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2012-02-27 3:45 PM
in reply to: #3744433

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
I started late, have been trying to keep up (getting at least 3 workouts a week), but just can't hit the HR goals for most workouts.  Not sure what it is, but just can not get the HR up there and stay at that intensity.  The 3 hour rides are even harder to maintain than the shorter ones.  Guess I am just hopeless on the bike.  8(.   


2012-02-27 3:57 PM
in reply to: #4064219

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
powerman - 2012-02-24 9:13 AM

Thanks guys. I am happy about the 20' test. But my focus was the 5' so I thought that would see it more. You know how it goes, I was going to get on that bike and throw down a beat down on the 5' test.... same as last one, gave it all I had, could give no more, nearly puked, wasn't right for a good hour after. That test really hurts.

But I have never done tests before. Now I have something to work for. I'll keep working on getting better.

As some of the guys pointed out, 1) power gains are always welcome and 2) the program is designed to progress in a way that the big jump in CP will come towards the end *IF* you are consistent with the program.

The thing with the 5 min power is that it relates to VO2max and for most people VO2max is genetically determined. That said, while our max oxygen consumption might not improve much, your power at VO2max (aka pVO2max) will increase but it is always tricky and for some people somehow limited. 

We train it to try to improve it because increasing it will set your power ceiling (potential) higher hence you can grow your CP more, but also because the program is set to target specific adaptations and jump start your body to adapt in different ways very specific to endurance training. one of the adaptations we induced by improving your 5MP is to improve your body's blood stroke volume, that is, how much oxygen rich blood is pump every time your heart beats. The more it pumps the more oxygen reaches the working muscles and the more work they can do when using that oxygen to transform fuel for energy. 

So, even if your 5MP 'only' increases by say 5watts, the adaptations you achieved are there. and once you do workouts more endurance specific (at sub maximal efforts), those adaptations you achieved doing 5MP type workouts will become even much more valuable! That's why if you increase your 5MP power doesn't affect your CP as much but as soon as you improve your 20MP your CP begins to increase faster.

I hope the geeky response makes sense?

2012-02-28 1:30 PM
in reply to: #3744433

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Well... after having to take a month off with neck issues... I got back on the bike a few weeks ago... went back a few weeks from where I was when I had to stop... repeated the same week of rides a couple of times... moved to the test week and was pleasantly surprised that my 20MP was 4 watts higher than previous test and 5MP was only 3 watts less than previous... so I felt like I was back to nearly the same point before the time off...

6x4' yesterday... my first FAIL... barely got through 4 of them before form broke down... had to call it quits on #5 as I could not maintain the power without breaking form... Frown

All in all I am just happy to be back on the bike... hope to get clearance from Neurosurgeon tomorrow to swim and/or run... in the meantime... I plan on repeating this week again next week...

 

Scott

2012-02-28 1:35 PM
in reply to: #4070929

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
Oriondriver02 - 2012-02-28 3:30 PM

Well... after having to take a month off with neck issues... I got back on the bike a few weeks ago... went back a few weeks from where I was when I had to stop... repeated the same week of rides a couple of times... moved to the test week and was pleasantly surprised that my 20MP was 4 watts higher than previous test and 5MP was only 3 watts less than previous... so I felt like I was back to nearly the same point before the time off...

6x4' yesterday... my first FAIL... barely got through 4 of them before form broke down... had to call it quits on #5 as I could not maintain the power without breaking form... Frown

All in all I am just happy to be back on the bike... hope to get clearance from Neurosurgeon tomorrow to swim and/or run... in the meantime... I plan on repeating this week again next week...

 

Scott

Welcome back! 

Those 6x4s are no joke.  I've done them 5 times and twice I've failed to get through all 6 and keep the power up for them all.  It is the only workout in the program that I couldn't complete.  Keep at it!

2012-02-28 10:02 PM
in reply to: #4070929

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Hey man,  be careful with your neck.

I had to call it quits once during the 4*6 (after 4 or 5 reps).  Was really hard on myself ... but the following week when I actually finished the full set I was that much happier .

2012-02-28 10:18 PM
in reply to: #3744433

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Just did 4*10 min @ 100% FTP with 2 min rest and noticed something that I have not see before.  I ride on computrainer using ERG mode.

The RPE and HR were really high (especially in the last 2 reps (which is expected), my HR was a few  beats higher than usual and peaked at 184 BPM, as opposed to 179-180 BPM that I usually see when I do reps at 95-100% of CP, my max is 189 BPM), however at the same time my RPM dropped significantly in the last 2 reps.  I usually average about 92-94 RPM even when doing reps at CP (10, 12, 15 min, etc), this time it dropped to about 70-80 RPM (see the file below).  Any idea what this means?  Is this normal, would it have been wiser to cut the workout short?  The conditions were pretty similar to other workouts, other than I did this one in the evening (I do the majority of workouts in the morning).



2012-02-29 2:52 AM
in reply to: #3744433

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
Different gear?
2012-02-29 6:53 AM
in reply to: #4072014

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

x2...

my HR look exactly like that after an interval session, plus for what I read if u can keep your HR/Power steady on the last intervals = u can do another interval! if HR/Power below FTP (2-5%) then call it a day.

2012-02-29 8:16 AM
in reply to: #4069239

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
JorgeM - 2012-02-27 2:57 PM
powerman - 2012-02-24 9:13 AM

Thanks guys. I am happy about the 20' test. But my focus was the 5' so I thought that would see it more. You know how it goes, I was going to get on that bike and throw down a beat down on the 5' test.... same as last one, gave it all I had, could give no more, nearly puked, wasn't right for a good hour after. That test really hurts.

But I have never done tests before. Now I have something to work for. I'll keep working on getting better.

As some of the guys pointed out, 1) power gains are always welcome and 2) the program is designed to progress in a way that the big jump in CP will come towards the end *IF* you are consistent with the program.

The thing with the 5 min power is that it relates to VO2max and for most people VO2max is genetically determined. That said, while our max oxygen consumption might not improve much, your power at VO2max (aka pVO2max) will increase but it is always tricky and for some people somehow limited. 

We train it to try to improve it because increasing it will set your power ceiling (potential) higher hence you can grow your CP more, but also because the program is set to target specific adaptations and jump start your body to adapt in different ways very specific to endurance training. one of the adaptations we induced by improving your 5MP is to improve your body's blood stroke volume, that is, how much oxygen rich blood is pump every time your heart beats. The more it pumps the more oxygen reaches the working muscles and the more work they can do when using that oxygen to transform fuel for energy. 

So, even if your 5MP 'only' increases by say 5watts, the adaptations you achieved are there. and once you do workouts more endurance specific (at sub maximal efforts), those adaptations you achieved doing 5MP type workouts will become even much more valuable! That's why if you increase your 5MP power doesn't affect your CP as much but as soon as you improve your 20MP your CP begins to increase faster.

I hope the geeky response makes sense?

Awesome, thanks for your help. CP is the goal, I just was expecting something different.

And so then, I think it has been asked, but I have bookmarked pages in this thread for future use...

So what should race pace be? I'm racing HIMs, and I don't have power, but use it with TR.... but for steady state I can use LTHR and nail that number down before race day. So what pace do you want to use for race day... 95% LTHR... 90%. I know 100% like I did last year did not work so well

2012-02-29 11:34 AM
in reply to: #4072112

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

I did switch to a lower gear after second interval, but I did not think it would impact the power output or cadence (CT adjusts the resistance so that you pedal at per-determined power, no matter the cadence/gear).

 

In absence of power decrease (again CT keeps the power steady no matter what you do), how would you know when it's time to call it a day?  Any thoughts?

2012-02-29 4:08 PM
in reply to: #4071884

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
Anton84 - 2012-02-28 10:18 PM

Just did 4*10 min @ 100% FTP with 2 min rest and noticed something that I have not see before.  I ride on computrainer using ERG mode.

The RPE and HR were really high (especially in the last 2 reps (which is expected), my HR was a few  beats higher than usual and peaked at 184 BPM, as opposed to 179-180 BPM that I usually see when I do reps at 95-100% of CP, my max is 189 BPM), however at the same time my RPM dropped significantly in the last 2 reps.  I usually average about 92-94 RPM even when doing reps at CP (10, 12, 15 min, etc), this time it dropped to about 70-80 RPM (see the file below).  Any idea what this means?  Is this normal, would it have been wiser to cut the workout short?  The conditions were pretty similar to other workouts, other than I did this one in the evening (I do the majority of workouts in the morning).

This graph is a perfect example as to why training by HR can be misleading. As you notice on the graph, even though you were perfectly capable of producing the power for all 4 intervals, your HR continue to increase; notice how each set it was higher. This is because HR is not a direct measure of the work done on our muscles, it simple means how much your heart is beating. Sure, one of the adaptations we achieved through training is an increase in blood volume circulating our body (Vcirc) which is the sum of Volume stroke (Vstroke), which is how much blood is pumped each time the hearts beats, and heart rate.

Since Vstroke improves with training is the main reason why our HR tends to decrease as we get fitter; ergo, we can pump more blood with less heart beats. That said, other variables not directly related to the work done in our muscles may affect HR, your HR may increase as a result of those variable without directly affecting your ability to do work in your muscles. In this case, your HR might have increased due to dehydration, fatigue, heat, etc. but it didn't penalized you to complete the workout. 

In a long ride, sure, the HR may have give you a clue that unless you would have adjusted the intensity, drink more, etc you would have ended up slowing down. but in long rides you won't be pushing at CP or not for more than 1hr. What all this means? Well, when doing intense workouts like 20MP or CP, as long as you are riding at your current fitness level, you can successfully complete a workout (i.e. a 6x4', a 20MP, a 4x10', a 2-3x20', etc.) in spite of how much your HR increases. if you were to pay attention to your HR during these workouts, you may limit yourself losing the opportunity to experience greater fitness gains!

As for the RPE, the best way to find your optimal RPMs (cadence) is to ride at the one that allows you to maintain your power at the lowest posssible RPE. hence, if you ride at your CP and 80 RPMs makes your feel a lower RPE and riding a 90 RPMs then that cadence is better for you at that effort! The opposite is true for other athletes who have a lower RPE at a higher RPM. that's perhaps also related to our muscle fiber type make, which is mostly genetically determined and why is nonsense for coaches to suggest all athletes to ride at 'x' RPMs.

make sense?



2012-02-29 5:44 PM
in reply to: #4073686

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
JorgeM - 2012-02-29 4:08 PM
Anton84 - 2012-02-28 10:18 PM

Since Vstroke improves with training is the main reason why our HR tends to decrease as we get fitter; ergo, we can pump more blood with less heart beats. That said, other variables not directly related to the work done in our muscles may affect HR, your HR may increase as a result of those variable without directly affecting your ability to do work in your muscles. In this case, your HR might have increased due to dehydration, fatigue, heat, etc. but it didn't penalized you to complete the workout. 

In a long ride, sure, the HR may have give you a clue that unless you would have adjusted the intensity, drink more, etc you would have ended up slowing down. but in long rides you won't be pushing at CP or not for more than 1hr. What all this means? Well, when doing intense workouts like 20MP or CP, as long as you are riding at your current fitness level, you can successfully complete a workout (i.e. a 6x4', a 20MP, a 4x10', a 2-3x20', etc.) in spite of how much your HR increases. if you were to pay attention to your HR during these workouts, you may limit yourself losing the opportunity to experience greater fitness gains!

As for the RPE, the best way to find your optimal RPMs (cadence) is to ride at the one that allows you to maintain your power at the lowest posssible RPE. hence, if you ride at your CP and 80 RPMs makes your feel a lower RPE and riding a 90 RPMs then that cadence is better for you at that effort! The opposite is true for other athletes who have a lower RPE at a higher RPM. that's perhaps also related to our muscle fiber type make, which is mostly genetically determined and why is nonsense for coaches to suggest all athletes to ride at 'x' RPMs.

make sense?

Thanks Jorge:

To make sure I understand this: so it looks like at intensities below 95% of CP I work better at 90-95 RPMs, while >95% of CP effort for longer than 20-30 minutes, 70-80 RPM is better?

2012-02-29 6:38 PM
in reply to: #4073828

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
Anton84 - 2012-02-29 5:44 PM 

Thanks Jorge:

To make sure I understand this: so it looks like at intensities below 95% of CP I work better at 90-95 RPMs, while >95% of CP effort for longer than 20-30 minutes, 70-80 RPM is better?

it may be! to be sure, next time see which RPM 'feels' like your RPE is lower at the same power level.

2012-02-29 7:02 PM
in reply to: #4073883

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

man, loving this program!

I felt like I outgrew my last number already, so today I bumped the power up by 5% for each interval plus for the last one I went all out for 5 minutes!!!!

Jorge, I will kiss u if I see u around RI/MA so be careful! :PPPP

2012-03-04 7:37 AM
in reply to: #4073905

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
camaleon - 2012-02-29 7:02 PM

man, loving this program!

I felt like I outgrew my last number already, so today I bumped the power up by 5% for each interval plus for the last one I went all out for 5 minutes!!!!

Jorge, I will kiss u if I see u around RI/MA so be careful! :PPPP

maybe for the RI 70.3, but how about instead, you just buy me a beer

2012-03-05 6:42 AM
in reply to: #4079377

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
JorgeM - 2012-03-04 8:37 AM
camaleon - 2012-02-29 7:02 PM

man, loving this program!

I felt like I outgrew my last number already, so today I bumped the power up by 5% for each interval plus for the last one I went all out for 5 minutes!!!!

Jorge, I will kiss u if I see u around RI/MA so be careful! :PPPP

maybe for the RI 70.3, but how about instead, you just buy me a beer

 

I will at the finish line as a volunteer like last year!

Tips:

Swimming: the pond is a cesspool so try not to ingest any water while swimming; also, last year the swam into the sun so use dark swimming googles!

Bike: Honest bike, but the road conditions are not that great; careful with your tire selection... I did it a couple times last year with conti 4000s and the were full slices at the end.

Run: it is a honest run!

btw: trying to stretch ouch the FTP test for one more week so I time the de-load week before my indoor TT! (hoping for major improvment from the last time!)



2012-03-05 8:01 AM
in reply to: #4079377

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NH
Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
JorgeM - 2012-03-04 8:37 AM
camaleon - 2012-02-29 7:02 PM

man, loving this program!

I felt like I outgrew my last number already, so today I bumped the power up by 5% for each interval plus for the last one I went all out for 5 minutes!!!!

Jorge, I will kiss u if I see u around RI/MA so be careful! :PPPP

maybe for the RI 70.3, but how about instead, you just buy me a beer

Haha, during some of the workouts I was thinking about doing something very different to you Jorge, but now that I did my last test and see that my FTP is up about 15% this winter, maybe a kiss is in order!

2012-03-06 1:37 PM
in reply to: #4080330

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
camaleon - 2012-03-05 6:42 AM
JorgeM - 2012-03-04 8:37 AM
camaleon - 2012-02-29 7:02 PM

man, loving this program!

I felt like I outgrew my last number already, so today I bumped the power up by 5% for each interval plus for the last one I went all out for 5 minutes!!!!

Jorge, I will kiss u if I see u around RI/MA so be careful! :PPPP

maybe for the RI 70.3, but how about instead, you just buy me a beer

 

I will at the finish line as a volunteer like last year!

Tips:

Swimming: the pond is a cesspool so try not to ingest any water while swimming; also, last year the swam into the sun so use dark swimming googles!

Bike: Honest bike, but the road conditions are not that great; careful with your tire selection... I did it a couple times last year with conti 4000s and the were full slices at the end.

Run: it is a honest run!

btw: trying to stretch ouch the FTP test for one more week so I time the de-load week before my indoor TT! (hoping for major improvment from the last time!)

I did it back in 2009 when it was an ocean swim; kinda bummed they changed it. I remember the last miles of the bike were on terrible roads. The run was my favorite and managed a 1:21hr but I think they also got ride of the wall (big hill) on the run course right?

2012-03-07 8:21 AM
in reply to: #4083245

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

People going to church on Sunday complained about the traffic... that is why they changed the swim WTF... 

The last 10 miles on the bike are still very messy (road wise), plus now u have a cat5 hill around mile 30-35 (if I remember correctly), but on the other hand u have tons of times to coast down the hills and recover your legs (if you chose that game plan); we do weekly TT around that area and it does really make a diff in our bike fitness! 

On the run there is no wall anymore but still is a very tough run for most people; also, it gets hot very quickly!

2012-03-07 4:27 PM
in reply to: #3744433

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Two things. 

1. I don't think my Garmin HR is working as well as it should for workouts, it is reading way low for whatever reason.  I used it in a flat out 3 miler where I know my HR was up around 175 and it read 136.  So crap, maybe try a new batterie in the strap.  Nothing like having a broken yardstick.

2. However, my 3 hour bike ride was faster this week even though it was after the 3 miler.  Perhaps there is hope!?! I am around week 12 in the program this week.

One thing for sure is that I am working harder on the bike this year than previous years so that can't hurt ... I hope. HIM in 5 weeks. 

 

2012-03-08 5:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

As luck would have it I got sick for 3 days (Mon-Wed) on week 15!  Recovering today (Thursday), so I hope to be back at it starting Friday/Saturday.  If I were to do only 2 bike workouts on week 15, what should those be?  The goal is to put the highest test numbers on week 16.



2012-03-10 4:42 PM
in reply to: #3744433

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Royal(PITA)
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
Big public thank you to Jorge for these plans.  This was the first time I followed most of it without a derail for HM or injury.  Riding harder and not hurting.
2012-03-10 8:19 PM
in reply to: #4087591

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
Anton84 - 2012-03-08 6:32 PM

As luck would have it I got sick for 3 days (Mon-Wed) on week 15!  Recovering today (Thursday), so I hope to be back at it starting Friday/Saturday.  If I were to do only 2 bike workouts on week 15, what should those be?  The goal is to put the highest test numbers on week 16.

I would do workouts 1 and 3.

2012-03-12 9:30 AM
in reply to: #3744433


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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

I tested last week and saw improvements again and averaged 23.2mph, up from 21.9mph the previous test.  The week prior I felt incredible but for the test my HR saw an all time high for average 156 and highest at 170.  I had never seen either before on the bike so I was working way too hard obviously.  I am tempted to try again and sooner vs later because on the 2-20min intervals I was averaging around 24.2mph and felt better on the 2nd 20min effort.

 

Thanks Jorge.   

2012-03-12 2:15 PM
in reply to: #3744433

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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

de-loading and recovering this week, but ready for indoor TT next Saturday!

hoping for a good result

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