common wisdom of training your weakness is sound?

 

 

Unless you're like me and need to work on all 3. Tongue out



Edited by wushunut 2011-07-12 9:11 AM
2011-07-12 9:34 AM
in reply to: #3592026

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Subject: RE: Do runners have the advantage?
i have to agree, though you can win on the bike you still need a solid run split like stadler did. its those who are strongest in all 3. why i say to my running friends that im also a swimmer and biker.
2011-07-12 9:52 AM
in reply to: #3592369

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Subject: RE: Do runners have the advantage?
Fred Doucette - 2011-07-12 11:03 AM

My analogy would be like a marathon.... lots of people start off fast (too fast) and end up finishing the last 10 miles much slower than the first 16.2 miles. The runners who are running the fastest last 10 miles of a marathon are likley the fittest and fastest athletes out there. The people running the faster first 5K parts may or may not be the fittest or pacing the best etc.


I just ran some numbers from the Ottawa Marathon this year; it had mats at 10k, 21.1k and 30k and plotting finishing position versus position at each of the mats gives the following r-squared values:

10k - 0.8341
21.1k - 0.9039
30k - 0.9615

Great analogy

Shane
2011-07-12 9:58 AM
in reply to: #3592501

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Subject: RE: Do runners have the advantage?

gsmacleod - 2011-07-12 10:52 AM
Fred Doucette - 2011-07-12 11:03 AM My analogy would be like a marathon.... lots of people start off fast (too fast) and end up finishing the last 10 miles much slower than the first 16.2 miles. The runners who are running the fastest last 10 miles of a marathon are likley the fittest and fastest athletes out there. The people running the faster first 5K parts may or may not be the fittest or pacing the best etc.
I just ran some numbers from the Ottawa Marathon this year; it had mats at 10k, 21.1k and 30k and plotting finishing position versus position at each of the mats gives the following r-squared values: 10k - 0.8341 21.1k - 0.9039 30k - 0.9615 Great analogy Shane

Actually, you wouldn't want to plot the position at the mats, you'd want the relative time between the mats.

2011-07-12 10:21 AM
in reply to: #3591024

Runner
Subject: RE: Do runners have the advantage?
Those people who say runners have the advantage tend to be the same people who do not like running.



2011-07-12 10:28 AM
in reply to: #3591024

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Subject: RE: Do runners have the advantage?

I would say that swimmers have the biggest advantage by far. 

A swimmer can become a good cyclist and runner much easier than the other two can learn to swim.  In a sport that requries proficiency at 3 sports, coming into it with good swim technique goes a long way to help an athlete become competitive. 

2011-07-12 10:36 AM
in reply to: #3591500

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Subject: RE: Do runners have the advantage?
AHare - 2011-07-11 7:41 PM

Ask and you shall receive; these are from an Oly distance race a few years ago with just 

Awesome.  I just finished parsing data and wasn't looking forward to remembering how to use R (http://www.r-project.org/) for stats analysis.

That fits in with my own judgement: Swimming is next-to-useless, and cycling/running are important, with a slight edge to running.

Also, I second the attitude that running is harder to pick up than cycling.  From a swimming background I quickly picked up cycling, but running fast is hard.  I lose the majority of my positions on the run nowadays.

 

Sorry, i totally disagree with the swim is useless quote. In my race this past weekend the swim is what cost me a podium in AG. If i had maintained my swim fitness and swam the same time as last year my race would have had a much different outcome. Also, if your swim fitness is bad, it will effect your bike split, instead of going into the red in my swim i backed off and slowed down to not effect my bike, the 1m30s slower swim than last year cost me 3 places as i missed the podium by 1 minute.

As Fred said earlier, it is 1 sport, not 3, unfortunately i am only good at 1 of the 3 disciplines.

2011-07-12 10:40 AM
in reply to: #3592501

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Subject: RE: Do runners have the advantage?

gsmacleod - 2011-07-12 10:52 AM
Fred Doucette - 2011-07-12 11:03 AM My analogy would be like a marathon.... lots of people start off fast (too fast) and end up finishing the last 10 miles much slower than the first 16.2 miles. The runners who are running the fastest last 10 miles of a marathon are likley the fittest and fastest athletes out there. The people running the faster first 5K parts may or may not be the fittest or pacing the best etc.
I just ran some numbers from the Ottawa Marathon this year; it had mats at 10k, 21.1k and 30k and plotting finishing position versus position at each of the mats gives the following r-squared values: 10k - 0.8341 21.1k - 0.9039 30k - 0.9615 Great analogy Shane

But surely you wouldn't want to correlate the raw times at each mat with finishing position? The closer analogy would be to correlate the split times between each mat with finishing position.

2011-07-12 10:56 AM
in reply to: #3592369

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Subject: RE: Do runners have the advantage?
Fred Doucette - 2011-07-12 8:03 AM

Clear??


Wait....what?
2011-07-12 11:26 AM
in reply to: #3592576

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Subject: RE: Do runners have the advantage?
AndrewMT - 2011-07-12 11:28 AM

I would say that swimmers have the biggest advantage by far. 

A swimmer can become a good cyclist and runner much easier than the other two can learn to swim.  In a sport that requries proficiency at 3 sports, coming into it with good swim technique goes a long way to help an athlete become competitive. 

I think this is a slightly different point than is being argued in most of this thread, but I generally agree with it.  Take 3 pools of athletes--strong stand-alone swimmers, bikers and runners--and have them all convert to triathlon.  While you will find some good triathletes in all 3 buckets, my money is on the swimmers to churn out the most.



2011-07-12 11:28 AM
in reply to: #3592576

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Subject: RE: Do runners have the advantage?
AndrewMT - 2011-07-12 8:28 AM

I would say that swimmers have the biggest advantage by far. 

A swimmer can become a good cyclist and runner much easier than the other two can learn to swim.  In a sport that requries proficiency at 3 sports, coming into it with good swim technique goes a long way to help an athlete become competitive. 


Thank you! I was a complete non-swimmer and it's still a struggle. I go back and forth between resigning myself to being a MOP swimmer and wanting to devote a year to becoming better. So far, I'm settling for a mediocre swim
2011-07-12 11:31 AM
in reply to: #3592601

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Subject: RE: Do runners have the advantage?
colinphillips - 2011-07-12 12:40 PM

But surely you wouldn't want to correlate the raw times at each mat with finishing position? The closer analogy would be to correlate the split times between each mat with finishing position.



If I really wanted to delve into the statistics of it I would have done a more indepth analysis and looked at times/paces/etc however, for a quick and dirty look at it, just looking at the position they come through each mat should give some insight into whether they went out too hard or not.

Shane
2011-07-12 11:31 AM
in reply to: #3592706

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2011-07-12 11:47 AM
in reply to: #3592714

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Subject: RE: Do runners have the advantage?
Fred Doucette - 2011-07-12 11:31 AM
JohnnyKay - 2011-07-12 12:26 PM
AndrewMT - 2011-07-12 11:28 AM

I would say that swimmers have the biggest advantage by far. 

A swimmer can become a good cyclist and runner much easier than the other two can learn to swim.  In a sport that requries proficiency at 3 sports, coming into it with good swim technique goes a long way to help an athlete become competitive. 

I think this is a slightly different point than is being argued in most of this thread, but I generally agree with it.  Take 3 pools of athletes--strong stand-alone swimmers, bikers and runners--and have them all convert to triathlon.  While you will find some good triathletes in all 3 buckets, my money is on the swimmers to churn out the most.

. I agree with this, but as you say it's not really the point that is being argued.

Not directly, but it does tie into the point that this is one sport with three different disciplines.  To be competitive it takes proficiency in all three.  Even the elite folks who stand out in one area are incredibly strong in the other two.  IMO, reaching that high level of proficiency in all three sports definitely favors swimmers. 

I'm enjoying the discussion in this thread (mostly because I'm a stats geek), but I answered it in a different direction because at the end of the day the advantage goes to the strongest triathlete.

2011-07-12 11:49 AM
in reply to: #3591024

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Subject: RE: Do runners have the advantage?

The same type of answer I gave on the saving the legs thread is relevant here as well.

Yes, in most cases, runners have the advantage. 

Cycling, due to greatly increasing wind resistance with increasing speeds, tends to minimize the differentials between athletes of different abilities. Runners do not contend with such high wind resistance, so small differences in aerobic ability can result in large differences in pace/time/placing.

Cycling equalizes differences.

Running differentials separate.

For most typical flat to rolling courses, the fastest athlete will usually be in the 145-165lb range.  A weight at which their can still be high ABSOLUTE power numbers on the bike as well as good POWER TO WEIGHT on the run. IOW, the best triathlete.

Someone used an example of a 15% stronger cyclist racing a 15% stronger runner and stated that the cyclist would win. Well sure if by 15% stronger he meant 15% FASTER on the bike. Big difference there. To be roughly 15% faster on the run would require being roughly 15% stronger. To be 15% faster on the bike would require a lot more than that much additional power. For me to add 15% to my bike speed would require me to add 30-40% more power. So a more accurate way to state this premise would be that for a strong cyclist to beat the strong runner he would need over twice the additional aerobic capacity on the bike compared to the advantage the runner had on the run.  

Yes, you have Josh Becks and Matty Reeds and other outliers including the fast swimmers, but their results don't alter reality.



2011-07-12 12:45 PM
in reply to: #3591024

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Subject: RE: Do runners have the advantage?
Just as an aside to what Fred said, yes, a triathlon RACE is one sport effectively, one event where the cummulative time is the deciding factor. However, training for a triathlon, with the exception of a run off the bike, is compartmentalized into three seperate sports and are trained as such.

A bit more on topic in my local world, there's a 25 year old guy here I race agaoinst a lot who is about even with me on the swim and is a faster runner, like 3-4min faster in an open half maarathon then me. He's a good biker but he has yet to beat me in two races this year, an olympic and a Half. In each race, he finished in the next position behind me because his great run, which is usuaully the fastest AG run split OA, can't overcome my bike.

Edited by bryancd 2011-07-12 12:48 PM
2011-07-12 1:02 PM
in reply to: #3591024

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2011-07-12 1:19 PM
in reply to: #3592757

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Subject: RE: Do runners have the advantage?
Dave Luscan - 2011-07-12 12:49 PM

Cycling equalizes differences.

I'm obviously doing something wrong.

 

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